Eagledad

How many active scouts? How many patrols?

Please rethink your thought here, Fred. Mentoring is the scout's valued hope of Adult Association. Scouts' struggle painfully through these kinds of decisions. Where else can a scout find unbiased direction? Friends? Parents? Imagine the quenching relief that pragmatic wisdom brings to the chaos of a young mind. Scouts don't need adults to learn scout skills for adventure, but how valuable is the mature unbiased wisdom when wrestling with complicated life decisions. Adult vanity is the most powerful adversarial force scouts face during their scouting experience. Barry

Favorite Scoutmaster? Barry

Of course. I have a lot of respect for you. My response was after considerable thought and reflection. Barry

Sadly, american society (culture) compares the boys and girls in these ages by maturity. But the differences is not maturity, it's the instinctive world view and growth. My experience is boys of this age view themselves in a world of families. Girls view themselves as a member of a family. Boys are worldly and think big. Girls are organizers, detail oriented. Girls tend to dominate and lead combined groups of this age because details drive organization to reach goals. Girls appear more independent because they are systematic with their thinking, while boys are very much herd instinctive because safety is in the herd. Adults naturally conclude by their instinctive organizational tendencies that girls are more mature and better leaders. No, they are just good at organizing. Boys on the other hand are big picture thinkers. They are dreamers thus appear flighty in their desire for adventure to fill the dreams. Girls in general are happy with day to day organizing. Adventure, OK, but its not necessary to be content. Not until puberty do we see some balance. Boys, while still not great organizers, instinctively turn from the inward herd mentality to the outward protector and provider. It's fun to watch if you know what to look for. How many scouters have stories of awkward annoying scouts who turned into great servant leaders around the age 15. Girls instinctively bring balance to the herd, family, tribe, or whatever you want to call it, through organizing and taking on detail task to assist reaching the group objectives. Scouting for boys has been a program where boys are forced to develop organizing skills for developing a functional team for the goal of adventure. Girls, by instinct, not maturity, will push the boys away from that growth because they will dominate organization, and the adults will encourage it. We can already see it in boys who came from adult led troops. Adults by their nature also compensated for the boys lack of detail skills. I can tell how much the adults are involved with the boys side of the program simply by watching a few of the older scouts during planning. Scouts from mature patrol method programs could run meetings for any Fortune 500 company. The program will change to adults forcing boys to play with the girls. Boy will become frustrated from the constant behavior comparisons and pressure to keep up. Just like the troops that are more adult driven, most of the boys who continue scouting past 13 are being forced by their parents, not because they like the program. I am curious though, while families of girls say adventure is the major reason for the membership change, my experience is female driven troops have noticeably less outdoor adventure. I know the European troops seem to have mastered human instinct differences, and I wonder how. But, after visiting Europe, the family is valued very differently than American view their families. It is certainly a different culture. Barry

I admit I'm caught off guard. Superiority? qwazse? Oh, I remember now. The Eagle. We are only human I guess. Shinny things. Barry

