Eamonn

" a bar of soap, sitting in the bottom of ladies nylon stocking" Failure to remove the Lady is not in keeping with the G2SS and in some States a passing Policeman will take a very dim view of this. Eamonn. (I'm sorry!!)

A Piddle -Later is a hand washing station. Used after you have been to the bathroom / Nearest tree!! Some use a gallon plastic milk carton to supply water, a bar of soap with a hole for string and a some sort of bowl. The shape of the bowl dictates the design of the gadget. Round bowls normally use a tripod while square bowls tend to make it more of a camp dresser. Since we now have anti-bacterial waterless soap, the need for piddle-laters is not as great as it once was. Still it's a good place to keep the very important papers!! It can act as a reminder that people should wash their hands after visiting the bathroom. Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Aidan, It really sounds as if things are working really well. I'm a little confused as to why you want to "Win over" the Scoutmasters? If a Scout is on the receiving end of a program that he likes and if he is happy? I'm fine with him being a Scout. To be honest the Boy Scouts we have in the Ship really have at times a hard time knowing where their loyalty should lay. We have Boy Scouts from different Troops. So that along with all the other activities that are going on makes it impossible to avoid clashes. Most of the Boy Scouts tell me that they are only remaining with "Their" Troop until they reach Eagle. I don't know how the SM's feel about that? Sadly most of the Troops seem to have only a handful of older Scouts and a large number of the very young Scouts. One thing I hear a lot from these Lads who are in both a Troop and the Ship is that they dislike having to work with the "Little Kids!" I know some people are going to say that they shouldn't feel this way, but the fact of the matter is they do. If everything was as it should be, when a SM who seen that a Scout was starting to lose interest in the Troop he or she would try and direct him to a Venturing program. But that doesn't seem to happen that often and maybe (And I'm not sure!!) this is why we have so many small Crews spring up? It has been mentioned to me at times that the Ship doesn't participate in District events. The real truth is that the District doesn't offer any events for Venturing. The District has a First Aid Competition, but is or would it be fair for 11 and 12 year old Boy Scouts to compete against 18 and 19 year old Sea Scouts? I think not, the same goes for Camporees. Sure we could offer to help, but for us to provide the quality program and cover all the things we want and need to cover spending time doing this when we have so many activities is not in the best interest of the Ship. We don't invite Boy Scouts to participate as Boy Scouts in Day Camp or Pine Wood Derbies. Hey OGE, I was down your way on Saturday, in Milford PA. We picked up a Boat that was donated. Man Oh Man that was a long drive 640 miles round trip. It's a great looking boat!! So it was worth while. I had a little drive around while I was there. It really could be The Promised Land for Scouting and Scouting activities (Not bad for Sea Scouting either!!) Eamonn.

While things are not what they used to be. Which might be a good thing? It seems to me that some see a lot more in the G2SS than I ever have. Eamonn.

Quarterdeck Training is an advancement requirement for Ordinary Rank in Sea Scouting: "Complete quarterdeck training, either as a petty officer or as a prospective petty officer, as provided and required by your ship and council." So in our case it is mandatory!! Sadly there isn't at this time any real BSA resources at hand. There used to be some material on the National Quartermaster Association web page (http://www.nqma.org/) but the page isn't there any more. This of course in my book left me with an open field to do what I liked with!! I think I have enough stuff that would fill several courses. I did at first think maybe this was a waste of my time!! We only have 8 Sea Scouts who are Petty Officers.All that effort for only 8 Scouts!! Then of course it hit me. My role in all of this is to try and help these 8 Scouts lead the entire Ship and what could be more important.I ended up inviting 16 Scouts to attend 13 did. In part I invited the extras because we were hiring a building for the weekend and it brought the cost down! That and as its required we had a few that needed it, after all every Scout is "a prospective petty officer" At this time the Ship elects their officers to serve for a 12 month term, so I don't see us doing it every six months. Eamonn

