Eamonn

Hi, One of the big leadership skills is communication. For everyone to get the most out of Scouting two way communication is a must. I think if you start trying to decide who does what and telling people what they are going to do, the end result will be some unhappy people. Every person who volunteers brings something to the table, we each have different skills and interests. You need to meet with the Tiger Partners and find out : What they want to do and what they are good at. I don't know when the Tigers in the Pack you serve move on to become Wolves? Back in the day we did the Graduation at the May Pack meeting. If I were in your shoes I'd have a meeting with the adults and plan the time that the little fellows have. A what, where and who does what format taking in to account, holidays and the activities that the Pack will be doing. Of course some people will seem that they are good at everything!! Some are and you might want to start laying the foundation for them to be the next Den Leader, some people talk the talk, but don't deliver the goods, so a Plan "B" is a good idea. Be prepared to lose a few, sad but it happens. Some will need help, they have never had to do anything thing like this before. I know that we no longer use Tiger Den Coach, but you need to be ready to coach the partners that need it. But if a Partner has an Opening and a Closing, I'd let them use it. The more they do and more involved they are the more lightly they are to stay with the pack. Who knows you might have the next Cubmaster in the Den? Eamonn.

Great Stuff Please keep them coming. Just A Minute. Ask Scouts to sit down when they think one minute has passed. The Scout who is nearest the exact time is the winner. Make sure they can't see any clocks or watches!! It's really strange how quiet they get. This is a great way to calm everyone down after an activity where they have been making lots of noise. Hypothermia Knot Relay Equipment: Basin full of ice water per patrol. Thin rubber /latex Gloves one pair per Scout. (We use the food service gloves they are cheap!!) Scouts place their hands in the ice water for several minutes -While you explain all you know about hypothermia. Then while the rest of the Patrol keep their hands in the ice water you call out the knot of the week (Keep it easy) The Scouts learn how cold makes even doing a simple task (Square knot?) hard. Note if you are a nice person and have big enough containers (The big things they sell after Christmas) add a can of pop to the ice. When the relay is over they get to drink the pop. Normally they get so interested with the pop they forget about putting the ice down each others shirts -Normally but not always. Eamonn. Wing nut We have a very similar game. We have : Freeze! (no movement.) Clear the decks (Get off the ground) And Captain coming aboard. (Scouts salute and yell Aye, Aye Captain) You can then add he is deaf : They yell louder!! then you can add "He is very deaf" -They yell their heads off.

It seems to me that we are never happy. If the CO doesn't take an active interest in what the Scout Unit is doing, we complain. Then again when the CO as in this case does take an active interest we complain. Having spent about a dozen years as a leader in the UK, where we don't have really have CO's and adult leaders receive a warrant from the National Association (I think, but I'm not sure that's how the Girl Scouts manage adult leaders?)I found the BSA way of doing things really strange. I used to look at it like trying to serve two masters. I'm sure the forum members who know the history of the BSA will be able to come up with a reason or explanation as to why it is the way it is. I kinda think that James E. West had something to do with it. When I was one of them there District types!! And people would ask me about it. I would try and explain that the BSA owned the program, but the CO owned the unit (No I'm not going to talk about fast food!!) I was the CM of a Pack Chartered by the Catholic Church which I attend or as is now said I'm a member of the Parish Family. I was CM when we had the PP who didn't seem to have much time for kids was in office.He was a nice man, but it just seemed to me that he was more concerned about some of the other things that the parish was doing than about the Pack. Over half the Cubs we had were not Catholic and about 25% of the Den Leaders were non-catholic. Our COR was an Ex-Den Leader, the Dad of a Lad who didn't cross over into Boy Scouts, he was also the Church Youth Group Leader, as time passed he seemed to know less and less about what was happening in the Pack, but he was there for us when and if there was a problem. Before my term the Pack didn't have a Pack Management Committee and I had selected the Pack Committee Chair. and had trained her. I did know the Priest well, as I served on the Diocese Committee on Catholic Education. So when we had new adult applications I would meet with him and I'd give him a quick run down on who the people were. He'd ask if I knew them? I didn't always know them, but I knew of them and then he'd ask if I would vouch for them? I think if we had just presented him with the applications he would have sent them back. Most Catholic Churches I know of that charter Scout units are happy to see youth of all faiths working and playing together. Eamonn

"But I'm troubled by the idea that a COR who isn't directly involved with the unit would turn down leaders" The Priest isn't the COR, he is the Executive Officer. I'm more troubled that anyone would approve people that they nothing about. At times in our area it's harder to adopt a stray dog than become a Scout leader. The Pack is part of the Church, the Priest is the person in charge of that Church and that Parish. If I was in his shoes, you bet I'd want to know who was working with the youth in my parish. We have had a Bishop that was very pro-Scouting and did everything he could to support and promote Scouting. The Bishop that succeeded him was more of a numbers guy, he didn't want or didn't have the time to get involved in youth programs and was happy to give PP a free hand. In our Parish we had a wonderful PP who was really active in all the youth programs, sadly he moved and the PP that followed really didn't like kids. But when we had new Leader app's I would make an appointment to meet with him and fill him in with the details of all the people who had applied. Lisabob As to: "then he also bears a much deeper responsibility to help you find appropriate leaders." This isn't how it works. The Selection of new leaders is a job for the nominating committee or the organizing committee See: http://www.scouting.org/commissioners/resources/13-500.pdf If you follow the steps. The Organizational head is supposed to give his approval for the committee to ask the new adult, that is before he fills out the application. This should help avoid any hurt feelings. Eamonn.

