Eagledad

Seems there is a misunderstanding of the local option. Local Option simply is the option of sponsoring a BSA unit. Once National takes away membership requirements, the sponsoring organization is left without cover for not accepting gay leaders. Given the choice, sponsoring no unit is a lot less hassle. Barry

When I was a scout, patrols were mixed from ages 10 to 17. Our Patrol leaders usually drove to meetings, so they were typically very experienced and mature. Usually a scout stayed with the same patrol they joined for most of their scouting career. Since new scouts in those days joined by age instead of as a group, the troop and patrols received new scouts all year long. As a result, skills development was a constant all the time patrol responsibility to get the new scouts up to speed. Now I say skills development because from a patrol standpoint, skills development was as much a priority as rank advancement. Patrols back then were very competitive and skills proficiency was important for measuring against each other. So Im not sure that advancement is really a major part of Patrol method. My personal opinion is the advancement method is a high influence on effective leadership, citizenship and personal skills development. Done correctly, the advancement process exposes and develops personal skills that enhance team performance. Advancement also develops personal self-reliance and self-initiative. All those skills enhance the patrol method experience because they sharpen the cohesiveness of a team working together. But they arent team skills, they are personal skills that improve the scouts ability function effectively with others. One example is the recommendation of scouts seeking the MB counselor by contacting the SM, then contacting the counselor to set up meetings, then filling out the MB Card to present to the SM. We found that those three steps greatly help develop the confidence of younger scouts communicating with adults along with developing organization skills through the paperwork process. In fact, we saw that after three MBs, a 10 year old scout had complete confidence in making phone contacts with adults without any need for help or encouragement. That gave them a lot of confidence in how they worked with their patrol mates in their personal patrol responsibilities. We really saw this with older scouts who joined our troop and didnt have these personal skills. But its not just the MB part of the advancement program, teaching a scout to set goals through the process of learning scout skills and taking initiative to complete those skills is a huge growth process in how these scouts work as leaders and team members later on down the road. Its surprising how few Scoutmasters teach scouts that reaching eagle is taking one very small step at a time. Adults are so focused on getting to first class as fast as possible, they set up classes designed for the scout to walk in and just learn A skill instead of teaching the scout to set the goal of picking a skill, setting the goal of completing the skills and initiating the process of finding an instructor to teach and with the result of reaching the goal. Its a huge difference in developing personal skills and independence. Well I can see Im babbling again. My oppologies. Barry

>>I agree with the idea of local option. IMHO, our current position will lead to BSA eventually being forced into the position of allowing gay leaders regardless of CO opinion.

There are a lot of good replies here that describe the problem. And most of them are correctly hitting at the main point that Scouting isn't about advancement, its about growth in the Three Aims of character, fitness and citizenship. Advancement is only one of Eight Methods to achieving those goals as intended by the BSA, but it gets more than its fair share of focus because adults dont really know how to measure progress any other way. Truthfully when done correctly, advancement is toward the top of the list for the impact it can have on a scout of reaching those Three Aim goals. But the problem is most adults in their ignorance of the program focus on the prize of advancement and dont even consider the real objectives of character, fitness and citizenship. MB Colleges, fairs, academies, whatever you want to call them are a good example of focusing on the prizes of advancement and ignoring the three aims. Can those programs be presented so that the scouts get the full impact of developing character, you bet. But the vast majority doesnt because that is not the concern of the planners. This whole discussion is wrapped around the adults misplaced operation of the boy scout program. I see it as a BSA cultural problem because there really isnt much emphasis directing adults otherwise. The First Class rank is traditionall supposed to indicate that the scout has learned all the skills necessary to survive in the woods by himself. Yet, how many here honestly feel comfortable with drooping off their 11 year old scout in the woods for two nights by themselves? What were we really trying to do then by getting the scout to First Class? If adults arent really serious about the skills scouts are supposed to gain from their experiences of advancement, then they aren't going to develop the process of advancement in their program that was intended by the BSA. Or at least the traditional BSA. Barry

>>Just so we can get it out of the way, I'll stipulate now that I'm probably also a terrible parent who has ruined her child's life, I'm a hater of PTA meetings, I failed to show sufficient school spirit at homecoming events in high school, and I'm most likely mean to kittens and puppies, too. As, of course, are all of us who are "pushing a gay agenda" here at scouter.com

>>I am now confused as to what we are discussing on this thread...Taxes on Scout Shoes on Airplane Crashes?