I'm not an Eagle Scout. I am however a Queen's Scout. Back when I was District Chairman and again over the summer our District Advancement Chairman was working some strange shifts and I was asked to fill in. I enjoyed meeting with the Scouts and going over the plans they had made for the project. Just about every Scout I have ever met who has got or come that far is a really nice Lad. Most Scouts when they have presented their projects for approval don't seem to understand or grasp the idea of planning. As a rule we have a little chat about that. I then give them my best pet talk about it being a Leadership project and we chat about what different styles of Leadership they are going to need and use to get the task (Project) accomplished. From what has been posted I'm unsure if I have the communication skills to do this via E-mail. It does seem almost clear that there was a break down in communication somewhere along the line. It is my opinion that the Scout should be invited to attend an Eagle Scout Board of Review. I think the DAC is out of line not inviting him. (I'd take it to the Council Advancement Chair -But that's just me!!) I'd be happy to let the Board fight it out. Maybe? The DAC was wrong, maybe he wasn't very clear? Maybe a lot of things? The Board can or could: Approve the application, they could deny it, or maybe they could grant an extension if the Scout is willing to redo the project requirement. If they deny the application the Scout can then go through the appeal procedure. From what has been posted I think he would receive the Eagle Scout Rank. But I don't know what was in the E-mails? Maybe I should add that some time back someone else posted a case like this where the Scout had not got the approval and it seemed from what was posted had not communicated with the DAC. In that thread I posted that the Scout had not met the requirements and needed to redo the project. Understanding and following requirements is a leadership skill and this is a Leadership Service Project. (If my memory is working in that thread the Scout felt redoing the project was unfair and it seemed he was unwilling to redo it.) In this thread it does seem that a misunderstanding or some break down in communication is at fault and I think the BOR should try and find out what happened. Eamonn.

I'm in agreement with FScouter, Go ahead with the BOR. Let the Board work out what did and didn't happen. Isn't this part of the reason we have a BOR? Eamonn.

A couple of Lads who attended the 2001 Jambo came over the house last night. One gave me an 8 X 10 photo he had taken at the closing show. The photo is of the all the Scoutmasters in full uniform, but with dark glasses and their Jambo ball-caps on backward dancing like crazy.The Lad who gave it to me said he can't remember when he laughed as much. The dark glasses and silly hat wearing came from me!! I love to play around and at times let everyone know that even though I'm an old codger I still can let my hair down! The Sea Scouts know if they are in my car on a trip that I'm OK with them playing their I-pods through the car stereo, but I don't want to listen to the songs that are not nice. At the end of the day it all comes down to respect. I respect them and I hope that they respect me. We have a couple of younger Scouts (15 or so) who at times don't know when to say when! Discipline is very important in Sea Scouting, messing around in boats is anything but messing around!! Trying to get Scouts to understand that there is a time and a place for everything, is I think an important life lesson. I suppose I could stop playing the fool, which at times I do!! This would make things a little less confusing for the Scouts, but it wouldn't be as much fun. I was a little disappointed when in another thread someone was saying that the Troop they serve had attended a great weekend which had something to do with the war of 1812 and involved cap guns. Very soon after someone brought up the G2SS!! Come Off It!! Get A Life!! We have water fights all the time and use water guns. Yes some activities are not allowed, but don't let's get silly about this. We have Scouts who have all the equipment needed for Paintball, on trips they discuss different types of equipment, I don't know a thing about it, we as a Ship don't offer it as an activity and I have never brought it up and the Quarterdeck hasn't mentioned it. If they did I would explain the BSA guidelines. Many years ago when I was younger and the old bones didn't hurt as much, I used to wrestle and roughneck with the Scouts, I was known to participate in a game of British Bulldog (Look it up.) Thinking about it I'm not sure why? What was I trying to prove? Was I really such a bad Leader that I needed to let them know that I was bigger and stronger then there were -Sadly of course that is no longer true!! Or was I just trying to be a kid again? There was a time when I was a boy when being a good or the best fighter was very important. I'm not sure I can remember at what age it stopped being important I think it was sometime around 14 -16. While I never was very good I was on the rugby team (Hooker) and this did provide me with the protection of hanging out with the biggest and roughest (not the baddest) kids in the school. At heart I'm a big softy. I can handle just about anything, but I'm not very good with tears. I hate to see anyone cry. I know that I do have a very cruel streak inside of me and have at times let it get out of hand when OJ has pushed it a little too far. So far in 30 years as a Leader I don't think I have let it get out of hand with any youth members. I also know that at times I can be a real tease, I do my best not to let this get out of hand, when it does I'm normally trying to get my own back on someone who has upset me -Normally an adult. Not very Scout-like I know but true. I also am aware that I have a really terrible temper. When I say terrible I mean really bad. I'm so very scared of it that I go to great lengths to keep it in check and it's been so long since I last let it get the better of me that I can't remember when. I really think being aware of how I'm feeling is a very important part of being a leader. While very often just being with Scouts or Scouter's can raise my spirits, there are times when that big dark cloud hangs over and dealing with anything that might or could upset me is just the wrong thing to do. Fun is the fuel of Scouting. While I now know that "Controlled Risk" has replaced "Save Haven" I still prefer the Safe haven, where no one gets harmed in body or in spirit. I still see adults in swimming pools with kids jumping all over them, while they pick the little Lad's up and playfully toss them back into the water. I don't think this is a bad thing, but what happens when someone gets hurt or a hand ends up in the wrong place? Eamonn.

