Eagledad

>>Using terms with different common meanings is just going to be confusing to the rest of us that use the Scoutmaster Handbook for guidance.

>>I won't comment on the workability of a single-activity "patrol" except to say you cannot find any guidance on how to work the concept in any BSA publication.

>>Again, that is how Venture Patrols operate! Boys stay in their regular mixed age patrol and the Venture Patrol exist only until the activity is done, then are re-orged/reformed.

>>Your description of your "temporary activity patrols" is basically Venture Patrols.

Hi Lisabob The answer to your first question is you will find that many of the scouts wont want to do all that stuff. One year when we had about 35 fourteen and older scouts, I polled them to find out how many actually wanted to do high adventure. Twelve! Of course some wanted to do some high adventure, but not enough to join a patrol just for those activities. If you encourage the scouts to create and plan the trips, I think you will find that they come up with enough trips to keep the crews managble. But, lets say you do get a large crew, divide them up into a couple of smaller groups with a leader for each group. Typically our Snow Skiing crews were the largest and we would divide them up. The leaders of the groups are basically someone that the main crew leader can contact for communication to the rest of the crew. Commitment really depends on what you want from it. We required scouts attend a minimum number of trainings so that they would know what they were getting into, and so we would know their limitations. But commitment for a snow ski trip was different than a commitment for a back packing trip. We usually tried to have enough training activities so if a scout couldn't make one, they still could make the minimum. We required a crew leader for every trip and that person was required to get planning done for both the trip and training. What that means is he either could do the planning and communication himself, or delegate the task to other scouts and adults and over see that they got done. We had some good leaders and some not so good. But the adults assigned to that activity knew how to motivate the scout if the other scouts didnt get the job done, which they usually did. 90% of the time the scouts did a great job of planning because most wanted to be there. And there is a maturity curve as well. Older scouts with planning experience took on a lot more of the task than younger scouts with lesser experience. I had one 17 year old SPL who also planned a 10 day backpacking trip in Montana. He wouldnt let anyone else help because he enjoyed it so much. I think the adults of that trip wished they had given a few tips as far as where to stop for breaks while driving, but that crew had a great time. He did good. One thing you will observe quickly by their attitude however are the scouts who dont really want to be there. Usually they are there because they are being pushed by parents or adult leaders or they just want to be part of the cool older guys. We learned that if a scouts wasnt excited about the trip, it was better to leave him at home because they are just as much of a struggle in the back county. I had the job of explaining that to the parents. You guys are going to have a great time. Barry

Hello Scoutingmama Our troop eventually went the direction of an adventure troop instead of Venture Patrols. For reasons that I wont get into here, Venture Patrols didnt work out well for us. Instead of waiting for your scouts to get old enough for the Venture Patrol, start encouraging Temporary Activity Patrols now. Those are patrols created for a specific activity like Philmont or Northern Tier or any other activity that is not planned by the PLC as a troop activity. Temporary Activity Patrols don't have an age or rank restriction unless the specific activity was limited by age like Philmont. The Patrol only exists until the activity has been completed. The scouts in the patrol dont leave their other patrol, and meet at other times outside the Troop Meeting. Ours typically met before the troop meeting or on weekends. Another advantage of a Temporary Activity Patrol is that it doesnt have to be High Adventure. One year we had three crews go to Philmont, another go to backpacking in Colorado and another go snow skiing. But we also had a patrol spend a weekend going to amusements parks to ride roller coasters. There were no age restrictions on any of those activities accept the Philmont trips. Weve also had a patrol go to Alaska and one created for the purpose of doing a service project at a nursing home. The boys created most of those patrols and led all of them. Our biggest challenge was getting enough adults. I encourage your scoutmaster to build a reputation of an adventure troop where all the scouts can choose between different activities. With a reputation like that, your troop will likely grow very fast. Barry

>>IMHO, the BOR has been crippled by decades of good intentions, and policy tweaking.