Please post any games or things that you have done or do that add fun to your meetings. Even if you think that everyone "Knows that one" post it anyway -Not everyone does. I'll start with a couple: HEAD AND CATCH - Equipment needed a large ball ( volley ball works well but any ball works, a beach ball if you are worried about breaking stuff) Scouts form a circle, one scout in the center. He throws the ball to each Scout. As he lets go of the ball he calls either "Head it" or "Catch it" if he calls head it the Scout has to catch it and of course if he calls " Catch it" the Scout has to head it. You can play this as a gathering game having the Scout who does it wrong enter the circle and become the caller or you can play for a winner. ON THE BANK, IN THE RIVER. EQUIPMENT Needed some sort of line on the floor, chalk, or a long rope laid out across the meeting hall. One side of the line is the Bank the other is the river. A Scout calls. Everyone starts on one side of the line. The calls are: On the bank In the river Scouts start on the bank when "In the river is called they jump with both feet in the river. When on the bank is called they jump back, anyone getting it wrong is out. Once they get used to that add In the Bank On the River You can't jump on a river or in a bank so anyone who does is out, as is anyone who falls. I'll add more when some else adds one. Eamonn.

Hi Randy, Glad that the training went well. If you are going to read anything twice, please let it be The Boy Scout Handbook and the Scoutmaster Handbook (When I think I need something from the G2SS I look it up on line.) Two really hard things for an Ex-Cub Scouter are to remember that the Lads you are now working with are no longer Cub Scouts, they are Boy Scouts. When they ask you something you need to practice saying "Have you asked your Patrol Leader?" The other hard thing is to keep in mind that you serve the Troop the whole Troop and nothing but the Troop. One sure way of ruining the Boy Scouting experience for your kid is to treat him as something special. He will always be your son and you can take pride in what he does, but he has to do it. If you start treating him differently than the other Scouts, they will resent it and he will become "The Leaders Kid". I had a hard time, when a group of Lads were doing something that maybe the oughtn't to have been doing I tended to yell at my kid. OK part of it was I could remember his name!! But over time I did learn that he when he was at Scout functions was a Scout and just like all the other Scouts. Some other things I learned are. Be careful what you say when your son can hear what you say. While you might think that the COR walks like a duck, when you say on the phone and he over hears you saying it, you are not setting a very good example. Buy and wear the full correct uniform, even if no one else does -Who knows you might start a trend? Training and training's are good and wonderful, but it might just be that the Troop you are going to serve, might not do everything as the training said it should be. If you try and change everything. Chances are that it's not going to happen. This will leave you feeling frustrated, upset and looking for a new Troop, which isn't going to go over well with your son. Change takes time. One day when you are the SM you can remember all the great stuff from the training's and really make changes, but no one likes to see a new guy trying to change everything all at once. The real big thing to remember is that this organization is fueled by fun. When it's not fun the kids quit and all the good stuff and all the differences and character building we might have been able to do are lost. KISMIF. Eamonn.

"His secretary called me today to say that he had approved two of the app's, but not the third one. I asked her why, and she told me it was because he did not belong to our Parish and Father did not know him. " I'm 101% with the Priest. The Pack is part of the Church. You can bet your last dollar that if a Leader does something wrong the stand that the Council and the BSA will take is that the CO approved the adult leaders. I wish that more CO would take a long hard look at the people that they allow to take charge of our youth members!! Why the heck would anyone approve someone that they don't know? As for looking to start a new Pack? That is entirely up to you. Somehow I don't see you getting much help from the Pack that you are now in. Eamonn.

FScouter I'll spin off and start a thread. Who knows what's out there? Eagledad I don't know if what I'm seeing is the norm or not? I of course expected the girls and the Lads who had never been Scouts not to know much about planning or running a meeting. Sadly it seems that none of the Scouts know very much. When we first started the Ship all of the members were Boy Scouts. At our Organizational meeting, we somehow (I'm unsure how?)came up with the idea that the Ship would meet twice a month on Sundays. One meeting would be a planning meeting and one would be an activity. Once we set our sights on the Regatta we changed this to a weekly meeting. Then we found that Sunday wasn't the best day. Due to the small numbers at the start the meetings were not very good. I was doing everything!! The meetings were like Training Sessions. I covered a lot of the stuff they needed or I thought that they needed!! by making presentations (Some were really good). One of my pet peeves has always been Boy Scout Troops that replace Troop meetings with Merit Badge Classes and there I was doing much the same thing and to make matters worse I didn't know I was doing it. I'm a great presenter, but I'm not good enough to present for 90 minutes. The Scouts were sitting around, listening to me, then they sat some more making plans and they ended up just talking to each other. The outdoor meetings were better at least we got them moving. Once we got a real Quarterdeck up and running things got a little better, but there was still big blank spaces in the meeting plan. My big fear was that they would find playing games just silly and that they would think I was treating them like "Little Kids". We (The QD) tried to make sure that didn't happen by at first saying that no one had to join in if they didn't want to. That still stands but so far no one has wanted to not join in. The girls we have seem to be more focused on advancement. Most of the girls that have joined seem to be what might be called "Over Achievers" They are extremely bright and seem to have a "Anything Boys can do, we can do better" thing going on. The other week we were playing a silly game where everyone forms a circle and there is a Scout in the center with a rope with a boxing glove tied to the end, he starts spinning the rope and as it reaches each Scout they are to jump over it, it they get hit they are out. The final two were a boy and a girl. All the girls were cheering the girl on "Don't let them win". The boys did take up the challenge and did start cheering for the boy, but only after the girls had started. I'm unsure if it's my doing but the girls seem to resent the fact that many of the Boys have been or are Boy Scouts, it almost like they feel that these boys have some sort of unfair advantage and they want to "Rub their noses in it". One of the Scouts who is an Eagle Scout was having a problem with a bowline during a knot relay, the girls who all seem to have mastered it gave him a real tongue lashing. At times I'm a little unsure of what to do or say. This summer we had to use cat holes. One girl walked up behind one of the boys who thankfully wasn't doing anything and asked him if he was peeing? He replied that he wasn't, this led to a conversation about how much she enjoyed peeing outside! A Scout might be brave, but this Scouter remained about four steps back and didn't offer to join the conversation Eamonn.