Beave old Pal, Much as I hate to be a pain. At the CD Directors conference CD'S make a pledge to follow the syllabus. "Even though it isn't in the new syllabus" Means that it isn't part of the course. I would have loved to held a pre-course meeting and the question was raised at the conference. In fact someone mentioned that they had a participant show up who was blind and hadn't bothered to mention it on any of the paper work. The reason given, by the people who had put the course together was that by design they wanted to cut back on the amount of time both the staff and participants had to devote to the course. I think purcelce does make a valid point. A lot of the new training's seem to be very similar to Wood Badge (OJ attended a OA Officer Training which was very like WB, even having the participants write goals which they were to meet before they received their patch) If we are not careful, the course might become very much a been there, done that sort of thing. I have not seen or had much to do with the new course that replaced JLTC -Heck I can't even get the name of it right NYL? There was talk in our Council of inviting Venturers to attend. Even though I didn't know the course I wasn't keen on mixing the two groups. Quarterdeck Training is real big in Sea Scouting. Sadly the Sea Scout Manual does make mention of it being needed but that's about it. The National Web Site directs me to the Sea Scout Skippers /Leader Handbook which has been out of print since BP was a Boy (Well almost!) I'll admit the temptation to "Borrow" a few bits from WB did occur to me but the Angel on my right should beat the devil on my left. I have managed to put together a fairly decent course borrowing stuff from other Sea Scouter's, the old course, venturing courses, and some stuff from White Stag. emb021, makes a valid argument about specialized training's. I kinda think we should be in the business of giving the people what they want. I have presented National Camp School Training to Cub Scout Day Camp Directors, some of these only do Day Camp and that's it. Sure they might get something from WB,but they are getting what they want and need from Camp School. While many of us live and breath Scouting, there are Scouter's who do have a hard time finding time. Adding yet another course even if it is not required in order to get the stuff we should be giving them any way just doesn't seem the way to go! We tweaked the WB course and changed a few things. (After my time!!) I really think that the time has come to take a long hard look at the Specific Training's. In our area the Cub Scouter's are not returning for the next training, it's hard enough to get them there once!! The Scoutmaster is the most boring thing I have ever sat through and does little to drive home the important things needed to manage the running of a Troop. The Mentor idea is a nice one, sadly we can't find enough Commissioners to fill Commissioner spots, finding another set of willing adults would be really hard. Maybe we should be honest and admit that in most parts of the Country Commissioner Service is just not working and rethink what service we want to offer -I'd vote for more Trained Trainers, people who could go to a unit and cover the practical stuff at meetings and maybe the odd weekend, if only as a day visitor. Or attend a few meetings and if nothing else show the Leader where the information he or she needs is in that wonderful handbook -Who knows people might start to even read the darn things and not just carry them in their Scout bag!! Eamonn.

OGE, I'm in agreement with you. I have spent a good many years on both sides of a bar. Over which time I have heard some of the not so clean jokes and not so clean stories. I have in my time retold a good number of them. Even in the bar, I was mindful of who was in earshot. I wasn't going to tell a not so clean story or joke if there were people who it upset within earshot. The last time I fought my way into OJ's room I noticed that the 101 Dalmatians Disney posters had been replaced with posters of females who while dressed certainly were not over-dressed. He had mentioned taking a poster to camp with him this summer!! I talked him out of it! A lot of the stuff that Jay Leno does late night might be suitable for late night audiences, but would not be the correct thing for family viewing. While many of us might do stuff outside of Scouts and Scouting which might not be very Scout-like, once we are with youth members or being known as Scouts (In or out of uniform) we need to use our "Scouting Manners". This is one reason I don't have any BSA or Scouting stickers on any of the cars!! Eamonn.

