Eagledad

Hi all My wife and I took a train from Oklahoma City to Ft Worth with some friends last weekend and on the train with us were Girls Scouts. I dont know their age, but I would guess about 10 years old. It was interesting listening to other passengers talk about the girls, they didnt know what group the girls belonged with. Until you got close enough to read Girl Scouts on their green T-shirt, they just looked like any other group of girls with the same color T-shirts. That got me reflecting back on a movie Dodgeball. Its a silly movie about adults playing a professional version of the game Dodge ball. In the movie, the rag tag group of adults have to play a Troop of Girl Scouts to qualify for the National tournament. Those Girls Scouts were dressed in the old Traditional Girl Scout uniform, not T-shirts. There was no doubt of their organization. I've read on this forum in the past about changing the Boy Scout uniforms to a more progressive Polo Shirt style that would present a better image to the public. Ive thought about that a lot and wondered if the Boy Scouts really needed an new uniform image. I'm from a different generation and so who knows, but I now think it would be huge mistake. I remember taking our scouts into restaurants while traveling to camps and activities and it was typical for other restaurant patrons to walk over and visit the scouts. Folks just dont go walking over to teenage boys to chat. They had a common interest with these boys and they wanted to talk about it. Most ask where the scouts came from, but in general stories of their scouting experiences squeeze into the discussion. Once a truck driver stopped to talk with our scouts during a gas stop to appologize for the t-shirt she was wearing imply something about sex postions. It was the uniform that motivated a total stranger to approach a group of total strangers to appologize for her behavior. Back to the Dodge Ball movie, it is obvious that the producers were more comfortable with the old school Girl Scout uniforms to identify the organization. The uniform says it without additinal dialoge. I dont think they felt a green T-shirt would pull off the same effect. I also believe this about the boy scout uniform as well. I see the Boy Scout uniform used in TV shows and movies a lot to imply a boy scouting organization. Many times the name of the group is something other than Boy Scouts, but the uniform is still a very close copy of the present BSA Boy Scout uniform. I dont know where this idea that a simple Polo Shirt would give the BSA a better image than the more traditional uniform worn today. After listening to the passengers on the train, I know that the Girl Scouts have not improved their image. Folks dont recognize them now. Now one last thing, to be fair I admit best image scouts can present to the public comes from their actions, not the uniform. I know this from an experience when our troop of 80 very smelly dirty scouts and adults going home from a week of summer camp and a day of white rafting stopped at a busy Pizza Hut in a small town in the Texas panhandle. Because we didnt plan well that day, we were only wearing what we wore for white water rafting. Nothing indicated we were a troop of Boy Scouts. Truth was we adults were a little embarrassed with our dirty smelly group. Anyway, to give each group a break, the adults sat on the opposite side of the restaurant from the scouts and we didnt really pay attention to the scouts side. About 15 minutes after we arrived, the manager of the Pizza Hut brought several pitchers of soft drinks and pizzas to the adult table. When we told him we had not ordered yet, he said that our scouts were so well behaved that the first $100 of pizzas and drinks were on the house. What really stood out to him was how the 60 or so scouts responded instantly to the SPL putting up his sign to get their attention. I threw that in to be fair. But my point is the same. I think the best uniform image the BSA can present to the public is the traditional uniform. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

When we were trying to get the Webelos part of program back up to speed, we wanted them stand out as special more mature scouts that the younger cubs would look forward to joining in their future. I can't remember how, but we came up with boony hats for the Webelos. Booney hats are the military hat soldier where in the field to protect them from the and rain. The can be dropped in the mud, ran over by a car, worn though the rainyest crew trip and still look almost new after one washing. The are so durable that my 29 and 25 year old sons still have their Webelos boony hat. In fact, they wore them on our troop high adventure trips. Anyway there are, or were, at least a dozen different colors and camouflage styles. They couldn't have worked better, the Webelos wore them with pride and the younger ages couldn't wait to be Webelos. I saw the pack not to long ago and the tradition is still going. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I'm Turtle, I don't get it. The CC protects the vision or program objective. Gotta know what that objective is. The CC does their best to deligate (recruit) the best person they can get for each volunteer responsibility. And that's kind of it. Protect that vision and recruit, recruit, recruit. Don't worry about keeping track of advancement, recruit someone to do that. Just make sure the volunteer is trained and doing the job correctly. Don't worry about the Pinewood Derby, just ask the Pinewood chair to give a report at each monthly meeting. The hardest working CCs don't recruit very well and don't understand the volunteers responsibilities. Good luck and have fun with the position. It's very rewarding. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Sure, here is a very common one that is tough. The Scout Handbook describes how and when a scout is suppose to wear the uniform. What if he chooses not to follow the handbook? What if the troop leadership decided to not follow the handbook policy? This is not a uniform discussion, its an ethical discussion. So don't be distracted by those who want to turn the discussion into uniform debate. I presented this to my scouts and they found it very challenging. By the way, I never gave them an answer. I only asked more questions and left it up to them to ponder ethics. Barry