I looked at our Ship's Meeting and I have to admit they seemed to be about as interesting as a Little Old Ladies Tea Party. For everyday meetings we don't use the Land Ship and the ceremonies that go with it. I'm now thinking that's a mistake? The meeting starts well. Whoever is in charge of the opening can start it just about any which way they please. As a rule they come up with the Pledge and either the Sea Scout Promise, the Venturing Oath (Which I still have a hard time remembering) The end of the meeting isn't bad, I get my Skippers minute and pass on wise words of wisdom, some of which seem to go over a lot of the Scouts heads!! Then the OD reads some words of inspiration. These are either very good or very bad!! We are working on putting together a little book of the good ones. The meetings last 90 minutes, the opening and closing take up about 5 minutes. The Books say that we should have a business meeting. Most of the time spend on this is a waste of time. We just seem to go over stuff that we have decided, posted on the group page, e-mailed to everyone and we now spend 15- 20 minutes re-explaining it or listening to moans and groans about it!! (Mainly the dates that clash with something and someone feels unhappy that they can't attend!!) We also have a 15-20 minute period for Instruction. These used to be good, but as the Scouts know more, finding new and exciting ways of getting this across has become harder. We are still left with about half of the meeting with little or nothing to do. We meet in the down stairs (basement?) of the local Elks. They have a kitchen and the room is set up for their weekly bingo. The room is very big. We only use half of it. We move all the tables and chairs out of the way and then move them back again. To date they have never complained. The room has a false ceiling. To help fill in some of the time I started introducing some of the Boy Scout games that we used in the UK. I was a little scared at first. I thought that our Scouts were way to old and these were not very cool. I was wrong they seem to really enjoy them and the Crews like the inter-crew competition. Some are a little rough and tumble and I'm mindful that we have female Sea Scouts. I'm aware that we can't damage the building. Most of these don't require a lot of equipment and are not rocket science. The Boatswain is in charge of planning the meeting,we now add a couple of new games to each meeting. If I can explain how they should be ran he leads them or gets one of the officers to run them, if not I step up to the plate. At the end of the meeting when everyone is moving the chairs back we evaluate the meeting and give each activity a star rating. The rules and how the game was /is played is entered into the Ship's Log. We have space in the elks to store stuff and have started a collection of "Game Stuff"; Bean bags, old boxing gloves, different sized balls. All the Scouts now say that the meetings are more fun. We try and make some of the games instructional, some fall under the heading of "Team Building", but most are just fun and while I could pretend that they are about fair play, doing your best and all that type of thing, which they are!! The main reason for having them is to make the meetings more fun. I have been really surprised that even our older Scouts really get into this stuff. I thought that they had done it all before. But it seems Troops are not doing this sort of thing -Which to be honest is really helping our meetings. Scouts are leaving the meeting hot and sweaty, but happy. Eamonn.

Saying No can at times be really hard. I have at times asked people to do something at the very last minute. The people I ask are the people I know that have a hard time saying No. We all need to take a time out and look at what we are doing. We all lead very different lives. When we think about what is important, my list of priorities is going to a little different than everyone else's. Trying to find the balance between "Help other people at all times" and "Do my best" can be a real challenge. I was talking with a Sea Scouter not so long ago. He was doing something with our Ship, I was in charge of getting the pizza. Jokingly when I asked him to come and get some he said that there were two things that no one ever had to ask him to do twice, one was eat and the was sail his boat! I used to be that way about Scouting. Of course I liked nothing more than getting away, spending time with people that I like and doing things that I think I'm good at. Even when I was self-employed I'd pay someone to do what I should have been doing just so I could get away and do my stuff. Sure I'd moan and make noises, but I think deep down I was glad that they had asked. Saying no to something that I really enjoy, is really hard for me. After the Ship got started I was invited to return as Council Training Chair. I love training, but I'd make a promise to myself?? That I wanted to be back working with the youth. One big problem with a small unit is that five or six members not showing up can ruin the entire meeting, of course with more members this isn't such a big deal. We also need to remember that people make demands on the youth members as well. For the bigger events I try and get parent permission forms out and returned a fair amount of time ahead. The QD understands how much organization I now have to put into getting away and have set minimum numbers by date. If we don't have the required number by such a date the event is canceled. I of course feel bad for the Scouts that did sign up and hate letting them down. When I did accept that last minute request, I did at times feel that I was doing my bit to help, but on the other side of the coin, I was letting my wife down. Even if we had nothing planned and everything was ship shape, taking off at the tip of a hat and leaving her home alone wasn't much fun for her. Returning home and telling her what a great time I'd had was down right dangerous!! Eamonn.