You have the right idea, it's about inertia. But isn't that the older scouts running the program. I don't understand why you don't see taking on more of the troop responsibility isn't boosting the flywheel that will keep them engaged. This is where I see adults fail, they don't know how to build it up. Everything, I MEAN EVERYTHING, should be reviewed to improve for the next time. Especially the adult part of the program. They should also be reviewing how the "Planning, communication, feedback, dealing with negative scouts". I've said before that to most common questions ask by participants in my Scoutmaster Specific class was uniforming and discipline. Discipline is complicated at the adult level, so you can imagine how it is at the scout level when trying to get the scouts to take on the responsibility. The way we handled discipline when we started our program was 180 degrees different from how we were dealing with 10 years later. To mature as a boy run program (to keep the inertia continuing), the adults and scouts have to strive to do it better than the last time, every time. This is a major problem with adults. They always want to make things better by making them more complicated. The treasure wants to use a new computer program they they have used in their business, and that nobody else can touch after they leave. The Advancement Chair always has a new and better way to track advancement. And on and on. We eventually developed a philosophy that a scout had to be partnered with each committee adult every time the adult came up with a new idea. That force the adult to look at ANYTHING from a more simplistic perspective. I used to teach, "if you are going to make changes, ALWAYS simplify to the scout level". Don't let boy run got overrun with adults' good ideas. Very well said. There are a few successful Crew/Troops out there, but very few. Running two programs together is complicated and requires an adult with a good understanding of the big picture to make the concept work because it does require more adult intervention overhead. Personally I see no advantage of adding a crew. Our troop planned more high adventure than most of the crews in our area. Our youth leadership is more consistent because the Patrols supported the troop leadership structure. The only ONLY advantage I can see with adding a crew is to get girls into the program. Adding a crew to the troop boy run program just to add girls is a huge risk because the troop requires the older scouts and youth leadership to mixed into the program, not just close or nearby. The patrols still need older scouts in the patrols. Sadly, many (most) adults think see a crew as just high adventure. It's not. It's character development just like a troop, and part of the development is running the program. Not just showing up friday night to camp all weekend. Boy run is about about youth taking a group of youth to youth planned activities. When the youth start leaving any of the decisions to the adults, they are stepping back from a boy run program. Three out of five crews fail after the first four years because they didn't have good adults who understand how to build a boy run style program. The programs turned into camping clubs, and even high adventure gets boring. As I said eariler, what keeps older scouts in the program is the challenge of running the program and growing from the challenge. The best programs are the ones where the scouts go home saying to themselves, "I like myself when I'm with the troop, or crew". That kind of feeling comes from achieving above what you thought was capable. Adding a crew to a troop program to improve the troop program is the WORST reason for combining the two programs. Success requires putting the two successful programs together to build a more successful program. As I used to advise units around here, if you can't build a successful boy run troop program, what makes you think you can build a successful crew program? I know of only one successful true boy run program that combines the crew and troop together. Cliff Golden' of Troop 33. Cliff is the most boy run scouter I know of and was one of my mentors when I was a Scoutmaster. That program has a reputation for being as active with the community as it is with outdoor adventure. Cliff added the crew so he could bring in girls. They are the luckiest girls in scouting. Cliff used to be member of this forum. But he wasn't very active here because he was busy doing scouting stuff. Barry

One of my WB ticket items was to observe PLC meetings of other troops to learn and improve our meetings. One of my observations was that most troops don't teach using a meeting agenda in the PLC meetings. The adults basically threw the scouts in a room and expected a perfectly run meeting. When the SPL stumbled, usually adults jumped in and many times took over. When I researched this a little farther, I learned that the SMs didn't expect an agenda because they didn't run their own meetings with one. Now that really struck me because I've been using some form of meeting agendas ever since I can remember, and our unit committee meetings are run with meeting agendas. It's not like the agenda isn't talked about in training, the SM Handbook talks about meeting plans as well as the SPL Handbook gives an example. The issue is many adults don't respect it as an important tool for the scouts to run the program because they don't rely on them in their personal life. I guess my point is that training can only go so far. The leaders need to respect the material being presented enough to use it. What the adult doesn't use, the scouts don't learn. I was able to help the problem a little through our JLTC (NYLT) course. The scouts in our courses created ticket items. We called them something else. Anyway, we required each troop to send an adult (preferably the SM) to review the scout's ticket items with him and develop a plan to how they would accomplish the scout's objectives before the scout went home. This way, the scout was the teacher and the adult was the student. It worked pretty well and I never heard a negative comment about it from a leader. I agree that the quality of a unit is directly relational to the quality of adults working with the scouts. That challenge is developing quality scouters. I'm not saying that BSA training is satisfactory in developing quality adult leaders, but I have seen adults run their program against what they were taught. I'm not sure how to change that. Barry

