Eagledad

//Would a large troop be more effective using mixed patrols or patrols by school grade? // For a large troop, same age patrols equate to a basically adult run program. Mixed ages can go either adult or boy run, but optimal boy run programs require mixed age patrols. There are many discussions in the archives on boy run and adult run. Barry

//My personal preference is to start a new troop in an area that has a mega-troop or to spin one off. Not because mega-troops are necessarily a bad thing (just another flavor of scoutin'), but because when the key adult(s) in a mega-troop move on or retire, those troops tend to collapse in size relatively quickly. So yeh really don't want all your scouting eggs in an area in one basket, so to speak. It's particularly problematic if one "mega" troop is killing off smaller programs, since that can leave no alternatives when the big program hits a downturn. I've seen mega-troops go from 100 to zero in less than three years after da loss of the SM.// I don't disagree on anything beavah says here, he is right. but one other bit of information that needs to be included is the troop that splits off typically struggles and most fail. And the other troop grows back to the size before it split. We found splitting is a gamble with odds the not in our favor. Not saying it shouldn't be done because it is a logical solution, but experiance has me swayed to lean toward leaving mega troops alone and put my energy into the new leadership a few years later. I admire beavh trying the other side of the coin. Also, I think folks get boy run and patrol method confused. That is a different discussion, but I was a SM of a very boy run troop that grew from 15 scouts to 95 scouts in seven years. There is no way a troop of 50 scouts or more can be boy run without the patrol method. Even then it is a huge challenge that I would not wish on anyone. I certianly would not strive to build such a program. We just had no choice. Barry

//Overall, I think BSA allows us a great deal of flexibility in what we do. Yeah, I agree that Cubs could certainly do more with outdoor adventure. Too often that program gets watered down into arts & crafts & Pinewood Derby heats. But there's simply not enough structure and training for den leaders and Cubmasters to teach them how to do outdoor adventure properly and safely - and that's more of a structural problem than a program one, IMO. We don't want to release several thousand untrained den leaders into state parks across the country building massive 10-foot-tall bonfires and teaching kids that all mushrooms are safe to eat. // Doesn't really matter as far as numbers go, the Cub program suffers from "too much overhead" on the adults, Not a lack of adventure. If you change the cub program to a three year program, I think you would see a 40percent inrease in the cub program inside 10 years, and 25 percent increase in the troops. If you want excited boys, you need excited parents. I am big fan of in adding more adventure at all the ages, but if you sit down with scouts who are not happy with scouts, it's not usually lack of adventure that is the problem. It's boredom and that is not the same. And I understand how us old coggers can apply our experiences to boys today and assume the problem is not enough of the activities we had in our day. But it's relative, they don't know what they are missing. They only know they are bored. If you want to relate that to needing more adventure, you are wrong. 4 out of 5 new Venturing programs fail in 5 years. The problem at the troop level is scouts get tired of being treated like boys. After puberty, scouts are no longer boys, they are adults and they know the differ difference. As I said before, the cub program is a simpler problem, "Adult burnout". But nobody has the courage to make the right fix there. Barry

Good discussion. I personally don't think adventure is the big problem. For Cub Scouts, the program is too hard for adults to maintain. We burn out adults by the third year. For troop ages, the first year of the troop experience is the BSA's worst year for loosing scouts and the cause is the big leap from being managed by adults to being managed by scouts. Its a problem that Scouting has always had. The following years is a simple matter of a boring program. You could blame that on adventure (or lack there of), but its more than that, its the inabiltiy of the program to challenge boys both mentally and physically at all ages. Adding more adventure will not fix that problem Barry