I don't like popcorn. I really like Cookies!! As for: " The same people who complain about the price of PC are the same ones who won't think twice about paying $3.50 for a bottled water or $6 for a bottle of beer or $7 for a glass of wine at a concert or ball game." Think twice? I complain all the way home. I also complained about the price of a tube of Pringles at the Jamboree. $5.00 at the Jamo. $1.29 at home. Eamonn

Of course it could be that the answers you got were the right answers? Two plus Two will always be four, no matter how many times you ask. Eamonn

I thought we'd covered this!! Take a look at http://www.scouter.com/Forums/postings.asp?action=ReplyForm&threadID=74647&forumID=6 Sems a little odd that the same person asks the same question 2 years later? "Eagle Scout Song Posted: Saturday, 10/9/2004: 10:53:00 AM BSAT17SPL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For the past couple of years at my summer camp one of the councilors would call all the Eagle scouts up to the front of the fire bowl and he would play a song on his guitar,"Eagle on his Chest", is how it went, but I don't know the name of the song or who wrote it. So, if any of you know of it or know where I can get it I would really appreaciate it, I really like the song. Eamonn. (This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Some little while back someone posted a list of things that every boy should be able to do. I think it was OGE? I can't remember what was on the list, but seem to remember that there was something about knowing what fork to use. With Her That Must Be Obeyed, not feeling up to snuff, I'm learning a lot of things that I either didn't know or choose not to know. Some of my new pearls of wisdom are: A full dishwasher needs to be emptied or run ASAP, it not the dishes pile up in the sink and the dishwasher is half full before you start. That new gizmo's that cleans showers doesn't work very well. There is no such thing as leftovers when you have a teenager, they are just delayed courses. More detergent doesn't get things cleaner. Cleaning the house in a mad rush before the cleaning lady comes is a waste of time! The quality of picture on a TV is greatly improved if it isn't covered in dust. Dog hairs are a pain. I'm glad we don't have cats! Teenagers look at lamb chops as appetizers. Duvets are great!! Dog feeding bowls do need to be washed. Running the vacuum cleaner everyday is easier than doing it once a week. Fabreeze (Smelly Stuff) works. Running the vacuum everyday, wearing a Walkman and singing lands you in hot water. Now I'm doing the vacuuming you will take your shoes off. Junk mail is a pain. Paying bills when they arrive seems less painful than waiting. We used less electricity in July this year than we did last year. I know because I read the bill!! A 85-pound dog running to the dog keeps uninvited guests visits very short.It helps keep the pile of unwanted papers down as well. A 85-pound muddy dog makes a real mess. I'm glad that I don't like pop-tarts. Eamonn.

" guess what I need to do is pull out my Explorer Program Helps that would be relevant, and scan them: Explorers with Disabilities Program Helps Exploring High Adventure Guide Sports Exploring Program Helps Explorer Program Helps for Youth Groups of all Faiths Problem will be finding a place to get them on-line. Have to see if the USScouting Service Project people will post them." emb021 That would be great. But you shouldn't have to. If (And I can't support this with any numbers)it seems that most Venturing Units have Ex-Boy Scout Leaders as the adult leaders and these guys are like me, they want and need a easy to follow program. While the idea of having a place where a group of young adults can get together and share a common interest sounds great and does I'll admit in some units work. It seems to me that in most cases it's not working. Most of these Ex-Boy Scouter's opt for the high adventure tag, because they don't have the skill or interest that falls into one of the areas. Why can't we allow the young person to join a Crew where his or her pals are and then allow them to use a program which allows them to pick and choose what area they want to work in. When I look at all the different areas of interest my 18 year old has, he doesn't really want to be tied down to a Crew that concentrates and follows a specialized pursuit. He is a Sea Scout, in part because he is my kid!! But we are the only show in town that is delivering the goods and can be seen to deliver the goods. Right now he is into multimedia, it seems that our new $7,000.00 video camera has become part of him. He is using it to make a promotion video for the Ship. I have Sea Scouts that are really into dance, as yet I'm still working on a way to bring what they do into what the Ship does. I'm sure given a little time I'll find something. Allowing the young person to remain with their pals and then follow their interests rather than trying to units that cater to the interest has to be the way to go. If this means a total re-write of the program? I'm all for it. Eamonn.

Have to admit that when we have done the WB Project Planning, the project has got in the way. Everyone seems to want to jump right in and complete the task. While the task is fun and the Staff go a little overboard to make it so, it lacks challenge. Kind of like making plans to eat a candy bar. The five steps are much the same as the 7 steps, but I happen to think that the 7 work better with youth members. For our QD training I had a fellow who used to be the project planner for ABB cover planning. He is an old time Scouter, has been the Scoutmaster for a lot of the old WB courses and an engineer (Also our Area President) I was worried that he was going to come up with some project that would have to do with engineering and be way over the Scouts and my head (not hard in my case!!) I was very surprised when the project he came up with was to make an apple pie!! The number of small steps needed to make a apple pie meant that they really had to think about what they needed to do, in what order they needed to do them, writing the plan down and assigning tasks and responsibility for who was going to do what. I like the idea that it really did show how good planning and team work pays off. Once they had made the pie, they baked it and ate it. If I were re-writing the WB course, I'd replace the rocket with a pie. But no one has asked!! NIscouter, Maybe if you grab your group,and ask them to plan to make a pie and then make it -They will then grasp the idea of planning? Have all the stuff needed on hand, while the pie is baking you can cover other stuff. Eamonn.

