Eagledad

I'm quite sure sure you would stand up the same way of a program that you truly felt was dangerous to kids. You might have already said something similar about a political party or party policy. Inspired by his passion, he is trying to prevent kids from getting hurt. Barry

We get two camps to separate the scouts and adults. Then it doesn't matter how many adults attend. It doesn't cost anymore and the logistics have a lot of advantages for a boy run program. Generally the camps are just across the road or trail from each other. Barry

We define it through the law and oath. Of course everyone has their opinions on scout like behavior as well, but the BSA does reference doing our best to god. God is the holding place for being a moral program. Once god is taken out, man becomes the source for morality. As I said in another post, once man takes credit for good and bad behavior, it's over because how can a scout find reference of his behavior when it depends on his scoutmasters emotions of the moment. Pragmatically, only god or God can ever be the source of morality in a values based program. Barry

I can understand that you disagree or that you believe it's over the top, but I don't believe it was intended to be a personal attack at the readers. I read it more as venting. Legacylost, and many many others believe that the changes by the BSA could be more harmful to boys than before. While I wouldn't express myself in the same manner legacylost, I find his post refreshingly honest. Barry

It seems your last paragraph conflicts with the first. How does one share their differences and not sound personal or even derogatory. I have made many of what I felt were objective nonpartisan comments on this forum over the years that resulted in a lot of emotional responses. Your words could be interpreted as anti religious. Is that what you mean? Maybe you are just over reacting to certain words. For example, a great many people feel that homosexuallity is immoral. Do you believe your opinion is superior over them, or just different? How you react could come off as personal and derogatory. Barry

Well, we just have to disagree as you and I always have in many these things. But from your words, you appear to be mixing your theory of atheism into the intent of the founders of the organization. From my perspective, why would any organization not allow atheist if it isn't based in some way with morality? After all the BSA states that: "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the value of the Scout Oath and Law." Add to that the reference of reverence and god in the oath and law, morality is a specific point of reference to the program. Barry

Not too long ago the BSA didn't allow gays in the program. That was a moral policy in a nondenominational program. Atheist are still not allowed as members in the BSA. I would say that is also a moral policy in a nondenominational program. I think everyone has their limits of immorality, even atheist. The BSA has reached that limit for a lot folks. Barry

It's best to have them on your side. If they are active, I would get them involved, but the majority of charters around here don't get that involved. This is really about safety in the unit. Both adults and scouts need to feel the unit is a safe place. You have a better feel for the temperments of all involved. This may be nothing more than sitting down with the parents with a cup of coffee. But we learned the hard way to deal with these things quickly before emotions escalate. Barry

The scout's situation was handled. That is why council isn't doing more. So it seems the parents are upset with the decision. The troop just needs to support the decision for the scout to start over with another project. Seems like a pretty fair act of discipline to me. Many troops would have asked the scout to leave. But scouting is giving scouts the opportunities to learn life's lessons from their choices in the troop. The troop is giving the scout the chance to learn and grow from his bad decision. Yes, the troop can bar the parent from troop functions. Actually it's a choice. The parent can choose to stay away from functions, or the family can change troops. Our troop has done it several times. Some parents chose to stay away, some chose to change troops. As for the money, it really depends on who donated the money and what the scout decides to do with the next project. I would invite the scout to be part of the discussion. This is the time for the scout to really show his metal by accepting the troops decision and moving forward with the project, and asking his parents to back down. Or not, and forcing the troop leaders to make tough decisions about how the deal with this situation, and situations like them in the future. This is when a good strong CC is worth their pay. It's these kinds of situations that drove me to find strong minded CCs. In my case, they were usually women. Mothers don't put up with....this stuff. Barry

Not really enough details to understand the question. Is the parent the problem? If so, ask the parents in for a meeting with the CC, UC and DE to discuss the situation. Aggressive adults are simply not allowed near the scouts or leaders. Nip it in the bud. Councils typically lets (wants) the units to deal with these situations, so the unit will have to be the bad guy. But they will usually support the unit leaders. Units have to take a stand against aggressive behavior. Barry

To what end? Even giving up all the salary would have little effect on the problem. I believe if voice is to have impact, one has to be careful that their rhetoric doesn't give the appearance of class envy. I heard (don't know how true) that the concern is more about funding retirements long term. Barry

So true. The struggle for many is just believing the bible is the word of God. If a person can't get past that, then differing interpretations are just semantics. And it seems these days semantics is more about yelling the loudest. But Christianity is under a great attack, and homosexuality is the main reason. Just note who leads the the protest against Christian political policies today and likely it based from the gay activist. We are seeing it a lot just in our town locally. And it's a logical conclusion because while many religions have differing perspectives of behaviors, most religions (big three) pretty much agree that homosexuality is not one of the good behavior. So, by conviencing the community that religion is a silly mythical exercise, the immoral can become moral. Then there is the purity of natural science, the biology of all animals is to survive and appropriate. Technology may conveniently provide allowances, but in the strict context of natural biology, heterosexuality reigns. So, even in the purest form of a pragmatic discussion, self desire must exist to even have a discussion. Barry

