Eagledad

Our troop kind of works like Kudu's, but we called his ad hoc patrols adventure patrols. Something I try to mention once in a while that Kudu hints at is that not all scouts like big adventure. Many are in the troop for other reasons like socializing or leadership. I once polled the older scouts in our troop (43) and only 16 said they enjoyed going on the big high adventure treks every year. . We created our adventure patrols so scouts with different intrest could pull a bunch of scouts with like minded interest to go on their own outings. Many times that group is in the same troop campout, but doing more advanced activities. But saying that while many scouts arent into the Philmont type of adventure all the time, we are a backpacking troop. In most cases, our patrols could easily pack their gear and do a 5 mile trek without any preparation. So all our scouts do have some level of back country skills. In fact, a surprise hike would help the scouts learn where they need some practice, and it will be fun for most. Also Twocub's suggestion of just stepping the campouts up a notch works well. We added in canoeing a few times when were near a lake. We once did a backpack/biking/canoeing campout where the scouts got up, packed, hiked, and biked to a different campsite. The had so much fun because they redid all those activities during free time the rest of the day. They were dead a sleep by 8:30 that night. And, we did all that at a local camp. The campsite they moved to was only a few hundred feet from the first. I think you are in a good place. You are just in the rut of creativity. What we did when we hit this same wall and what Kudu is suggesting is open the program more and encourage the scouts to create some of their own minnie adventures that gives them more of that sense of freedom and independence. Most boys by nature soak up freedom and independence like a dry sponge. It also makes a boy feel more adult when the adults show a trust of their skills. Finally, so that you don't feel you are getting away from the values part of the program, set some requirements on them. A wise old SM suggested having our youth leaders always include activities under the themes of character, fitness, and citizenship. Surprisingly it's not as hard as it first sounds, most of the activities already require the scouts to do some action under those ideals. But preplanning them helps them see the noble side of the scouting program. The scouts really enjoyed taking ownership of those ideals. I nener had to ask what they planned, they were proud to show me. Lots of gold stuff here, it's a fun read. Barry

>>Can you elaborate on this non-answer? What "normal" morals don't gays follow?

>>I'd really love someone to explain to me just what is different between gay morals and straight morals,

>>They are expecting the young men to figure this out and automatically start Guiding and Enabling younger scouts when the older scouts have not been properly taught themselves.

>>I will say this... not having the experience of some of the folks here... and not wanting to experiment on a whole group of kids....

>>I found as SM, I most often took the easy path of less conflict.

>>For exactly the problems you describe, fully mixing ages top to bottom doesn't work any better than aged-base patrols. Integrating patrols by age requires that all your older scouts are good at and ejoy working with younger kid. Clearly, that's not going to be the case.

>>The balance between letting buddies all stick together and having a good mix of ages is not a simple fix.

I admire your vision for an integrated troop attitude. My experience is that mixed age patrols work best for an integrated troop culture. But I will let you research ideas for your approach. What I wanted to point out is that you have nature working against you at the moment, so you need to persevere with that approach over time. It can't happen overnight and here is a couple reasons that experienced scouters have learned: Boys before puberty are like dry sponges absorbing just about everything they see from the mentors around them. Not lecture, but actions. And by mentors, I mean those they respect and like, which are usually older boys. Boys after puberty are like fully soaked sponges that are no longer learning because nature, through puberty, has rewired the boy into a man ready to take on the world using only the knowledge he learned before puberty. What you have at age 14 is basically what you have the rest of their scouting career. Humans after puberty basically only learn new knowledge when it benefits their personal perspective of life, like girls. What Im saying is older scouts rarely accept new programs changes. New scouts are required to change program cultures because they are still a dry sponge. You already admit the problem of aged base patrols creating segregation with the scouts in the troop. That is natural because animals by nature hide in the herd they trust for their survival. So you have to develop the safe herd you want the young scout to learn on his first day and the old scout trust on his last day. The obvious answer to reaching your vision is directing a program with a lot of activities where young scouts observe and work with scouts of all ages all the time. But the Key to a successful cultural change is total acceptance of this model before puberty. As I said, you are in most cases stuck with the scout you got after puberty, so focus on the young scout, not the old. Change comes when the young student becomes the old trusted mentor. Whatever approaches you decide to use to shape your program, plan on a couple of years of persistence before you see a general acceptance of your vision. Good luck Barry