I think it's only fair that I state that I have issues with the way a lot of Crews go about Venturing. By the way not to change the subject I did enjoy your first two postings. I was going to reply but that's another story. Back to the thread. As you asked for my perspective I'm not going to give the book answer. However the book answer isn't that far off what I think. I think when we get the opportunity to work for the older youth it seems (To me anyway) that the vision and mission of the BSA has a real meaning and we the adults really do see the fruits of our labor. Youth of this age seem better able to communicate how and what they feel and very often do!! Venturers are not "Big Boy Scouts" any more than Boy Scouts are not "Big Cub Scouts" The BSA is to be congratulated for seeing that there was and is a need for Different courses for different horses. Sadly in my view this message has not got through to the Council and Districts. I was a Venture Scout, back in the UK, at that time Venture Scouting was the next step after Scouts. In fact to become a Queen's Scout you had to be a Venture Scout. I don't see Venturing as being the next step. It should be a program that is geared to the interests of the youth members. I get a little upset that the BSA lists High Adventure as a method of Venturing. I know Lads who quit Boy Scouting because they really dislike the programs that are called High Adventure (Philmont, N.Tier). There is or should be a place for them in Venturing. When I was looking for a place to hang my hat after serving at the Council and District level, I met a couple of older Boy Scouts who had met some Sea Scouts at the National Jamboree, they wanted to give Sea Scouting a try. So we started a Ship. I know and the other members of the Ship know that a program that is as narrow (But deep) as Sea Scouting is not for everyone, but it's not supposed to be!! At present 25% of the Ship is female, most were never in Girl Scouts, about 10% of the Boys were never in Boy Scouts,30% are active in Troops and the rest were either in Troops and quit or aged out. By design we try not to get involved in Boy Scout events. We are youth-led, which at times does cause headaches (they don't like fund raising!!) As a Ship we at times suffer through the trials and tribulations that the youth members go through, Scouts who have been dating break up and feel unsure what to do next, Scouts fall out with their parents or move from one parent to another. People who are supposed to do something fail to do it at times because there is a good reason and at times because there is no reason. Most of all I see Venturing helping to fulfill the vision and mission of the BSA. The Ship has sent Sea Scouts to packs to do Flag ceremonies (They are impressive in their whites) and talk about the Flag, the Sea Scouts have had Boy Scouts visit to learn and put knots to use, later this month we will take some Boy Scouts sailing and we hope that a couple of Troops will invite us to cover Leave No Trace,which some of our Scouts are doing as part of the Ranger Award. We did manage to lose a couple of Sea Scouts over the summer, so we are back down to about 30 Scouts. We are not in any way interested in removing active Boy Scouts into Sea Scouting, if the Boy Scouts are happy doing what they are doing, more power to them. Our Council also has a Civil War whatever Crew, I don't really know what they do, when they do it or how they go about doing it. I know that it isn't my cup of tea, but if a boy or girl were to come and express an interest in that I'd gladly give them all the information. That Crew does invite Scouts to attend their shows and I'm sure the big cannons and guns do fire up the imagination of a lot of young people. Sadly Venturing has been abused. I know when I was District Chairman chasing Quality District, if we were a couple of units shy of making the goal, I'd talk nice to a couple of Scoutmasters and before long we'd have a couple of new units. Sadly they never lasted very long as they had no real foundation and no real idea of what direction they were heading. One year we lost 6 units!! 4 Crews, that was the same year we got a new DE he came back from PDL. We met and I was talking about new units. He said "No problem, I'll start some Crews, there easy!" Just like any BSA unit Venture Crews need to be build on a strong foundation with real working support from CO, Adult Committees, and caring trained adults. We need to look at what we are doing as Stewardship. Even if the unit is new we are only looking after it until the next group comes along. One year wonders only hurt the entire program. Eamonn. I don't know where the Ohio Council is? But we are about 45 miles from Pittsburgh PA. (This message has been edited by Eamonn)

I should spin off but.. I have to own up to not thinking that everything is a Youth Protection issue. I see the Youth Protection Training more as a way of protecting everyone than something that is going to swoop down and threaten leaders who may at times show poor judgment. I really dislike being threatened. I can think of several times when I have not complied with the guidelines. Was it dumb on my part? You bet it was. However I would never do anything that I thought would hurt or harm a youth. I'm not a child abuser and would never molest anyone. I have given the Lad who was left at camp a ride home in my car, when I was the only adult. Sure I know that 20 years from now he could turn around and claim that I did something that I shouldn't. I have gone to look after a little Lad standing in the bathroom in his underwear, vomiting and feeling really sick. Sure I know that I should have gone and got another adult, but I was worried about the kid. Sure I know that anyone seeing us both in the bathroom in our underwear looked bad. Yes I have been awake at night and overheard going's on in tents that while normal, might be considered un-scout like. I choose not to take any notice. I see youth protection more as Adult protection. Following the guidelines is my way of covering my tail. When or if we start using it as a big stick it will do more harm than good. I don't claim to have a hard and fast formula for what is and what isn't abuse. The YP doesn't either. But I know it when I see it. The adult in this case made a stupid mistake. Someone needs to talk to him about it. Maybe that someone might also ask him to talk to the parents that are upset and let them know that he has made a stupid mistake and inform them that he isn't going to do it again. From reading what has been posted, I don't see that he was trying to abuse the Lad. While I now see that adults roughnecking or horse-playing with youth members is not the done thing, at one time I was guilty of it. What might be acceptable as playing with the kid next door is unacceptable in Scouting. When we make everything a YP issue, we are in fact hurting the program and undoing the good that the YP Training has to offer. (If this sounds like a rant? It's because I spent a week with a very annoying women at Philmont who tried to make everything into a YP issue.) Eamonn. Wedgies are common when Scouts are learning the Boatswain's Chair knot and using it.