I agree, but the stages of a mature troop aren't as systematic. I should have went into more detail, but I was just trying to get to a different point in limited time. Scouts in an experienced troop are going through the three stages all at the same time. True, they are focusing a lot on the core skills, but they are learning the skills of the other two stages simply by watching the older scouts in action. We humans instinctively learn most of our behaviors and skills by watching our role models. That is why older 15 to 17 years old are so important for a program of scouts ages 10 to 17. Learning from role models is so powerful that mature experienced troops running perfectly would require no training for a scouts to learn all their skills the program offers. My philosophy for our program was to only using training to pass along new information or to fix a problem that had a negative impact on the scouts activities. I used training as a Red Flag to indicate areas of the program that needed special attention. Role models are why the Patrol Method is so powerful for developing growth. I also like Sentinel's post about the Scoutmaster roles. Just how much adult coaching, mentoring and guidance does a troop of scouts require with 16 and 17 year old scouts running the program. Typically a 17 year old scout is sharper with scouting skills than adults. So, what advantage, if any, does a 21 year old adult have over a the 17 year old Eagle in running a troop? The answer is life experiences. Which means that a 17 year old man still has something to learn from the older adult with a few mores years of life's experience. And if the troop is encouraging scout growth with experienced role models, the Scoutmaster's responsibilities become very limited to mentoring senior scouts and training ASMs. As the SM of such a program, I spent a lot of time just sitting around the campfire allowing the scouts do their thing. And while Scoutmastering for such a program is extremely rewarding, it was also the most stressful responsibility I ever experienced. More than any other person in all of the BSA, the SM has the most responsibility AND POWER in the development of boy's physical, mental and spiritual growth. That is a lot of responsibility. It was one of the most fantastic experiences of my life, which is why I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I wonder if texting and email pushes the problem. Texting wasn't popular 15 years ago, but I ignored emails. My communication with adults was either face to face (preferred) or by phone. When the parents see your body actions as they listen to your reasoning, they learn how far they can push. Barry

Scout must be close to Eagle.If the scout were 14 or younger, dad would be looking for another troop. I'm surprised this didn't happen a few years earlier. Barry

This is a good analogy for a new troop, but not an older troop where the older scouts are the main role models for the program. The measure of quality of a troop program is best measured by the performance of the older scouts. Since they are the role models of all the scouts, the whole program is a reflection of them. This is not a big deal with adults who understand they must change their style of guiding the program as the troop culture matures in growth. But my observation is that the majority of the troops don't recognize their need to change (or don't know how), leaving their program to muddle. Older scouts have the maturity and intellect of young adults who need young adult challenges to continue their growth in the program. While the fun of adventure is the draw to scouting, it's the satisfaction of personal growth that keeps young adult scouts in the program. This is not to say National doesn't say anything about the need to change, they hint on it here and there, but there isn't really any good guidance in showing adults when and how they need to change the adult side of the program as the scouts mature in their side of the program. And maybe that is an aspect of scouting that is hard to grasp, much less teach. Wisdom is knowledge that has been hardened by humility. Maybe we don't teach the action of humility very well. Barry

Personally I feel the new generation of adults who don't have a scouting experience is more challenging than the G2SS rule. As you said, if the adults get it, they will make it work. But with a larger influx of adults that don't get it, the trend will go the other way. Of course that is all based on my theory of the new influx of inexperienced adults. We will see. Barry

The Scoutmaster's Handbook explains these concepts in some detail. What the BSA doesn't do well is guide the adults in how to balance the concepts. The number one cause of older scouts leaving the troop is their program hasn't matured beyond developing First Class advancement skills (advancement). Scouts spend the first two years of their scouting experience learning the skills, then the next two years teaching the skills. The reason the troop is stuck in the mud is the adults haven't learned how to back off as scout mature with experience. Backing off and giving scouts more responsibilities to challenge their maturity is a hard skill to develop if the adults aren't conscious to the concept. I used to teach the adults to push the edge of their comfort with scout independence so that they don't become obstacles to scout growth. Barry

I know it's my faith, but you are there for a reason. God bless you. Reading about your gift, I reflected at a time when a scout came to a meeting late and out of uniform. We leave the uniform requirements and choices up to the scouts, but this was an unusual occurrence with the scout. So I asked him how things were going. He confessed (blurted out) that his parents just dropped him off from announcing they were getting a divorce. I knew from other life experiences that divorce ranks way up there when it comes to shock. I didn't know what to say, but I felt that he wasn't ready to join his patrol yet. So we went outside and sat on the curb while he talked. If your in this scouting stuff very long, you find that some of it is very hard. I'm so grateful for the arronisoutside's who can work the hard stuff. Barry

Ah! Thanks. Humanity is saved. Barry

While walking through camp on a beautiful Saturday morning, a scout yelled at me asking if the rinse water for KP was supposed to be hot or cold. Before I had time to respond, he had already turned around toward his tent yelling in the same loud tone, "I know, get the Scout Handbook". I must admit, I have been concerned that technology is robbing us of opportunities to develop character. A free digital Scout Handbook? That can't be good. Barry