Well of course every program has their own habits and traditions, but each scout in our PLC used the SPL Handbook and Patrol Leaders Handbook to help maintain some continuity between elections and positions. Barry

>> I'm currently putting together a Merit Badge Academy and I can't tell ya how many no's I've gotten or no answers to emails or phone calls

I agree Beav, the first thought about the Tourist Tax article was the repercussion of the tax. For every action there is a reaction. Black market snacks in nearby restrooms? Barry

Well I certainly understand the concern of proper behavior at the memorial, we have the bombing memorial here in Oklahoma City. But I thought the "almost cheerful" atmosphere was an interesting comment. There was a few opinions in the newspaper the last few year commenting how the culture seems to be getting too relaxed in our behaviors. One opinion claimed that dress down fridays are part of the cultural tilt toward rude behaviors. Well, I don't know about that, but I think airlines could make a little more by charging extra for flip flops. Flip flops set the travel dress bar very low and can be a safe issue in a crash. Barry

I'm always intrigued with government attempts to control behavior. It kind of goes under the the heading of The guy with the biggest stick annology I use now and then. But I never expected a Tax to teach us manners? I don't expect a debate NJ, just some interesting reading. It is forbidden to encamp or erect makeshift shelters and stop to eat or drink in zones which have a particular historic or architectural value, reads the ordinance adopted by Rome city council. "This is a way to re-educate people about how to behave in this city. We've let standards fall," Viviana Di Capua, member of an association of historic district residents, told the paper. http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2012/10/02/tourists-snacking-in-rome-could-be-fined-hundreds-dollars/?intcmp=features Barry

>>It should be interesting to see how the projections of the younger generation changing the dynamic goes as they get older. Many of us have found ourselves discarding things about which we had strong opinions as youth, in favor of more middle of the road attitudes.

>>It's damnable that parents push their kids on the track, and horrible that the scout program has put this up as the Big Goal of it all.

I guess I'm too simple about this, I've read your post three times Skeptic and I'm still not sure when this scout was in your troop. Were you troop number two? Anyway, Scouts are pretty smart and I don't think you need to worry about that big of an explination. This is so far off the wall, they get it. In fact, I would guess what they really want to know is how much the adults get it. I once did a SM Minute similar (almost identical) to Twocubs and it made the point point pretty clear. Barry

>>Barry, I certainly hope you aren't suggesting that people keeping their thoughts on controversial issues to themselves, as opposed to taking out their political anger on cub scouts, has anything to do with the first amendment? Because THAT would be ignorant.

>>Ignorant people at grocery stores agreeing with you doesn't make something right.

I agree with Sentinel, well done. You lead into the post using new scouts, but the basis of the post is more about a self-sustaining boy run program. New Scouts in the Patrol Method could be another paragraph, but I'm not suggesting any changes because the well written post stands fine as is. I knew you understood the subject when you lead into it with the older scouts. The quality of the whole program is directly related to the older scouts, so it was appropriate to start there. Well done. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I was afraid of this, its all being used up by the fried Bacon Wrapped Oreos fair venders. Barry

I think its a pretty good approach. It depends a lot on the maturity of the scout. I had one scout who was completely defient, but another one who voluntarily delayed his BOR until he proved to himself he could do better. The personal attack part is important and I understand where you are coming from. You want to come off looking disappointed, not angry. Then he will respect your wisdom and not feel he is just being disciplined by an adult. Try to imagine you are having a discussion with an adult your age. It helps if you only as questions that hopefully guide him in the right direction. Once you start to get lectureous, you risk your emotions taking over and crossing the line. Disapointed, not angry. Also, there is nothing wrong with a continued conference. Ask a question he can't answer, continue the conversation later when he says he's ready. Sometimes the lesson has a lot more impact when you wait for him to realize the wrong in his decision than you explaining that he even made a wrong choice. Good luck, these things take practice. Barry

>>Eagledad, could you please do your fellow forum members a favor, and if your initial post in a thread has nothing at all to do with Scouting, not give the thread a title that implies that it is about Scouting?