Old Fred Jenkins used to say: "Don't look at me in that tone of voice" One of my old School Masters a Welshman, when he would catch me talking when I wasn't to be talking: "Are they wise words? Are they wise roman words of wisdom?" The one I never did understand was before getting whacked by a Master: "This is going to hurt me, far more than it will you." Father Coran one day when I asked him what C of E stood for: "Oh well that covers a multitude of sins."

As a rule I try and call people what they like to be called. As I have posted before I do tend to use nicknames if they don't fall under the heading of being unkind. A few months back OJ introduced to a girl who later joined the Ship, he said her name was Bruce. I thought it was a little odd. But I know that Americans can be odd!! I also remembered that when I was in my late teens we used to poke fun at the Australians (We had a lot of young Australians living around Earl's Court in London) All the Australian men were Bruce and the women were Sheila. It turns out the real name of the young Lady that OJ introduced me to is Pat. Of course everyone in the Ship uses Bruce. We get some strange looks. (She is fine with Bruce and thinks it's funny. If she didn't we would stop.) Eamonn.

scoutldr I don't think anyone is going to disagree that what happened was wrong. But the discussion seems to be about what happens next? And who does what? Most SE's are not going to step in if they know that the Committee and the CO are not doing anything. An SE is not going to go out of his way to upset a CO. As far as "In some jurisdictions, it could be considered assault and battery" That might be so, but someone would have to report it. If the 14 year old and his parents are not going to then who? Yes it was a very stupid and dumb thing to do, yes it goes against the YP guidelines, yes the guy who did it needs to be informed that it was a stupid and dumb thing to do. Sure you or I know better. But if no one does nothing -Nothing happens. It is up to the "More than one parent was upset over this" to take the action that they feel is needed. As FScouter has said it would seem that some poor choices have been made, but unless the CO or the Pack Committee makes a move, they have what they got! The SE in most cases will not get involved. Eamonn.