Hmm, very philosophical. I'm not sure I agree or disagree, but we all grow in our experiences with others. We'll see what you think next year. Still, life has a way of making us hurry up and wait. Biblically, patience is a virtue, and a show of love. If your scouts know your heart, they are better for the wait. This has been and interesting discussion because posters have been all over the field describing why the scoutmaster is wrong. He added an extra requirement. Really? As I've pointed out, we all add requirements in our own way. Are we all bad people? The SM is making the scout wait. OK, but life happens to all of us and more often than we realize, we can't jump at a moments notice for each and every request by a scout. Is there really harm in waiting. The SM is simply putting himself before the scout. He is not modeling the oath or law. He wants what he wants and is making the scouts dance to his tune (Sorry, my daughter just had a son and I find myself blurting out grandpa-isms). The SM is modeling selfishness. Or more to the Oath and Law, he is not doing his best to help other people, and he is not being trustworthy. His honor has lost integrity. Can the SM save himself? We are all human and I'm on record saying that humility is the greatest character trait an scouter can teach a scout. Can someone give the SM a chance to teach. Barry

Also, in the "Thinking out of the Box" part, forget about the standard den plan. One Den met twice a month for 1.5 hours. One den met at church on Sundays. Don't let the program restrict a solution. There are work arounds for just about everything, you just haven't thought of them yet. Barry

If I had a dime for every....... Let me just warn you that the real problem is on the other side of the hill, WEBELOS. As I've said, I've worked this issue many times and my first point is that each situation is different because the complexities of the adults involved are different. So, you have to be creative. And remember, you aren't just looking for a Bear leader, you are looking for a Webelos program leader. Do you have another Den of Bears. How solid is that den? Are their any adults over there to consider? Consider combining Dens. The logistics are more difficult, but you can pull more parents in to help. One of our Webelos leaders who took over two dens in the same situation assigned each parent to lead one activity pin. He also had two assistance to help in the meetings. The Den meetings were split into two 20 minute exercises. then each group switched exercises. That den only met twice a month for 1 hour and 30 minutes. We have also reorganized whole grades to recreate new dens. As I said, you have to get creative. I have done a parents meeting to explain the dire situation and ask for help. But, you need to have some ideas to drive that meeting or Nothing will happen. It's one thing to be asked to take over a den. It is something different to be directed to pick only one exercise to lead on some date in the future. Remember, the number one cause of scouts leaving the program is a boring program. So, your challenge is not just a matter of finding a warm body, but creating a plan for a fun program through Webelos II. How far have I gone on this: I once made a deal with 16 families that if they would lead two Bear dens for a year, I would quit the CM job and take over as their Webelos den. Twelve of those Sixteen Scouts earned Eagle. Fourteen of the sixteen aged out at 18. It was a team effort for all 16 families. I know of another pack where the parents ran all the meetings, but nobody was a den leader. I honestly don't know how they did it, but that pack handed crossed over 12 Webelos into our troop. I talked to their parents, and they were passionate to get their sons into the troop program, so they made it work. We can help here, but you need to get a better feel for the parents. What are they willing to give to make this work for the next three years? Then work from there. Barry

What is your opinion of it? Good, bad, ugly. (need a Clint Eastwood music emoji here) Barry

Your son really needs to handle this if the program will allow him. Is there a Senior Patrol Leader he could talk to? That is the traditional ladder of communication. He wouldn't be stepping on any toes by talking to the SPL. The SPL might be able to help or even get help from the SM. Barry

Shesh, I just wanted to be the king of the BSA. You want to be king of the WHOLE WORLD! If I were king of the WHOLE WORLD, everybody would have a Harley. And an Eagle. Barry

The BOR lost it's meaning over the years when the adults took it over. National wants accountability, but they don't want risking abuse during retesting, which was the cause of taking it from the scouts in the first place. Still, there needs to be a program check somewhere in the process, so this is what they came up with. If I were king, I would require both the Scout and his parents get a BOR. Scouts aren't going to spill their guts to a bunch of adult strangers, but they do to their parents. The parents will fill in blanks and add a little of their own opinion. Barry