This is a good discussion and I think really good questions. Here are the questions I would ask for any scout to take most formal trainings like TLT. A Scout should take training only if: 1. If he wants to attend the class. 2. Hasnt taken the training before. There has been a shift of attitude in the last 20 years that scouts should get the basis of their leadership skills, or most skills for that matter, from formal training, not observation and experience. Its more important to understand that until puberty, our human ( and most animals) nature or instinct is to learn most of our behavior and skills by observing. Not by listening in a formal classroom style training environment but observation. In fact experts say we learn as much as 90 percent or our behavior just from observing those around us. Puberty is the line where our instinct switches from learning by observation, to applying skills for survival. I know that we generally dont worry about survival in our culture, but the instinct doesnt change. The important thing is the vast majority of the skills we use after puberty were learned by observation before puberty. I certainly saw this in our program when we tried different styles of training. So this leads back to the list: In question 1, a scout should not be forced to take training that he doesnt feel ready to take. If the training is required for an activity, leadership or advancement, the scout needs to make the choice and learn from his choice. In the real world, we have to complete a process to advance our position. The troop is the perfect place for a scout to learn that lesson. If a scout doesnt want to take Woods Tools Training, he should have to, but he cant use a knife. He will learn. In question 2, I learned through the years the only thing boys hate more than formal training is repeated formal training. Nothing like a bored boy disturbing the scouts around him because hes been there done that. If a PL is re-elected, he shouldnt have to take the TLT class for the position again, he should teach it. Also, teach only what the scouts need to grow. To many troops teach a lot of stuff the scouts already know because it was part of the corriculum they were using. Don't be afraid to take stuff out you don't need and add subjects in areas the scouts are struggling. Trust me, the scouts will respect your leadership for this. We slowly developed our program so that a scout was never required to repeat any training unless he showed a total lack of skill in that subject. So what does all this mean? It means that a troop program should aspire to as little formal leadership training as possible and instead develop the program structure to where younger scouts are exposed to skilled older scouts in action as much as possible. In fact, I taught Scoutmasters that training for the sake of teaching skills is a red flag that the troop program is not working well in those areas and should make attempts for changes. The troop leaders goal (youth and adult leadership) is shape the troop program so that a scout learns all his skills through program activities to perform at a maximum level instead of formal trainings like TLT. Of course that is next to impossible for any troop, but it should be the goal and requires the leadership to review their program performance to make changes where improvement is required. As I said, no troop is perfect and we all require some formal Training to supplement those imperfections. So the question is; when should we provide formal training? It should be provided when a scout needs to make a big step in skills faster than what simple observation would provide for a required minimum level of performance: >Getting a new responsibility like Patrol leader is a good example. Not giving a new Patrol Leader some kind of training is setting him up for failure, so we give him enough training to get him through the first six weeks. >Safety is also another place where formal training is required over learning from observation like the proper use of woods tools. >Joining a High Adventure Crew might require some training to get up to speed to function in the back county like canoeing. I have observed many times through the years that scouts 14 and older use at least 80 percent of what the observed up to that age to apply their skills. Scouts who didnt have good leadership skills in his older scout years usually werent exposed to good leadership in their early years. It is an interesting thing to observe and the primary reason I dont like same age patrols. A few other things we learning in our JLTs is the shorter the training period, the better. We started out with a full weekend TLT campout that over the years evolved to 12 hour overnight lock-in. The thing about camping is the boys do so much of it, they get bored with a training campout really fast. They dont have a good attitude about it. Doing training indoors changes the environment to something different and special. We found the scouts more attentive. We also found that boys can only absorb so much training, so two days is way too much. They have had enough by the end of the first day. So we eventually change our TLT curriculum to a 12 hours lock-in environment. They like that curriculum so much they started inviting friends from other troops. Our training for changes in leadership positions is only two hours long during a week night so that it doesnt interrupt their weekend. And two hours might even be too long. I know this was long reply, but I always like to give reasoning to justify my experience and advice. Plus, some folks arent getting enough sleep and this should do the trick Have a great week. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

!!So I guess he's not all bad -- just all bad when it comes to policy, finance, etc. !! Says the guy in the state of the third highest dept. Barry