If you are a "Traditional" Sea Scout Ship, following the Sea Scout manual working on advancements will fall into place. Once our members started mixing with other Sea Scout Ship's they became very interested in working on advancement. We have a monthly theme and the Quarterdeck with some help from me (we are still newbies!) plan the meeting around the theme. If you can get to the Regatta over Memorial Day weekend, the Boarding Manual and events from last year are still on line, you will find a lot of the events are things that the Scouts need anyway. We used this to spur our Scouts on. Thanks to you and your help, we now have a new 21 foot boat to work on over the winter, but some of the Scouts are looking at Venturing Awards that they are interested in. I'm not pushing, this is entirely up to them. I'm willing to help where I can and help them find the resources they need. All of our Sea Scouts are expected to own a Sea Scout manual when they join the Ship. Most take it home and come back very excited with the idea that they are going to be doing the activities needed to advance. Last week at the QD-Meeting Sarah gave me a hard time for not spending more time on Navigation and relative bearings. Navigation is the theme for November, Sarah is making two boards one with compass points and one with bearings (lots of cup-hooks) I think you will enjoy the Winter Training Weekend, we plan to be there if there isn't a ton of snow!! Eamonn.

Barry You are of course correct, the bathroom on a boat is indeed "The Head" a term used for both male and female heads. But we have only very small boats. In trying to follow LNT, if there is a facility's near by we encourage our Scouts to use it. NIscouter - The Steps: 1. Consider the task. This involves what has to be done, who does what, when, where, and how. 2. Consider the resources. What time is available? What are the skills of the group? What equipment and supplies are needed and available? What other items should be considered? 3. Consider alternatives. What happens if something goes wrong? What are the emergency procedures? What is the alternate plan? Could the alternate plan be better than the original plan? 4. Reach a decision. Who has the responsibility? Is a poor decision better than no decision? Is no decision a decision? Is a group decision best? A decision usually is needed at every step in the process. 5. Write down the plan. The act of writing down an action plan may cause it to be revised or refined. The final plan might need considerable discussion. 6. Put the plan into action. All too often, great plans are formed but never followed. 7. Evaluate. Evaluation must take place all during this process. As each step is taken, it is evaluated against the previous steps to assure that the original task is still being considered. Of these 7 steps I consider step 6 to be the most important. After all what's the point if nothing ever happens? I'm also big on Step 7. However it does need to really be a well run reflection and not a finger pointing or session that is about placing blame. This is where the real learning takes place. Some units call this "Thorns and Roses" and ask those participating to come up with the best thing that happened and the worst thing that happened. I kinda think at times this only skims over the surface and I'm not really keen on Scouts trying to look for the worst thing that happened. Reflections can be over done. They were real big in WB before the course changed and there was a joke that asked "How many Scouter's does it take to change a light bulb?" "Eight, one to change the bulb and seven to reflect on it." We could without a lot of effort go over the list with the project you have in mind /at hand. If so just yell!! While I think of it. We could talk about setting our Scouts up for failure. I don't think I am capable of doing that on purpose, no matter how great a lesson it might be. If I see or notice that something hasn't been done I will kinda hint around till such a time as it gets done. At times the Scouts will do things differently than I might have done, sitting back and seeing what happens is hard for me, but I work really hard at it. Some adults just can't accept this and never will. You need to do everything in your power to keep them away from the Scouts doing the planning. From what you posted it seems that the Committee is more interested in the final outcome than they are about what the Scouts learn on the way. - You will have to find a way of keeping them happy while keeping them in their cage. You might also want to look at the 7 steps of problem solving. Solving a problem is a type of planning, developing a plan is a type of problem solving. Substitute the word problem for the word task, and the seven steps can be used in either case. When faced with a specific project to complete or a problem to solve, a process known as "verbal rehearsal" works well and is easily understood by boys. Here the members of the group literally "talk it up" as they decide how to approach the project or problem. As in classic problem-solving, seven steps are involved. 1. What is the problem? A problem is any situation that a group may need or want to do something about. A clear understanding of the problem. is needed before the group can set a goal. 2. What's our goal? A goal redefines the problem into a positive statement that answers the question, "What do we want?" A goal must be important to the group and must be realistic, not based on wishful thinking. A real goal should require the groups best effort, and members should feel good after reaching it. 3. Stop and think. Here the group should stop talking and allow each person to examine the problem and goal before continuing to the next step. Often boys--and adults--take the first suggestion that is offered and jump directly into action. If group members take a few moments to think and form their ideas. they will be able to add some original thought to a plan to be followed. 4. Make a plan. A good planner is always looking for options. The ability to think of a large number of possible pathways to reach a goal is an important skill. "What happens if... ?" examines the consequences of a particular course of action. For each alternative there are pros and cons. Once the alternatives and consequences have been discussed, a decision is made on a start-to-finish plan. 5. Do it. Action must follow the planning. if the group has discussed the plan in enough detail, each member will know how to proceed. 6. Keep at it. Nothing worthy of achieving is gained without endurance. The group must recognize that before a plan is abandoned, sustained effort is needed. Sometimes only a small adjustment in the plan is required to make it work. 7. How did it go? Was the goal attained? Did we give our best effort? What might have been changed? It is important to evaluate the entire problem-solving process so that the result will be a better plan next time Someone spoke about eating an elephant? This is a lot easier if you have a plan and the plan has everyone eating a little bit. All too often, this youth led idea becomes the SPL doing all the work -That isn't how it should work. Eamonn. (This message has been edited by Eamonn)