woodeaglevigil I really can't see why you would want to do the 21st Century course again? Anyone who has sat through the development meetings that go into presenting a course, should have a very good understanding of the course. If I were the Council Training Chair or the Council Wood Badge Advisor, I might well be talking with the CD about using you and your skills as a staffer. While I'm sure you are the nicest fellow on the planet. My big fear is that other participants are going to look too you and not the Staff. While the content / syllabus for each and every course is supposed to be the same the Course Director and the staff of each course develop the course in different ways. When I was CD,I really wanted the participants to grasp the idea of their own personal values leading them to their Vision and Mission, which will lead them to writing a worth while ticket. Not a list of tasks that just needs to be done. Other CD's have seen diversity as something that they really want to stress. The CD gets the staff to buy into this at the development meetings.Of course if you are not on staff then you haven't attended the development meetings, so if the participants look to you they are not receiving or might not be receiving the course that the CD has in mind. To be very honest if I was the CD you would be the last person that I'd want on the course as a participant. But if there was no way of preventing you from attending. I would have to think about which Patrol? And which Troop Guide? I used to like the pre-course meeting that we had in the old course. It gave the Scoutmaster an opportunity to look over the participants, meet them and get some sort of an idea who they really were and find out if they had any special skills or needs. Now everything is dependent on the paperwork that participants send in. So in some respects placing who goes in which Patrol with whom is a bit of a crap shoot. As a rule one Patrol is made up with people who do have special needs, they are placed nearest to the things that they will need or will involve less walking or traveling.. While I don't think I'm in any way a sexist, I wasn't keen on the idea of having only one female in a Patrol -I wouldn't have liked the idea of one man in a Patrol if the rest of the Patrol was female. I really did try to make the Patrols as equal as I could in regard to skills and ability. We didn't have a Patrol of Eagle Scouts and then a Patrol of Den Leaders. One problem we had was that we had our SE take the course. At times some people feel having a professional around is a great opportunity to sound off and let him have a piece of their mind. I was careful to place him with people I thought would understand that he was just a participant. In fact when the course was over a good number of the participants said what a good sport he was for taking the course. If I had to find a Patrol for you, I would place you with the Troop Guide who I thought would be able to manage you!! Someone with experience, a great sense of humor, but with a really great and hopefully a better understanding and knowledge of the program than you have. I would forewarn that person that I wanted you to be treated as a participant and that they were not to allow you to forget that you were a participant. I would also have a word with you asking that you really try and not over take or take over the Patrol. In the old Boy Scout course arriving at the Patrol site and having to get everything ready and supper cooked before the first session was done on purpose. It was supposed to bring the Patrol together and have them work as a team, even though the task was a little overwhelming. Parts of the new course are a little like that, the idea that on day one some of the tasks that are presented will overwhelm and force the Patrol to communicate and force them to work as a team, dividing up the work load and dealing with the unexpected is there for a reason. Of course if you have been through the course it isn't unexpected. I know that I would have a hard time not wanting to give my Patrol the "Edge". As an example I sat through Sea Scout Leader Advanced Training (Not Sea Badge) last January. Sadly the presenter kept trying to add his 2 cents to the course, most of which was either wrong or didn't agree with my way of thinking. I sat there and seen that I had two choices: * I could just let it ride. Or * I could be a smart Alec, interrupt and try and correct him. I choose to let it ride and when the weekend was over wrote to the organizer. But meanwhile I did talk to the other leaders from our Ship and mentioned that this guy was not right. Maybe I was wrong to have said anything? But I was ready to burst and had to tell someone. While we all want each and every presentation to be perfect, not every presentation is. While I was developing the staff I told them that if they did forget or omit something it wasn't the end of the world. They were the only people who knew and we would find a way of covering the bits that they might have missed. Having an ex-staffer there takes away this comfort zone. Also with the requirement that requires a percentage of new people to be on staff, I think you might intimidate them. Please don't think that I'm in any way being nasty to you, as I say you are the nicest person on the planet. I'd much sooner see you step up to staff a course as a Troop Guide (the best position on staff) An ASM or SPL. If one day you hope to be the CD you will have had to have been a Guide, I think that is what you should be shooting for. Barry -I don't see myself as a guru!! I do think that I spent a lot of time trying to find out what the syllabus was really trying to say. While I know that my Wood Badge days are over. (Not that I'm entirely happy with that!!) My one great hope is that one day someone will invite me to do the "Leaving A Legacy" presentation. I do think the world of the WB experience. There is a lot to be said for bringing together 60 or more people who share the same values and passion. It is and should be fun, but just like real world Scouting it's fun with a purpose. Staffers are there to serve the participants, the example they set should send the participants back to whatever they do in Scouting as being better able to serve and lead. While the course is good and fine, the real worth is found in what happens next? Maybe we should think about sending out a sheet 2 or 3 years after the course to see if those who did attend are using the "Tools" or if it was just a good time? I have avoided the discussions about the history of the course, I don't really know that much about what happened with WB on this side of the pond. I do think that having served as a staff member, I took the time to look at what I was doing and trying to do in Scouting. While I'm not bad at the Scoutcraft side of things and I really enjoy being with people especially young people, for a long time I was so busy playing with ropes, teaching how a map and a compass works, going to camp and all that good stuff, which I still think is important and does help us deliver a worth while program. I never really took the time to think about what my values are or where I was going with what I was doing. Of course if I didn't have any idea, how was I supposed to help the people I serve find their way? While it might sound conceited or big headed I'm aware that a lot of the Scouter's in our area look to me or at me as an example. A good number of the older Scouts know who I am and seem to think that most of the time I will try and do what I can to help them. If they ask a question I will give them a fair and straight answer, maybe not what they want to hear, but the truth. Scouting is very fortunate that it has so many good and dedicated adults who take the time and at times the money to work with and for the kids in the area in which they live. But we as adults need to never forget that the kids we serve are investing their time and their youth in us. We should feel honored and privileged that a young person wants to give something that he or she will never get back to us. If spending six days and a couple of hundred bucks helps us make make their investment more worthwhile, it really is a small price to pay. Eamonn.

Maybe it's because I grew up a long way away, but I like the stuff that we do that has no real aim, purpose or meaning!! A lot of it is just plain silly. All of the Sea Scouts know that if I'm driving we are at some stage going to get a little lost. We got a little lost in Maryland. I blamed the poor use of road signs. (State Route 5 is hard to follow) We stopped and asked a fellow who looked like he might be a local. He was very helpful, but chastised me for being in the wrong county!! Heck! Most times I'm unsure which county I'm in when I'm in PA!! The kindly gent gave us directions using local landmarks. The landmark we needed was a store called Wawa. For some reason Wawa struck us as being funny. When we found the store we stopped and took photos of it and for the entire weekend if Wawa could be included in a sentence it was, that along with Scouts reminding me that I was in the wrong county: "Get your Wawas out Skipper is in the wrong county!!" Summer camp this year. The theme song which no one seems to know why? Or how come? Was "Ring of Fire" by Johnnie Cash. The Scouts and when they were paddling along would sing it or use the lyrics for any situation. One weekend they chose to add "You know what I mean" to the end of every sentence." What's for breakfast if you know what I mean?" - "Eggs. -If you know what I mean." Most of these things don't last very long, rarely if ever do they cause any harm and are never planned. I'm sure some people must think we are nuts!! But the Scouts seem to get a charge out of it and it does seem to bring them closer together as a group. Eamonn.

"I thought I was wrong once! But I made a mistake" "Yes we have a youth led unit -Now tell the Boatswain that I said I want him to ..." "OK we need a little decorum. You know what decorum is? It's what we do to apples before we cook them." Eamonn.