>>I apologize if I have insulted anyone's faith; that was certainly not my intent. But it is just as insulting to my beliefs and values when people on your side call gays and lesbians "not normal, "troubled" or "immoral.">Yet you feel compelled to force every Scout and Scouter obey your God on this issue.>If my faith compels me to accept homosexuality as normal and yours does not, why does yours win out?>Your arguments about why your God orders you to believe X carry no weight with me.

>>If you can give me a reason without quoting religious texts......... I simply want to hear a line of argument that is intellectually honest, because I'm very skeptical that one exists.

>>>> >>Yet your morality and religious doctrine outweighs my morality and religious doctrine.

>> You can quote the Bible all you want, but Scouting is not a Christian organization.

>>Yet your morality and religious doctrine outweighs my morality and religious doctrine.

Yes but there is a moral obligation to not accepting gays in the BSA. Matthew 18:6 "but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. You don't have to be religious to understand that if a troubled young scout is struggling with his sexual identity, acceptance of gay role models could tilt him to choose a wrong or destructive direction. Sadly, its politically incorrect to speak of homosexuality as a destructive lifestyle in todays culture, but that doesnt change the moral obligation for those who dont believe its normal. A person with any doubt that homosexuality is normal should certainly consider the consequenses of being involved with an organization that encourages it as acceptable or normal. Barry

>>On the other hand, I don't think that parents of new scouts are well positioned to intervene with PLs on advancement issues or general program stuff.>I'm all for scouts leading scouts and needing to struggle a little to learn, but PL, ASPL, SPL or any "offical" adult leader in attendance had not checked on this patrol close enough to figure out they were having food safety issues in their patrol!

>>My inclination would be to find the previous Scoutmaster a new job in Scouting outside contact with the Scouts.

>>Survived and as a whole the campout was good. NSP worked well as a team (for the most part) and scouts were successful in completing many advancement requirements for TF and a couple items for 2nd class and one for 1st class. .. 1) SM was gone all weekend with older boys on a Trek (dropped off AM on Sat and picked up Sun PM), a committee member was left in charge of base camp. Not much adult leadership other than making sure the scouts didn't kill each other.

Thinking about this, my ideal dream for a Webelos leader is recruit an ASM and Den Chief from a nearby troop. The ASM has the troop experience to make the Webelos program relate to the Troop, and I found (quite by accident) that the Den Chief experience is one of the best leadership development activities for boy scouts. I have not tried this from a district perspective, but I am curious how well it could work. Barry

>>Perhaps one thing to do is anticipate that most den leaders retire when you get to Webelos.

My wife was an assistant scout leader for our 10 year old daughters Girl Scout Troop. On the last day of a three day camp the leader approached and showed her a notebook filled with several pages of some of the most creative sexually explicit stories she had ever read. Two of her 10 year old girls confessed they had written the stories during camp at night. The leader chose to just show the notebook to parents and let them take it from there. She also asked my wife to report this to what is the Girl Scout equivalent of the SE. My wife expected a simple thank you from the SE and let it go at that. The SE instead asked her to report the two 10 year old girls to the Oklahoma Department of Human Services and the Police Department. My wife called the SE an over reactionary fool and left. She took my daughter out of the program that year for many reasons, but I remember her rather loudly asking why the Girls Scouts couldnt act reasonable like the BSA. Oh well. Barry

>>Scouters who don't like pure NSP's are generally unable to accept the very strong possibility that for a while these boys are going to struggle.