I second Bob White in that competition is instinctive for boys and you should use that to your advantage for good team building a Patrol bonding. Its in their boy nature; so learn how to use that positive energy for momentum toward their growth. You seem to be pretty successful in the patrol method part of the program, but struggling a little in the application of the Scout Oath and Law. That is OK, it is just a matter of practice for the adults and we all have to learn and grow to build a mature scout program. Remind the scouts that they are to serve the other scouts by using the scout law all the time. I find it interesting that you see a bit of the problem with the age based patrols. That is pretty perceptive. We experience the clickiness as well when the troop was more aged based and lot of it came from the leadership side. The troop had developed into a routine where the third year scouts inherited the PLC, whether they wanted it or not. The younger groups were dreading it, and the older groups were glad to move on. The ambitious leaders couldnt get in early or stay in once they were there. There werent any written rules about it, the clickiness just seem to pull it that way. There also wasnt the cohesiveness between the patrols groups that you seem to want as well. They got along OK, but they didn't have the pride of being part of a great troop. We migrated to mixed age patrols and all that changed almost instantly. Patrol pride remained, but it was healthier now. The patrol leaders felt support from the other patrol leaders, which resulted in better leadership skills and the youth taking on more the responsibility of scout discipline. The PLC was much stronger with ages that ranged from 13 to 17 years old. Scout growth accelerated faster than the adults could imagine. A troop is only as good as its older scouts because they are the role models. Keep up the good work. Barry

>>I think it could be because when the PL is there and doing his job well, there is not much responsibility attached to being the APL.

We eventually matured into a troop where the scouts pretty got to choose where they wanted to go. But that doesnt mean the adults are supposed to stand back and not have an opinion. I can write volumes on the benefits of mixed age patrols over same age patrols based from our experiences. So I'm very motivated to guide the program in a direction that is best for the scouts growth. As our troop matured, we learned what worked and what doesnt. However, if a NSP came to us and asked to be their own patrol, we would let it happen knowing the struggles they would contend. The way our troop worked was when the new scouts joined, we told them that after summer camp, they could do anything they wanted. We asked them to watch all the patrols so they could pick the one they wanted. Or they could start their own with our full support. And they could go to any patrol with as many friends as they wanted. With all those choices, we never one has a NSP that wanted to start their own patrol. And despite all the theories, we found that most boys are happy joining a patrol with just one other friend. We did have a few times when older scouts wanted to start a new patrol and started by recruiting new scouts. But the new scouts never wanted to go on their own. And why would they, they dont cook as well, tell as good stories or jokes and they like hanging around older scouts. That doesnt mean a NSP doesnt work. Given the right adults, NSPs will do fine. Barry

Veryfiy that this is really a scout function before it is made an issue. My sons soccor team use to go out and play paintball. Barry

>>Being a 40 year+ Scouter I think the NSP is a Band-Aid with no adhesive; it was designed for adult run troops that had hazing problems.

>>My original feeling was that a friendly face at Tenderfoot (to get the scary unknown out of the way) would be a better set up for future successes than throwing up on his shoes and quitting because he is afraid of the unknown.

>>If a man does something and there's no woman around, is he still wrong? (sorry)

>>It is not a requirement for Scout rank to have a BOR, but my new boys all have one anyway. This serves two purposes. 1) It gives all the new scouts an opportunity to experience a BOR before they "count". That means the boys go in with a more relaxed feeling, no pressure, just so they get their feet wet talking with the adults on the Board. And 2) it gives a chance for the adults to work through any problems/questions they may have conducting a BOR.

>>And certainly, BSA's image to the public is complex and multi-faceted. Nonetheless, one portion of that image that has loomed ever larger in the public eye in recent decades has been a direct result of BSA's discriminatory membership policies.

>>What rules of the BSA (and by rules I mean policies, procedures, et al) get in the way of you delivering a good program?

Hi All A lot of the time these things happen because the group and or the group leader doesn't understand the objective. BORs is one of the most common adult discussion questions that comes up in all scouting forums because really it not all that clear why we do it the way we do it. It is nice to have cheatsheets (we did that also), but if the objective isn't clear, it can still be difficult. Barry

>>Traditional capture the flag can accomplish the same goals as Laser Tag

>>If the only thing we can come up with is Laser Tag, contact sports,(that are certainly available outside scouting) there doesn't seem like there's much that really prevents a high quality program.

>>Ahhh... Maybe we need to make a distinction between "good Scouting" and that which we wanna do

Cub camping rules. Some of the games like lazer tag and even football. Retesting. Adults only doing a BOR. Barry

>>You may not get concensus, but you'll certainly get a lot of strong opinions. ;-)

>>"How about asking the Scout to tie a knot?" No kidding Robert, really! And after all your lectures. I must have been doing that scouting stuff. Please continue because we need your last word before we can move on. Barry

>>Consider this. How about asking questions that are directly related to the relements of scouting.