I think just about every sane person will agree that the CM was out of line and showed poor leadership along poor judgment. Many years ago, when I was a young leader we rented our local swimming pool every Thursday. While a lot of time was spent working on Lifesaving, Swimming and that sort of thing. Most weeks ended with the Scouts trying to dunk me under the water. I would pick them up and toss them away, but it really was a free for all. It was all done in fun, no one ever got hurt or harmed in any way. But those were the good old days. I know that I wouldn't do it today or encourage anyone else to do it. I still do playfully give a Lad a softish punch on the arm and have been known to give both male and female Scouts a hug -Normally after they have received an award of some sort. It's more of a big handshake than a real hug. Any way back to the Thread. We agree the CM was in the wrong. The $64,000 question is what happens next and who does it? While the old CM,could be very much in the right, he is no longer the CM. He is a Den Leader and should devote his time and energy to leading the Den. If the CO and COR are not willing to do anything, the parents who were upset over this need to let the CO and the COR just how unhappy and upset they are. They need to let the CO know that doing nothing is just not acceptable. They also need to convey their feelings to the Pack Committee. After the CO and the Committee have made a decision or ruling they need to talk to the SE. The SE will feel a lot better working or dealing with this situation if he knows he has the backing of both the Pack Committee and the CO. I do have some very serious concerns about the Webelos Den Leader, just because he served as CM doesn't mean that he walks on water or is without sin!! If he starts meddling and interfering in the background, he is not serving the pack. My fear is that he will make a bad situation worse. He is going to be seen as an interfering old busy body!! He doesn't have a voice on the Committee and his demands will be seen as unreasonable. Most members of the Pack Management Committee do not work with youth members and do not need to take YP Training. While having the CM retake YP might be a good idea, I fail to see what good will come from having him redo NLE and Specific Training's. My feeling is that if you send an idiot to training you end up with a trained idiot, send him twice and you have a re-trained idiot. If the final outcome of this turns out to be that nothing happens (Which is what I think is going to happen.) Someone? A Commissioner or the Pack Committee Chair should have a chat with the CM and explain that what he did was wrong and why it was wrong.

With Her That Must Be Obeyed not being up to snuff, I had to cut back on the time I spent with the Ship. To be honest I was beating myself up for not doing a better job of involving more adults before we started. Our Ship's Committee is made up mostly of Moms who have daughters in the Ship. Great bunch of Ladies, very good at organizational type stuff, but not the sort that would ever want to go out on the water or camp. I have two Ship's Mate's. One is also our COR and he is also an ASM in the Troop which his two sons attend. He is a nice fellow, but really doesn't understand how Boy Scouting or Sea Scouting should work. I'm in his bad books because he wanted the Ship to go with the Troop his Lads are in to camp at Assateague State Park, next summer. While his wife and the parents of some of the Boy Scouts camped someplace near by. I'll admit that I didn't like the idea and may have influenced the Quarterdeck against the idea. But they made it very clear that they just didn't want to go. He now feels that we should tell the Sea Scouts where we are going. I tried to point out to him that selling a program that no one wants is just a waste of time and us camping with a Boy Scout Troop is not my idea or the Quarterdeck's idea of what we should be doing. He made it very clear that he isn't going to be joining us this summer. The other Ship's Mate is ex-navy. He looks great in his uniforms, loves to talk about his time in the navy, but never seems to attend anything or get anything done. He loves to attend any training that is offered, is supposed to be a Unit Commissioner?? I didn't recruit him he came and offered his services. The other night I was trying to figure out what can be done to get more active adult support? So I wrote an e-mail explaining the situation. I very carefully went through my address book selecting people who I knew had been active, who were either doing nothing or doing very little. In all about 25 names. I of course knew that this wasn't the way to do things. But being tied to the house as much as I am this seemed easy. I was really surprised when five people got back to me and volunteered. One is an Ex-District Chairman, who I worked with when I was District Commissioner, he didn't get on with the SE and quit after telling the SE what he could do with his financial goals that he wanted to impose on the District. We have served an a few WB courses together, he has a Silver Beaver and is an all round nice guy. Three all attended the WB that I Directed and one is a Lady who has a son in the Ship but was a Den Leader when I was a Cubmaster. Sadly the COR / Mate is not as happy as I am. I think maybe he thinks that he will get pushed out.This is not and never was my aim. I do think that he thought he had me over a barrel about the summer camp/trip thing. To make matters worse he missed the Ship's meeting last night and one of his son's said that he doesn't want to go with the Troop! I'm not going to get involved in that one. I have mailed out Adult Leader Apps to all the adults. So if all goes well my leader woes are over. In part this is thanks to Jamie being sick. That and me never removing a name from the address book. Eamonn. (One Happy Little Skipper!!)