I'm really sold on the: Train them. Trust them. Let them lead idea. Of course this isn't something that happens over night. All too often someone will attend a training, hear about this, return to the unit on a Training high and inform the Scouts that the unit is now a youth led unit. At the next officers meeting, the youth sit there with that deer caught in the headlights look. We have several Eagle Scouts in the Ship who couldn't plan a trip to the bathroom without some help. When we first started the Ship most of the "Where we are going and what we are going to do" ideas came from me. We had just started and if someone hadn't come up with something we'd end up doing nothing and we would have been dead before we even reached the water. After the Ship's election, I started training our youth leaders. We went away for a weekend and I hit them with our Quarterdeck Training. It was all good stuff. We had movies, games, all sorts of presentations, ate a lot and ate some more. Everyone said it was a wonderful weekend. I came home with a head so swollen I hardly made it through the door. Soon after we had planned to go Caving. Not a hard task/trip to plan. we had Considered the task.This involved what had to be done, who does what, when, where, and how. The Scouts had chosen Laurel Caverns, so we knew where we were going. We knew we wanted to go caving, they had picked out when they wanted to go and as the caves are only a 20 minute drive they knew that we could use use the leaders cars. This was all decided by committee. We had reached a decision. Now it was time to break up the task into who was going to do what. I had met with the Boatswain before the meeting and nudged /helped him with coming up with a list of what had to be done. What would it cost? What times were available? Did everyone know how to get to the caves? What gear would we need? Were there forms that needed to be completed and if so by who? He went into the meeting. He seen the list and was at first a little overwhelmed. He thought it was all down to him!! That's when we had a chat about shared leadership and delegation!! As most of what we wanted to know was on the Laurel Caverns web site, the Yeoman offered to look it all up. She would keep the Boatswain informed and share the information with the other Ship's members. We had failed to Consider the alternatives. Sure enough Murphy's Law would have it that the date they wanted was not available the Caverns closed for the winter the week before!! The alternative was to change the date and go when the Caverns were open or find some other caves!! We (they had to make a decision) The plan had been written down at the Quarterdeck Meeting, but now changes had to be made. The next full meeting of the Quarterdeck wouldn't leave enough time to get everything done. So the Yeoman contacted the Boatswain and explained the situation. He called me, asking what to do? I asked him what his options were? We went over them together: Find out about other caves. Change the date. Cancel the activity. He thought changing the date would be the best idea. But this brought a new set of problems . He now had to reconsider the resources. Would the Leaders who were providing the transportation be available on this new date? What else was going on that weekend? He talked with the Yeoman, they send out e-mails and talked with the adults. We went caving. After the event we reflected on the event and how it was carried out. The minutes of the Quarterdeck show that everyone had fun and the event was a success. It also shows that maybe we could have handled/managed the release forms that the Caves required better and relying on e-mails and having parents down load the forms doesn't work in part because parents and Scouts don't have the same e-mail address and some Scouts don't share stuff with their parents. We might have done a better job of informing everyone how dirty and wet they would get and while a change of clothes was mentioned it wasn't stressed. We had stopped to eat on the way home, but hadn't told everyone that we would and that they would need cash. They had tried to plan a Halloween Dance, they did a really great job only thing was it turned out to be a Valentine's Day Dance and we lost $45.00. While we do cover the 7 steps of planning in our Quarterdeck Training, the real training is very much on the job training. My role as Skipper is very much trying to guide by asking a lot of: "Have you?" or "Did you?" or "What about trying?" type questions. The dance lost $45.00 because there was a break down of communication and someone went ahead and booked a DJ who was too expensive and then took it on themselves to offer a reduced price ticket for couples. No one was happy that we had lost the cash!! But by using the reflection we seen what had gone wrong, we as a Quarterdeck seen that while the person who had booked the DJ was at fault, there was enough "blame" to go round and we needed to look at some areas and improve how we managed them. You might want to sit down with the group that you are working with. For a little while put the trip to one side and go over the 7 steps. Have them elect a Team Leader/Go to person. This is the person you need to work with. Help him plan meetings that will cover what needs to be done, explain to him that he needs to delegate tasks to others and hold them accountable for doing them. You might want to check with him and the person doing the task to see how things are coming along? If it seems something isn't working, go to the Team Leader and let him know, be ready and willing to ask him what he is going to do about it. The easy thing would be to jump in and fix the problem, but that isn't what we are about!! Asking the right questions and following up will do more. Eamonn.