>>I'd like to hear from National how they've received additional funding from others that offset the losses from UPS, Intel and the United Way. It's not about big company donors or membership like most people think, it's the big donor alumni. A vast amount of support comes from alumni and it's that support that the BSA is resting (has always rested) it hat on. It's hard to know the tipping point of pop culture morality over the support of aging alumni, but you can be assured that money tips the scale. Barry

>>I vote for the virtural Roundtable. Anyone else who wants to get together monthly is more than welcome to continue to do so.

This might be a red flag Backroads, it's my observation that whining professionals don't last very long. It's not going to get better. Barry

Just to be clear, this guy was just quoting something said 50 years ago and you are offended by the language of the quote? I can understand, some words are offensive even from quotes. I can think of a few words that might motivate me to say something. I kind of the same experience yesterday, I work in a predominately liberal department and a couple of folks were having a discussion about the election in the hallway that would be offensive to most Christians. They did not know anyone could hear the conversation. Should I have said something? One final thing about this subject, we have had discussions on this forum about how much tolerance should be given to scouts cussing. Some scouters here are pretty tolerant, but shouldn't we set an example to prepare scouts for their adult life like in your experience above? Barry

I think the approach to a successful scouting experience for both the adults and scouts is keeping it local. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Brewmeister says it perfectly when he talked about folks seemingly to taking a perverse delight in the missteps in the scouting program. But when I look back on my scouting experience as a youth and adult, those are some of my best memories of my life. My sons say the same thing. Not sure about their mom who was a Scoutmasters widow for a few years, but I know scouting has a permanent warm place in the memories of our family. When news is bad, and it seems bad all the time anymore, turn it off and take the scouts out in the woods. Making good scouting memories really isn't allthat hard. I remember one time my Webelos assistant called me about an hour before a den meeting to tell me about the eagle watch at our local lake. We dumped the original den meeting plans and took the scouts to the lake to watch eagles. It was pretty cold and after about 45 minutes of no eagles, we built a fire. One of the adults just happen to have a bag of marsh mellows, so we roasted marsh mellows, laughed, joked and basically enjoyed the scouting fellowship of the moment. We accomplished nothing that day, and yet one of the scouts reminded me of that day six years later at his Eagle COH. You just never know what can turn into a great scouting memory. If we are to keep the true scouting in perspective, we need to do real scouting stuff that has the most impact on our lives and the lives or our youth. We need to focus on our local scouting stuff. When the news starts to weigh heavy on us, turn it off and go to a scout activity. If nothing else, just watch boys in action. Start tuning out the malcontents on this forum and instead help a fellow scouter asking for little advice. If you had a great scouting day, tell us about it. Oaktree graciously sends me some of his Troop emails that warm my scouting heart. He lives 1500 miles away, so I have never met his scouts, but I seem to put a face on every scout in his mails. Do the stuff that makes us feel good to be scouters. If its good for us, it's good for the Scouting program. Do those things that helps us love this scouting stuff. Barry

All good stuff here. On the high adventure, it's OK for adults to push exciting adventures, large or small. Sometimes adults need to push fun stuff into the program. But a lot of units hesitate because they lack experienced adults. The suggestion of starting small like doing a five mile backpacking weekend trip is a good way to start because it doesnt require a lot of gear or planning, but it points out what needs to be learned. That is how we started and we are now one of most active high adventure programs in the district. It took some pushing by the adults at first to get some momentum, but once we got the first big trek out of the way, the scouts couldnt get enough. Also, you can check around with other troops and organizations to find experts who will come in and train your troop. We went to a local military base to find experts for our rappelling campout and they were very excited to spend a month training us at the troop meetings and then helping at the campout. One of our adults became so involved with rappelling after that campout that he ended up the Council rappelling trainer a few years later. We found a canoeing expert in another troop who prepared us for Northern Tier. Our troop took lessons from a local Scuba shop that help the troop plan a trip to Mexico. Another adult had access to a condo so we started taking scouts snow skiing every year. Its really just taking the first small step and getting scouts excited about adventure opportunities. Once a scout comes up with some crazy idea, its just a matter of the adults saying yes and helping the scout research how to make it work. Barry