!!As far at the boy's doing the bookkeeping...I'd doubt it...it would be a help if they wrote neatly.!! We are only limited by those who put barriers in our paths. Our scouts do the bookkeeping and present all the badges. the Advacement Chair is only a mentor. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Our scouts pick two adults each month and put big writeups about them in the troop newsletter along with a nice gift from the scout office. That saves the COH and makes the newsletter more interesting. I certainly understand the committee chairs frustration, however most would be surprised to just how difficult it can be remembering to recognize everyone who feels they need to be recognized. Forgetting a scout when I was CM was a big fear for me. And it happen a lot with 120 cubs. I ran into a friend whose husband is a SM and was a den leader herself a few years earlier when I was CM. She appologized for all the late night calls to me when I was CM. She now understood just how many calls a CM and SM get from folks for those things they might have forgotten the night before. My suggestion for eng is a little forgiveness and a quiet humble way of helping the SM next time. I am pretty sure the SM meant no offense and does appreciate the advancement chairs hard work. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Here is what I learned to getting the most impact from the Scouting For Food Community Service Project: make it a one day event. Infact, make it just a morning event. Reasons why: 1. Gives the Scouts an opportunity to meet and members of the community. Cubs Scouts are very cute. 2. Give the folks of the community a chance to meet Scouts at their best, community service. Next best thing to being help across the street. 3. Cheapest and best method of marketing for the local scouting program. 4. You will get the most food because folks few compelled to give when confronted in person. 5. Takes the least amount of the adults time and saves a lot of gas. 6. Takes the least amount of District volunteers time and it is done in one weekend. I learned all these things over the 15 years of working with the program. It makes no sense to me that we send scouts to the doors of our community without them ever meeting those folks. The first year our pack tried the idea of a one day collection by sending two scouts to each door, our pack gathered more food than the rest of the district, so I was told. But much more important, our scouts and our community met each other and they enjoyed it. Our Cubs talked about this for weeks because they had so much fun. People are interesting and cubs are curious, that mix makes for a great scouting day. The Boy Scouts dont seem to have as much fun, but they do enjoy it only taking four hours of one day. To make the day even more fun, we brought donuts and hot chocolate. When I finally talked our district into trying a one day food gathering, it turn out so successful and they liked it enough to try and convince Council to do it that way next yet. But, as with many things, politics got involved and the BSA had to back out from the partner who also sponsored the event. It was not the BSAs fault and all agree the departure was best. Make it a great event, make it only one day long. I know it sounds silly, but it works. Barry

Depends really on your scouts needs and program I think. We have had many special needs scouts and like Stosh, we encourage the Patrol members take care of each other. We have also had a couple special scouts that required a more specific effort of assistance for the scouts safety. That assistance can be very very demanding. We have never used a TG or SM assigned POR for scouts who assist a special scouts, but I certainly wouldnt have trouble with considering the idea, it just never came up for our situations. I dont agree with the smoke and mirror patch comment. There are several ways to accomplish the same task with equal performance. A choice of ideas are what forums are good for. Barry

I was thinking, the district asked me to visit a Blue and Gold Banquet so I can speak a few minutes about the troop program. Less than 50 percent of Webelos cross over to troops in our area, so I really want to make an impact. I want to get these guys excited for the adventure they can add to their lives. I want them staying awake at night thinking about the adventures they will do in the troop, you know those cool things Boy Scouts do. Where to start, where to start? Yes, Yes, I have it; Guys, in the future your Scoutmaster wants you to teach another boy a skill using the EDGE method. My apologies, but I am grateful that I was a SM during a time when scouts didn't have to worry about acronyms. We must understand that the average scout will have learned 90 percent of everything the troop program can teach by the age 14. More importantly, that 90 persent will have come from "observing" others during the troop activities, not listening to classroom style lectures. Why don't we use the 10 percent of lecture time for the older scouts so they role model good teaching skills while working with the younger scouts. That will give the younger scouts more time for fishing. Barry

>>I really think now that one of the reasons the boys have been reluctant to be boy-led is not because they didn't know what to do, but because they didn't really trust the adults to give them the authority along with the responsibility to run the program themselves. I'm hoping my CC clarified it a bit for the boys last night.

Yes, you gotta love this scouting stuff.

This would all be solved if National would add velcro, bungee cords and duct tape skills to the first class requirments. Oh and lets not forget lighting stoves. (LOL) Barry

I've been invovled in a few, we did them under the Star Trek and Star Wars themes, but you can make up any theme you want. The scouts love them. I'm sure that if you do a search night camporees at google and at Scouts-L.org archives, you will get more information than you can read. The basics for us is we started the competition from the evening campfire and went to about 2:00 AM in the morning. The adults cooked breakfast and had a lot of fun doing that. Barry