"I am a committee chair. I need a uniform, but why can't I, who deals almost exclusively with parents, wear a blue blazer, grey skirt, floppy neck tie, and blue pumps? Why is this a "formal" uniform limited to "professional occasions?" Wearing what you like is very much up to you! However I don't think too many people outside of other people in Scouting would know that it was a uniform. If the Committee is going to be uniformed a uniformed uniform would seem to me the best way to go. Our last DE,is a female, she didn't start working for the BSA till her late 40's. I think the world of her and she remains one of my best friends. She hated the field uniform with a passion. This is a Lady who will spend over $800.00 on a purse, drives a really nice Mercedes and before she came to work for us was happier playing bridge at the Country club (Shes a good golfer too.) But when it came to R/T or mixing with the Scouters she wore the field uniform. By wearing it she was in many ways telling everyone that we are in the same boat, working toward the same goal. There are better quality uniforms available at a higher cost, OJ my son tells me that everybody that's anybody in the OA wears the better quality. I agreed but informed him that as long as I was paying half, I'd pay for half of the cheaper uniforms. Eamonn. I happen to think that females in the pro uniform look like Air hostesses from a bygone age. But that's just me!(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

I'll admit to not being the brightest light on the Christmas tree. Maybe just maybe? I'm not where I should be? I however like to think that I'm a fairly good Scouter. I like kids, I enjoy spending time with young people and over the years have devoted a lot of time, energy and some cash to become good at being a Scouter. While there are some Boy Scout Troops that do a wonderful job of understanding and retaining older Scouts. A good many don't. When I read in this forum of older Scouts being the 14 and 15 year old Scouts, it seems to me that something somewhere has gone wrong. Because I'm kinda lazy and because I have spent the last 31 years being a run of the mill everyday Scouter, I really don't have any special skills. Sure I'm a RD and know a lot about English History. But when it comes to a real skill that would attract older youth to come along and join in with me -I just don't cut the mustard. Over the past 30 years I have done a lot of different activities, I have taken Scouts hiking, back packing, camping, canoeing, kayaking, rappelling, rock climbing, caving. I enjoy camping with Scouts and love pioneering, messing around with ropes. I am bright enough to know that all of these activities were part of the game which hopefully pass on to the participants skills they didn't realize were being passed on. When I noticed that we (Scouting) seemed to be losing a lot of really nice kids for lots of different reasons I wanted to do something about it. I read most of the material that is out there on Venturing and I was confused. Hey -I'm a Boy Scouter!! I took the Training's. What a waste of my time!! I wanted to come away with knowing how to run a Venture Crew. I came away with an update on Ages and Stages. "You need to go to Powder Horn" I was told. "It's great you get to do all this fun stuff" But I've done all that fun stuff!! "But you'll learn all the local resources" But I can get that from the yellow pages or on line. "But you'll have so much fun!!" I'm all for fun but spending time and money to go play with a bunch of adults? No thank you. I want a program I can understand. I don't care what options you put in it. I really don't want some mismash rehashed badly thought out left over 1950's program that just doesn't seem to meet my needs or the needs of the youth I want to serve. I would like to see a program that everyone can understand and do something to help grow. I'm sad that Councils, Scout Executives and DE's see Venturing as a nice thing to help show membership growth, but are not providing any real support or service. I think in part because they don't understand the mismash that we have. If one tenth of the hard work and effort that is put into providing services for Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts were to be put into Venturing, maybe just maybe the hype about it being the fastest growing program would ring true. I opted to become a Sea Scouter, not because I'm that great with boats or sailing, but because I could understand the program. I can help our youth leaders plan and carry out what they want to do, because I understand where we are trying to get to. Yes we do at times look at some of what is in Venturing and do take what we need or what we want to do. Not everything we do is Sea Scouting, but when we meet the week after a hike or going caving we are back to being Sea Scouts and I'm back with a program that is clearly defined and easy to follow. While I'm out of my tree. I also happen to think that a lot of the things that the "Powers That Be" say our youth don't want or need is a load of balderdash. The youth I serve like working toward a clearly defined goal, they want to work on advancement, they are happy with their uniforms, they enjoy the ceremonial parts. Sure they also enjoy the all night bowling, dances, laying on a beach and doing nothing. But I'm not clever enough to come up with a program that is all about going bowling, dances and lazing on a beach, all of that is just a by-product of what we are about. Eamonn.