Wow!! Eamonn

Having 3 Threads running that are basically the same is very boring. I really don't like the Ding, Dings!! Back home when riding a double decker bus if you dinged once it was asking the driver to stop at a request stop (The bus didn't stop at every stop you had to let him know that you wanted to get off or if you were waiting for a bus you had to stick your arm out to let him know you wanted on) A double ding was the bus conductor telling the driver no one wanted off and he needn't bother stopping. I have never taken the time to count how many threads or postings we have had on uniforms in this forum over the years. I know it's a lot. I'm almost sure that if anyone took the time they could find a posting that some has posted that agrees with their view. If you wanted you could copy it, stick it on a web site and make it seem that "Everyone" feels that way. Trying to come up with a program that meets the needs of the Scouts we have today and the ones that will follow is not an easy task. I stood in line at a check out the other day surrounded by Pokmon cards that were on clearance. Ten years ago I stood in line outside of Toys R Us in order to buy OJ a Pokmon mat, the stores couldn't keep them in stock. Thank goodness the BSA didn't have a Pokmon collectors merit badge. We do well to ask why is the membership of the BSA down? However before we start beating ourselves up we might ask: Why is attendance at Major League Baseball on the decline? Why are less people going to the movies? Why are less people joining organizations like the Elks, Rotary and other service organizations? Locally in the small town where I live less kids are signing up for softball and soccer even though we have new facilities for both. I don't think the uniform is an issue with them! NASCAR is doing a wonderful job of marketing, but NASCAR requires no participation, most NASCAR fans that I know rush home to watch it on TV, sure they buy the merchandise, but very few have ever been to see a race. Young Lads might know the names of all the drivers and what sort of car, but it is a spectator sport. A week ago the PA Game Commission announced Hunting license sales down 37 percent. Is it just me or does there seem to be a trend? We have to be very careful that we don't allow trends to spoil what might be a great product. Several wineries a few years back seen the decline in red wine sales. Many tried to boost sales by making and selling pinkish wines and for a while sales of white Zinfandel went through the roof. The Zinfandel trend did help introduce a lot of new people to wine drinking, but it was a trend and Zinfandel was soon replaced by the Merlot Wines a softer, fruitier, wine than cabernet sauvignon, but a long way from Zinfandel. If we try and follow each and every trend or fad we will end up with a mishmash.Some things might seem to work very well for a while but might given the test of time end up like the Pokmon cards. We might also have to accept that things are the way they are. I don't know what the Game Commission can do to attract more hunters? Somehow I don't think them sponsoring a racing car is the answer. Eamonn.

Over the weekend the Ship was selling artwork at our Fall Festival. The Scouts had worked out a rotation of who was going to be on duty. I looked in from time to time to see how things were going. As it was a fund raising event the Scouts were not in uniform. I stopped in when TJ was looking after the store (He missed the meeting when they divided up the shifts, so he seemed to get more than everyone else!!) He was there with his very long black hair which isn't a dye job. He was surrounded by a fair sized group of youngsters all dressed in black, some with dyed jet black hair. The shirts which of course were black had the names of rock groups on. The Clash, Slip-Knot, Sex Pistols, Black Sabbath. I went over and had a chat with them. Sure to my thinking they looked a little strange, but they were a nice group.In fact a few have said that they are thinking of attending our next meeting. I was telling Her Who Must Be Obeyed and she said it's a shame that Sea Scouts don't have Patrols, they would make a great Bat Patrol. An other Lad arrived with his girl friend. This Lad is a natural born salesperson. Very much like I'd envision a used car salesman. At one time we seen this couple with a really ugly dog, the dog was wearing a cap. He looked at me and said "I'm going to get them" Sure enough he went over made a big fuss of the dog, and next thing I knew he was introducing me to the dog, minutes later he sold the dog owners $60.00 worth of prints" All I could think of was Donald Trump. I think the press has made it very hard to hold people up as hero's any more, everyone seems to have a skeleton in the cupboard and the press / media seems to find it. Finding icons from our era to hold up or symbolize the Scout Oath and Law would not be an easy task. Eamonn.

Hi Dan, I'm going to take a wild guess that with a name like Lynch, that maybe there is a hint of Ireland in your background? I have an Aunt on my Mothers side of the family who married a really nice fellow from County Roscommon, named Lynch. I have heard a lot about the changes that Scouts Canada has made over the past few years. My cousin lives in Toronto, her son was in Cub Scouts for a while, but didn't go on to Boy Scouts, so I really don't know much about what you guys are up to. Welcome to the forum. Please don't tell the other forum members but for the most part they are a good bunch, they accepted little old me -Who isn't a native born American!! Eamonn.

I'm really not trying to be difficult but I'm having a hard time understanding what "icons from our era" might be? Eamonn