Hi Dean I understand your frustration and concern because we all have the t-shirt. All these phrases keep running through my mind as I read your post. Teach for success, prepare for failure. You dont know what you dont know. Dont do for a scout what he can do for himself, but does he know what he can do for himself?. Truth of the matter is the adults have to learn more about boy run twice as fast because the adult role of knowing how to stand back is harder. Another phrase I like to throw out to adults is "let the scouts struggle almost up to the point where they dont enjoy scouting anymore, than pull back a little to where it is fun". Push yourself to find their limits. Then you know for the next time. To be honest, I think you are getting close to that limit because its one thing for one scout to forget the food, but all of them? Then there will be the battle of who is going to cook and who is going to clean. It goes on and on. They need the struggle, but they need some kind of light at the end of the tunnel as well. You will have to judge. Have courage, don't be afraid because they will also surprise you. Your post points out why its a lot easier with older scouts in the patrol. But you dont have that, so you (the adults) are going to have to train the scouts to succeed. In that, you need to learn how to give them just enough to move two steps forward so that they only go back one step in their struggle. Give them an example of a menu and roster, step back and watch them use them. Give them some examples of menus ideas from the internet, step back and see if they get creative the next time. Little steps, not big ones. Also, when you give them and example, dont stand around and watch to see how it goes, come back later and ask what happen. Laugh at their calamity, ask a couple of questions to get them back on track. You don't have to wait around for the answers, it may take a little while. They only needed the blessing that going backwards was OK, and going forward hurts less. You are trying to push them just out of their comfort zone because that is where they learn, but not so far that they shut down and refuse to learn. I ask new adult leaders "can you expect a 12 year old SPL to lead like a 16 year old?". Be realistic and challenge them to grow around their maturity and experience, not yours. Be careful about giving them examples of progress, you want them to move forward with their vision, not yours. I once watched a couple older scouts suggest awarding beads like Wood Badge to show a level of JLT in the troop. Then I watched an adult kill that idea by dumping his own idea of the sytle and color of beads. He stole their vision and their fun was gone. I never head about it again. Also, go to the scout office and look at the Patrol Leaders Handbook, I think that has an example of a aptrol camp roster and menu. It has guidelines to running a meeting and maybe even how to follow a meeting agenda. Its a lot easier to sit down with the patrol and learn together than stand there above them to read, teach, tell, lecture or whatever they call it from the adult. Imagine a boy feeling equal with the adult. Kind of makes them feel adult, don't it? The disadvantage of same age patrol is that most of the growth will have to come from adults instead of the older scout role models. That is much much harder. But dont get frustrated by the slow pace. Instead figure out how to keep the growth going with as little adult intervention as possible. Get help from the older scouts and SPL and use the handbooks. Never be discouraged of their struggles in front of them, instead act as if you expected it and cheer them on for what they are learning from the experience. And make sure you learn something from their experience as well so that you are a better boy run adult leader the next time because there will be a next time. Remember your goal is for them to grow so that they could function normally if the adults never showed up. They need to practice and get use to that independence. They need to practice trusting that you trust them. It will be hard because they will screw up a lot. But how you handle their screw ups is how they will figure out if the troop is a safe place to ask for help. Is it safe to screw up tolearn in your troop? How much is too much is the balance you have to learn in encouraging them to grow. Boy run is harder for the adults, but its very rewarding. Eventually you will start to get the hang of it and you will love and respect the power of this scouting stuff. Barry

>>. So what is council or district doing appointing a SM????? They cannot do it, Up to the Chartered Organization....>Meanwhile, he's going to have to hold his nose and deal with the paper Scouts. Frankly, I would get them to Eagle as quickly as possible, shake their hand, give them their hats and hold the door open.

Thank you Miki Barry

>>Basically, you want your husband's attention to be on the boys, not their stats.

>> Long-term leaders are desirable for the sake of experience and continuity. If they want to continue, more power to them. If they need to step away, that's understandable. A good point was made in the previous post. Often, a DL and an ADL can switch roles for the next year.

This is a little different than a troop attending two camps with two different programs. In my opinion, the PLC is not being very respectful of its resources. Real life is tough and they need to learn how to make tough decisions. They arent making a tough decision here, it is more like trying to decide between two different chocolate cake desserts. I would tell the PLC that there arent enough adults to pull off their request. They need suck it up and pick a camp. I'm here if they need some advice. As for the dynamics part of the question, we dont do two camps because summer camp is where our scouts practice intense Patrol Method skills. Some of our scouts plan two years a head to try and be elected the SPL this time of year with summer camp because that SPL runs the troop during the week from filling out the tour permit to checking all the vehicles making sure we arent leaving a scout. It is such and intense week for the SPL that the troop pays his camp fees. Honestly I have never understood troops that send their first year scouts to a different camp. Summer camp is where the new scouts get very close to the older scouts and learn how our boy run program really works because they get seven days of total patrol method. Summer Camp is where all the scouts learn how to work as a team and the youth leaders sharpen their leadership skills. Summer camp is a bonding for everyone. It usually such a positive expereince that many of the older scouts are attending their forth or fifth summer camp even while they are heading out again on a High Adventure trek in a couple more weeks. For us, summer camp is too important for the troop dynamics to split it up. If nothing else, save your adult resources for the high adventure trips. Barry (This message has been edited by eagledad)(This message has been edited by eagledad)

>>The troop's QM is responsible for all troop equipment and also supervises the patrol QMs. That's the job he accepted and he's responsible. And QM is a pretty popular job in my troop.

>>Now, givin' a young fellow like yourself advice from afar is a risky and probably foolish business, but take this as a kindness from a fellow who has been there.