I'm unsure if I can or will answer the question. As I see it. A lot of the adults in Venturing don't really know enough about what it is or could be. We have the Units that seem to be very much like a youth club. Nothing wrong with that in my book. But at times they seem to be like the scene from the Disney Jungle Book movie where the vultures are on a tree asking each other: "What shall we do?" "I don't know - What do you want to do?" "I don't know". (They sound very much like four Lad's from Liverpool). After a while with no real focus and no real plan they become bored and don't do anything. Also groups like this don't do a very good job of accepting or recruiting new members. So they seem to fall apart after a fairly short time. We have the Units that were put together to help meet goals. A group of older Boy Scouts who I think might be better off and we would serve them better by allowing them to remain in the Troop in a Venture Patrol. I do know that a lot of SM's feel that these older Boy Scouts should be doing what they can to help train the younger Scouts. However when I look at what we in our area are offering older Boy Scouts, it isn't that good. The older Scouts for various reasons don't attend that many Troop meetings and this upsets the Scoutmasters, with mixed age Patrols it makes planning Patrol activities very hard. Some local Troops have formed Eagle Patrols that are for the Scouts who have earned Eagle Scout rank. Sadly when I visited these Troops the Eagle Patrol really had nothing to do and stood around trying to amuse themselves, which disrupted the Troop meeting and the adult leaders. Kinda like having a Den Chief. Great to have if you give or find him something worth while to do with the younger Lads, but a real pain when he finds his own something to do. While I never had any dealings with the Exploring program either as it was or as it is!! There is it seems to me a line which is at hard at times to see as to if a Venturing Crew should be an Exploring Post or not? A fellow I know was the Adult Leader of a Exploring Post which done a lot of stuff with radios, when Venturing came along he became the Advisor of a Crew which does a lot of stuff with radios. He has served on both the National Exploring Committee and the National Venturing Committee. (He works for NASA) The youth that join that Crew know that they are joining a Crew that does a lot of stuff with radios. The Crew has been up and running for a good many years and seems to meet the needs of the youth that join. Back when I was serving at the District and Council level, I was trying very hard to start new Venturing Crews. One problem I kept running into when I met with organizations who I was hoping would come on board as CO's was that I wasn't bringing very much to the table. -I didn't have a very clear outline as to what the youth who would join would do. That and it seemed a lot of organizations didn't need the BSA to help them (the organization) provide a program as they had one in place. I talked with local Volunteer Fire Companies, they have a Junior Fireman program, I talked with the Wild Turkey organization, they have a youth program, I talked with my church they have a Pack a Troop and a Youth Group, they almost came on board but the age group didn't work. At the risk of sounding like an old fuddy-duddy, I think the youth members like the idea of knowing what they are signing up for and what they are in for. Let the youth who are interested in doing whatever it is they are interested in doing follow that path, it might be Radios or fly fishing. We have way too many small Crews who claim to be High Adventure and are just not delivering the goods. In our District we have one Crew where all the members are Boy Scouts and the only thing they do is help out at Camporees, when the Lad leaves the Troop he leaves the Crew. I was a little disappointed that the National Flag Ship this year isn't a coed Ship. I think a good mix of male and female youth is the mark of a good Venturing program. Yes I know that Crews don't have to be coed. Maybe what I'm trying to say is that I'd be happier if Crews were more specialized. Boy Scouts has merit badges that cover just about any and every interest that a Lad might want to take a look at, but the older youth really don't have the time to be "Window Shopping" a good many have already decided what sort of activities they like and don't like. If and when we stop thinking of Venturers and Venturing as being an older Boy Scout program, we will really do a better job of serving the youth and meeting their needs. I'm OK with a group of older youth members who want to follow just about anything that they find interesting. I'm fully aware how hard it can be to find a CO that wants to charter a group. Maybe the natural scheme of things will be that Crews will spring up and be around for a while and then die, while another one springs up and is around for a while? As long as we have Crews that hang on to the shirt tails of Boy Scout Troops, finding the difference is going to be tough. Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Thinking about it!! I think we are lucky that we are Sea Scouts. While I do know that we are part of Venturing, even though it seems that at times the Venturing Division forgets that we are!! When people look at us or talk about us they seem to know that we are different from Boy Scouts. We look different in our uniforms. Our focus is different. OK, so at times we do feel that we could do without all the invitations to do flag ceremonies. Maybe the tag on the T-shirts that the Scouts came up with, which has the Saint Brendan's Cross and the words "Not Your Little Brother's Boy Scout Troop" does help remind everyone that we not Boy Scouts!! While we do every now and then dip into the Venturing Handbook and have some Sea Scouts working toward Venturing Awards, for the most part we are busy doing Sea Scout stuff. We do belong to the BSA family. I'm not sure if we think about how or if we relate to the Scouting program -We are part of the Scouting program, just as Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and I suppose Varsity Scouts are. Maybe if High Adventure Venturers were to wear helmets, carry rappelling ropes and looked the part the message that these youth members are not the Garbage Crew /Detail for District and Council events might ring out across the land. But we are so very lucky, we have a very easily understood and laid out advancement plan. Most of the Sea Scout Ship's I know or have met, do deliver the goods. Sadly I can't say the same about High Adventure Crews. It's kinda sad, that where we are located we have just about everything that a high adventure unit might need close at hand. You name it and I bet I can find a local resourse for it. (Well almost) Many of the Crews in our area that claim to be high adventure are led by car camping ex-ASM's who wouldn't know high adventure if it came and bit them on the big toe. Sure in the Council we have a few exceptional Troops, but they really are the exception and not the rule. The District offers 3 Camporees a year, normally held at one of the two Council managed camp sites. There goes 3 months of the year, summer camp at the council camp. - 4 months gone. Nothing happening a month after camp or in December. - 6 months gone. The older Scouts are not being challenged, so they start to vote with their feet. Along comes the ASM who was a Scout in this very same run of the mill same old same old program, he starts a Crew and soon after the crew is camping with the troop, but the older guys are driving to the camp site and picking up late night pizza. I'm glad we are Sea Scouts!! Eamonn.

There was a description in the old Boy Scout WB course. If I remember correctly it was part of the communication presentation. Eamonn.

While asking the other Scouts (PLC?)might be a good idea. The Scout Troop does not belong to the Scouts any more than it belongs to the leaders. The CO has the final word on who is in and who isn't. From what has been posted, I feel that I don't have enough information to form an opinion. I do wonder what the "Several assistant Scoutmasters are vehemently opposed to this" will do if the CO goes ahead and invites the Lad back? At the end of the day, they really have no say in the matter. Eamonn.