We've been following the Girl Scout program from a distance for a long time. They got lost in the 70s and 80s from financial support by the women's lib organizations. Money speaks. I have seen their program change the themes several times over the years trying to field a understandable process for the ideal program of future women. But just as politics have changed over the years, so followed the program. I remember a big push for a leadership program back in the 90's that encouraged even their Daiseys to express leadership actions. The problem then and now is the organization keeps setting visions without any processes for reaching the visions. Our personal experience is the local council level leadership is lost in vision, so the program changes day by day. The only thing that can help the GSUSA is good marketing because their program certainly won't be the primary attraction. The BSA was the envy of other outdoor youth organizations because it didn't struggle with changing visions and missions. Part of that is do to the original theme of scouting created by Badon Powell. But most of the reason the BSA kept on the strait and narrow path of building character through a boy run theme was the huge support of it's alumni. Alumni support based on their experience, so they don't like change. No other youth program has (had?) near the financial support from alumni as the BSA. I'm not sure when that support started to fall, but I'm sure the cultural pressure on traditional scouting had a great influence. Ironically that National is admitting girls to increase membership is likely to be a last straw for many alumni. Barry

The coded messages must be working. I'm craving a couple of Samoas just reading this discussion. Barry

I agree. This is the suggestions I gave in training as well for both the pack and the troop programs. If the scouts enjoy the program, they will make an effort to come to the meetings. Many of scouts go strait to the bathroom to change from their sports uniform into their scout uniform. Barry

The program two years ago was just boys. Gays six years ago. Every scouting program that changes to girls eventually made god optional. So we will see on the God part. I think many of the Eagle alums will struggle that it’s holds the same respect. I personally believe it’s starting all over with girls now. Barry

That is very good Hawkwin, thank you. Barry

I agree. I spoke of this very point at Woodbadge and other leadership courses. But there is a lot of independent thinking required of adult leaders in this program. It's not easy for leaders on either end of the spectrum to guide their scouts of their spiritual duties. My concern isn't so much how to insure spiritual application at the scout level. My concern is taking out the spiritual intent at the Vision and Mission level of the program. From the BSA, "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." No matter how any adult interprets ethical and moral choices of their scouts, they can always reference the one and only source of their interpretation to god. Or God, in my case. Once god is taken out as the source of ethical and moral thought, only the adults can take credit for how they judge their scouts' moral actions leaving the scouts no recourse in their response. While BP may have been speaking of a practical religion, he still believe the source of living the Oath and Law was spiritual. What a strange thing to say. I must admit I had a hard time deciding whether to take the rest of your post seriously. I can't tell if these words are a response of pride or humility. Barry

Quite right. We struggle to put into words the significance of the Oath and Law in our daily decisions. But just about everyone understands the value of good character. Good character is every parent's desire for all their kids. Good character is what the employer wants from employees. Good character is how mans actions toward each other is measured. So, ask anyone, and everyone, to give one word that describes "Scouting" and likely character will be mentioned most. For scouts, character is defined as the Oath and Law. Scouts are luckier than most because they have a guide for how to act in good character. It is something that most of their friends don't have. Loadstone, I like that. Barry

There are a great many of adults in our district that think Woodbadge is BSA4Adults. Barry

NJ, I think your second point is the reason why your first point is just plain silly. Barry

Yes, but my experience is that when parents are more personally invested as members, they are more proactive with giving suggestions. Not that big a deal in cubs, but stressful at many levels in the patrol method program. Unless the unit has adult leaders with a strong and confident understanding of the Aims of scouting, and how the Methods structure reaches those goals, the troop typically tends toward parent run. Barry

Good post. As has been pointed out in previous threads, other than tapping into a new demographic to refresh the recruiting, National isn't proposing any program changes to attempt fixing the retention problem. Barry

The soul of the program is the vision. Volunteers shape toward the program, not the other way around. Anyone remember the forum member Bobwhite? He preached that if the unit wasn't performing, then they weren't following the published BSA guidelines. Top companies are successful because they hire like-minded in employees who believe in the product and vision. I was reading the different discussions on this forum the other day thinking how little we discussion operations anymore. Techniques for building the program toward developing character using the tools given by the BSA used to dominate this forum. God is the last holdout for liberals. It won't be long. Without a moral cornerstone, there can be no foundation for developing character. Barry

The only thing left is taking god completely out of the program. That will make the transition to total progressivism complete. I know it's just me and my nature, but I have to laugh when these changes are called progressive. I know progressives, "still laughing", like to use the Scouts program in England as and example of a scouting program recovering after making sharp left turns, but I keep watching the Canadian Scouts which doesn't show such hope. Doesn't really matter, the program lost its soul. Barry