I am just throwing out thoughts. First off, the problem we found with Simi annual PLC activities like training, teambuilding and annual planning campouts is that after the scouts have done it once or four times, they didnt look forward to it the next. Its a big problem for experienced scouts who are on the PLC for a couple years. And campouts were the worst because they take up a whole weekend without getting all that much accomplished, plus they are all that much fun from a boy perspective. We through the years evolved from campouts and whole weekend planning/training sessions to short two hour training sessions or overnight lock-ins. The scouts typically to the annual planning with a lock-in. They spent the first few hours doing the planning, then the rest of the night playing computer games. Its short and fun. Some of the scouts think its one of the best benefits of being on the PLC. We also did a one night two hour training session the week before or the week after the lock-in. That training required all members of the PLC and all adult mentors. We spent the first hour reviewing the Aims, Methods, boy run and the hierarchy of CO down to the new scout. The intent was showing everyone our vision and how we work toward that vision. The adult mentor and scout for each PLC position reviewed the scouts job responsibilities during the second hour as well as setting some realistic goals for the socuts next six months with his responsibilties. What we found is that by condensing the planning, training and job review into just a few hours, we didnt have the problem of scouts dreading the activity after they had done them several times before. Instead they looked forward to getting the specific information without spending a whole weekend. Bascially we asked the scouts how to make these things fun and this is the result. As I said, I am not expecting folks to follow our example, I just wanted to throw other ideas out there. Since you are going to do the campout, I would set the goal that the scouts come home basically knowing the schedual for the next year, their job responsibilities, your goals for the program, and how they fit in that plan. Truth of the matter is most scouts could really care less with your vision or aims or methods, but reviewing those things show them that there is a method to the madness. As for your PLC not taking ownership yet, I remember when our troop was stuck there and for us it was the adults that were in the way. We were still taking on too much responsibility of the activities. The scouts didnt feel the ownership because they were taking feeling the responsibility of the troop performance. We started asking the scouts to review the program at the end of each night whether it was the Troop meetings or campouts. The idea was getting them to give ideas to what they could do better the next time, then push them to make those changes. Its a bit of a slow process with the hardest part holding the adults back. If you see a crash about to happen, its best to let it happen so the scouts feel the burn of failure. The burn should be motivation to change. Implementing change that improves the program develops ownership. Hope that helps at least a little. Barry

>> I think most intelligent people dislike the BSA's policies,

Well then the troop is probably in a bad place because it appears there is nobody at the wheel. You certainly can't hold the troop on track as the occasional visitor, especially at this difficult stage in the program. There is certain finesse in using just enough adult guidance to nudge scout independence in a positive direction and that requires a full time mentor. The mentor doesnt even have to be all that experienced, but they do need to know where the troop is going to know when the program has stalled. Until then, its like a blind man herding cats. Eventually the adults will take full control because they don't see boy run working. You seem to have a lot invested in this troop, but I think you are going to drive yourself miserable if you dont either take more responsibility or get completely away. Barry

Well, it just sounds like a program with no vision. Scouts don't have a clue what they are supposed to do, adults don't know either, so it's a bunch of cats running around trying to find something to keep their mind busy. Sometimes a leader here will spout out let the scouts figure it out and I cringe. This is the perfect example of why you just can't send young scouts into the woods without skills or goals and expect them to come back a well oiled machine. That is not boy run. There has to be some expectations to guide a transformation of personal performance. Chaos is not fun, even for young scouts. It doesn't sound like a bad bunch of kids really. Given a good leader of vision, I think these guys could run a great troop. You up for the task Eagle92? Time to see just how good you are. As frustrating as it seems at first, the rewards of building a good program are much more satisfying than just maintaining one. Barry

I confront when I feel something is wrong, rules are for sissys. Barry

>>But when it comes down to Eamonn's standards I wonder if it's fair that I have the same expectations from them as I do from my son?