Well first of all, get out of the habit of using the scout sign to beat folks into submission. Most adults do it, I know. But that is an inappropriate use of a symbol of respect. Next, assume that you will never have a totally quiet room with the ages involved. And if the parents are part of the problem, well you are really in trouble. The best pack meetings are the ones where the scouts leave exhausted. How do you do that? Well keep them moving and all the time. After the Flag ceremony, do some kind of loud cheer that requires scouts to yell at the top of their lungs for 30 seconds. Trust me, after that, you have their attention for the next few minutes. Then do another yell that requires them to stand and stomp their feet. I always did something like, HEY guys, any time I hold my neckerchief or hat out to my side, you stand and stomp your feet as fast as you can, but once it hits the ground, you have to be totally quiet. See what your are doing is wearing them out a little holding the hat out, and then Im getting total silence when the hat its the floor. They are so worn out by stomping their feet, or yelling, or whatever that they welcome the sudden quiet. And its kind of fun even for them to hear the sudden quiet. Do couple of times in a row so they can hear the the quiet. I found that when the natives start to get restless, I grab my hat or neckerchief and hold it out. I personally dont like the scouts to sit quiet for more than five minutes, so I plan something that will get them moving, but one time the UC did a surprise uniform inspection one meetings. Well there is no way to keep 100 scouts quiet while the UC inspects all the dens. So when the boredom got to the point of scouts teasing their buddy, I ask the UC to pause for a moment and without saying a word I held up my hat and listened to about 30 seconds of foot stomping loud yelling cubs. When the hat hit the floor, the UC was able to finish his inspection in relative calm. NO signs, no yelling to shut up. Just Cub Scout acting their are to harmony. Trust me it works. There are plenty of sources on the internet for hundreds of cheers and yells. Do something different at each meeting so the scouts dont get bored, but think of reasons for them to stand, yell, cheer, scream, stomp their feet, beat the chest, clap their hands, even twirl around three times as fast as they can. Just Wear Them Out. Even do a cheer for each den getting their awards. Award presentations shouldnt be quiet. Scouts like to show theiir respect LOUDLY. As for those silly parents. I always kept a few corny jokes in my pocket to interrupt the meeting. In general, adults like corny jokes that may be even funnier to adults than scouts. HEY Parents, Knock Knock. I also learned that scouts love to see their parents in front of the crowd, so I usually found a CM skit where I asked a few parents to participate. I always ask parents to lead songs. They have to be silly songs that make the parents do silly things because the Scouts love it. That keeps the parents engaged. My Pack meetings for 100 scouts usually last about 50 minutes. That 50 minutes, is packed full with at least two den skits, two walk on skits done by the Webelos, one silly song, at least four corny joke interruptions, three cheers, announcements and awards(awards cheers). Announcements where usually some kind of silly CM skit like coming out on roller blades to announce the roller skating party. Most serious announcements were given in the newsletter handed out to parents at the beginning of the meeting. I couldnt stand boring announcements because the scouts were bored out of their minds. So you can see if the scouts are yelling at the top of the lungs for about 30 minutes. Our scouts are exhausted when they go home. Finally, if I need the audiences attention, I put my sign up for no more than five seconds asking for their respect. Then I jump into the next meeting agenda item even if they arent quite yet. When you move from one agenda item to the next, scouts will learn to get quiet quickly so they dont miss the fun that is coming. But you have to make the meeting something they dont want to miss. I always did a check on myself, if I saw scouts getting bored at any point in the meeting, I was doing something wrong and I changed it. That is how I request the committee put announcements on a newsletter. Your meeting should go fast and have high energy. The last 15 minutes should start to taper down in energy to an end of quiet vespers and retrieving the flags. Whats also fun about this is the scouts siblings will have just as much fun yelling and jumping around they will look forward to the pack meetings as much as their brother. If you get the parents involved with songs, skits and jokes, you will find that your meetings are look upon as a fun family night. It will take a little practice, but give it a try. I really love this scouting stuff. Barry

Well at least it's not hate speech yet! ""France set to ban words 'mother' and 'father' on official documents under plans to legalize gay marriage"" http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/09/25/france-set-to-ban-words-mother-and-father-under-plans-to-legalize-gay-marriage/ "This could have innumerable consequences. Afterward they will want to create couples with three or four members. And after that, perhaps one day the taboo of incest will fall," he said, according to the report." Barry

>>But the real problem here isn't with the parent, rather with the CC.> His response to the parent should have been, "let's get Mr. Ohana and your son involved and figure out what's going on."

Yes, I agree the title isn't accurate to the story. The story was presented to show how cultural morality has degraded to where early teen sex is expected and even supported. Barry

>>OGE I like that..... But facebook has a 13 year old minimum......