I hate to talk about our program as an example of the right way to do things because it comes off as bragging and I dont like to brag, but it seems several topics today are contradictory to our program when I was scoutmaster. When I left as Scoutmaster 43 percent of the 93 scouts on the roster were 14 and older. We averaged an Eagle every two months and the average age of our eagles was 16.5 years old. The main requirement for a program that older scouts like to stay in is physical and mental challenge of all scouts of all ages. A middle school troop is one where the scouts basically learn scouts skills, go to a couple summer camps and then repeat. Its the repeat that drives older scouts away. I agree with Beavh that older scouts do like to work with younger scouts, they love it in fact. Typically our scout who just left the office of SPLs volunteered to be a Troop Guide because they want to keep serving other scouts. For some reason they feel a special drive to work with the younger scouts. That is not typical of scout 14 and younger. They havent matured to the point yet. For those of us who have worked in troops with older scouts, watching older scouts running the troop is pure pleasure. In another discussion today, there is the assumption that scouting doesnt have any real goals for the boys to strive for. No game to win, not concert to play; Not so, the goal of scouts is to live out dreams. Does the scout recruiter talk about all the fun in learning how to tie knots and earn merit badges? No, they typically talk about camping, canoeing, backpacking, sailing, using a knife and learning how to use and axe. These are things that feed dreams. In my last year of Scoutmaster, my SPL was also the Assistant Crew Leader in a Backpacking Crew (is that an ASPL?). He was also an officer in the OA chapter, and he virtually planned a two week backpacking high adventure trek to Montana for 2 men and 10 scouts all by himself. He had told me that the last year of scouting for him was a dream he had for a couple of years. I preached in adult training that Scouting is a place where dreams can come true. Its up to the adults to get out of the boys way. What are your scouts dreams? That is what their goals are. The problem of working with scouts to strive for their dreams is that we have to work with each scout individually. WE have to get to know each one well enough that we know how to get out of their way. My best SPL hated advancement. He was never so happy as he was when he was leading, he was never so miserable as he was when working on advancement. So, we learn to shut up about working toward that Eagle. By the way, for the band discussion, while that scout was SPL, he belong to the school marching band, school Jazz Band, and church worship band. He made work. Another scout set a goal of getting all the Merit Badges the BSA offered, he hated leadership. Strangely, but both these guys where OA District Chiefs. You just have to get them started and then get out of the way. And that reminds me for some of the nay sayers of goals and character, The only thing that limits a boy's dream is for adults to push their dreams on the boy. You want older scouts to hang around, get out of their way. Get out of the habit of saying you CANT do that because.. Instead, say show me how, or lets give that a try, or Im open to that new idea, where can we start?. >>Da key ingredient for high schoolers seems to be genuine challenge and responsibility. I think many of the Venturing Crews don't get that, either, eh?

>>Maybe I'm just a confused person, Eagledad.

This isn't a strikes and balls kind of call, its a catch the fly ball than drop it kind of call. No judgement required. You are a complex person beavh, the vast majority of your post in context say do whats right for the scouts. I'm lost at why you don't respond that way in this discussion. Its black and white to me, what is your gray area that I don't see? Barry

I remember after our first year in the troop, the UC came by and proudly announced that we earned the Quality Unit Award. I will never forget the look on his face when we asked, "What did we do to get that". The requirements for these awards are basically a short check list of what the leaders hand books direct us to do it anyway. But so few people read the hand books, they don't know. For me, the irony is the award now requires the adults go to training where they will learn what the leaders hand books say. But it works, I have watched adults go way out of their way to earn those awards. Barry

>>Right Barry, but probably you would have done that anyway.

>>To those who say "well if we'd just known *that,* we could have avoided all this trouble..." let me ask you what you'd do if a new boy joined your troop and the former SM called you to let you know that he had a real problem with "johnny." So, are you going to prevent "johnny" from joining your troop? Because short of that, I don't see how you would have avoided much of anything. Let the boy's behavior **in your troop** be your guide to how you treat him. If he transfers to another troop, wish him well and facilitate the transfer of his records, then let him be.

There was a time when parents were complaining that the Troop meeting was ending 30 minutes too late. I ask the parents to politely and respectfully talk to the SPL. The problem wasn't that the meeting was long, it was that it started late. A year later a parent who had another son in a different troop was complementing our program because the SPL always started the meeting on time without any adults help. Barry

>>Gossip is never a good thing. It destroys relationships, breaks trust, and rarely helps anyone accomplish anything other than passing around vague half-truths which cause more gossip, accusations, cliques, etc.

Its not just a scout question, I was in similar situation with an adult leader that we asked to leave. The scoutmaster of the troop she joined after us had the same moral dilemma a year later. Barry

I'm not sure they can do that, it used to be a scoutmaster's signature. I've not heard of committee working against the boys. Sounds like the adults need to get some things worked out besides training. Barry