I agree that scouts and adults need to be in shape for long hikes and high altitude hikes. However, even though I preached to our crews to get in shape for their treks, they basically ignored me. And I never had a scout physically struggle with backpacking anymore than any other scout in the crew as long as they carried a reasonable pack weight to their body weight. Most of my struggling scout problems were mental, which is much harder to deal with. Kids today in general can handle the kind of backpacking most troops do without a lot of conditioning. Im not saying dont do any conditioning, its not as much a problem as one would think. Adults on the other hand need to get in shape. And I have to agree with both Base and Seattle, I would much prefer backpackers carry a maximum of 25% of their body weight with a goal of 20% because it just makes the trip more enjoyable. But I have seen scouts carry more than 40% without complaining. It can be challenging, my son weighed 105lbs when he went to Philmont his first time. It is next to impossible to carry a pack of personal gear, crew gear and food for under 25 lbs. At least back then, light weight backpacking is a lot more popular today. Im curious, does the SM now have to approve scouts under 14 to go on treks? What about whole troops that backpack? Barry

This isnt an election issue, it is about character growth and how the adult encourages that growth. We must remember that character is our goal and the activities of the program are just ways for scouts to see themselves making decisions. These scouts are not acting as servant leaders of the troop. They are instead being self-serving by competing against each other to be top dog and dragging the troop down to their level of immaturity. They are being prideful, which is not a trait of a servant leader. Servant leadership is outward actions of humility, not self-pride. So how do we adults get scouts to see their actions in self-serving mirror, we ask them to reflect their behavior against the Scout Law and Oath. The points in the Scout Law are outward actions of humility. Every action by a scout toward others should be measured against the scout law. The Scout Law is a perfect guide of servant leadership and is an easy guide for the adults when they need a scout to see their wrong choices. The discussion with the scouts needs to go the direction of respecting each others responsibilities, and at the very least following the other scouts duties of leadership Cheerfully even when they dont agree. The problem new adult leaders have is getting scouts to change focus from themselves to focus to those they serve. The Scout Oath sets the priority of god, county, and other people. The main point here is that the scout serves himself last, not first. The Law directs the proper actions of serving others. Personally I would first sit down with scout each separately and teach them the difference between servant leadership and self-servant leadership and the advantages and disadvantages of each style. I would then remind them of the how the Law and Oath work in the scouts decisions. Then my style of working with scouts is getting them to reflect their decisions to the law and then leave them to ponder on it. For a scout to want to change, he has to discover on his own the motivation to change. Once I did that and allowed the scouts to think about it, then I would encourage the SPL to meet with the ASPL and discussion how they can work together. The hard part here is not the scouts behavior, its how we adults guide the scouts to see it so that they are motivated to change. Its not easy and it takes practice. But we do have the Scout Oath and Law to hlep us if nothing else. Character change only happens when we dont like ourselvees when we see how we react to stress. Leadership is one of the best ways for a scout to be stressed. Since we know leadership is stressful and our character will come out with stress, we adults need to be prepared that the scouts will need some guidance. Not much really, but something that gets them to see themselves and how they are making decisions. If we dont do it here in the troop, then where? Barry

>>It was a truly pleasant experience.

Welll, more laws to force tourist to behave: http://townhall.com/columnists/debrajsaunders/2012/10/09/even_in_sf_there_is_no_free_naked_lunch ""Both Wiener and Richards blame out-of-towners for coming to the Special City to go bald. The problem, noted Wiener, is that these stark-naked tourists are "undermining the neighborhood."""" """One naked guy may be a nuisance, but too much nudity begets too much crudity. It degrades the social fabric. For San Francisco's political class, you might say, stark-naked people have become the new pothole.""" Yet another example of governement "exposing" itself as the judge of personal behavior. It seems tourist are the scourge of the earth. Or at least potholes. Barry