The male mystic

[drmbear 10]

I've spent a whole lot of time between my Scouting-as-a-youth time and my now adult-leader time exploring what I'll call "men's work." I went through the Mankind Project's New Warrior Training Adventure (mkp.org) and have been part of the leadership for a regional men's gathering for many years (menswork.org). Some of the best information I have ever found talking about what it means to be a man are: "King, Warrior, Magician, Lover - (male archetypes)" by Gillette & Moore, and "Angry Man, Passive Man" by Marvin Allen.

 

I can honestly say that I'm all for equality for all, and I have no doubts about the abilities of women to effectively do most of anything any man can do. To me, that is not the issue. The issue is more about what a Scout aged boy really needs. Looked at cross-culturally, over hundreds and thousands of years, boys develop and mature into men by interacting and becoming part of a community of men. Of course, that is assuming there is a community of mature men they can interact with, and that is hard to come by in our society. Even the books I've read on this say that since men went to work in factories and offices, the industrial age, the underlying maturity of men has suffered since boys grew up without good mature adult males to interact with. My observation is that it is rare to find men with actual maturity much beyond five years old, despite size, age, education, knowledge, etc., but that is an entirely different topic, that I actually have to work on for myself as much as for anyone.

 

My point of all this is that it was significant to me during my Scout years in the 1970's, that there were adult men and that I was able to interact with other males on our outings, campouts, etc., during that time. 20 to 30 years ago I probably would never say this, but my time spent learning and studying how boys grow into men indicates to me that women really shouldn't be out as Scoutmasters/ASM's, camping, etc., as direct contact leadership for Boy Scout troops regardless of how capable they are. And that is even understanding the difficulty we have in finding good leaders, which is a shame. Men and women are just different - equally capable - but still different. And my guess is that since we've had multiple generations of girls also growing up without as many mothers regularly available nearby, there is just as much need for girls to have adult, mature women around as they grow to adulthood.

 

Just something to think about - not meaning to cause craziness!!!

[Oak Tree 15]

Yes. This is a problem.

 

(I'll put in another plug to check out

or http://tinyurl.com/4uhympy for more disucssion on this topic.)

 

How do we stunt the hunter, warrior? (I'm not sure about gatherer). Zero-tolerance policies. Be nice.

What do we do to the adventurer? Sit still. Don't take risks.

 

I'm not sure I get number 3. It seems like women still like men. I agree men want women. They want to be admired and respected and loved. But women still like bad boys, I think. Or are the nice guys getting all the women now? The biggest change I see here is that women no longer need a man to be the provider, and that's a bit of a change, but don't let that stop you from going out and winning a woman.

 

By and large, women are doing much better in colleges than men are now.

 

What to do?

 

Go forth, men! Play with rocks, and knives. Climb trees. Run with scissors! Throw off the shackles of your quilting club. Go compete! Take on some intellectual challenges and don't apologize for being smart! Challenge authority! Decide for yourself when the G2SS should apply! Buy a car with a big engine. Stomp on the gas pedal. Enjoy the throaty roar. Impress the women. Go work out with a buddy and see who can lift the most weight. Look a woman in the eye and ask, "How you doin', baby?" If she blows you off, find another. There are plenty of fish in the sea, and you can win one.

 

The male mystique is not about being a nice guy. It's about going after your goals, being confident and self-assured, being interesting, being a maverick. When you're being nice to people, make it obvious that you're putting a veneer of civilization on top of a guy who would be quite willing to shoot someone if necessary. You are a large member of the cat family, prowling the jungle. You look good, you walk confidently, and people have the sense that it's dangerous to provoke you.

 

Aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

 

(Wow, I feel great.)

[Stosh 3452]

LOL! We have a man in the shipping department that handles huge pieces of equipment heading out the door. Biker is an understatement. He's huge, beard, long hair pulled back in a pony-tail, wears a sheath knife with a large brass ball on the hilt, has a look in his eyes that will make your blood run cold. I don't know if he owns a Harley, but if he doesn't, he should.

 

Yet he's a soft-spoken, quiet man. Does his job and is well liked by his fellow workers, gets along with everyone around him, a man's man. However, if in the midst of a conversation with this man things aren't pleasing to him, he begins to rub the ball on the hilt of his sheath knife. I don't know what comes after rubbing the hilt, and I don't know if anyone has ever pushed the issue. At least in terms of #1) Warrior, protector, etc. there was no doubt this was a dangerous man, but he was still one of the "nicest" guys in the plant. (Just don't cross him!)

 

Stosh

[Engineer61 19]

So, had Ritalin existed in 1930, we might have averted 73 million dead.

 

 

I remember the ADD/ADHD kids in school...

 

... the ADD's were all labeled mentally retarded and put in special ed

 

... while the ADHD's were the ones going out into the hallway 2-3 times a week getting "boarded".

 

Both were short changed.

 

 

[packsaddle 753]

Oak Tree, I liked that.

Engineer61, I have a couple of very close young ADD friends who fit your description. One of them even WITH ritalin was told by his private school (full of Stepford teachers and children) that his future was probably prison. His parents pulled him and he flourished in the public schools. He went on to graduate with honors in (what else?) mechanical engineering. The other one, also in public school, figured it out in high school and went on to graduate with high honors in (again what else?) electrical engineering and physics (both degrees in 2 1/2 years). He's now at CalTech finishing his PhD in physics. Your last words have a strong ring of truth. In a different set of circumstances, either of them could have lived 'down' to the expectations of judgmental persons.

[Stosh 3452]

While I am not a doctor, I have observed a few things along the way with working with kids that has peaked my interest. I do seem to notice that a lot of people who have been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD tend to be very intelligent people. A lot of "not paying attention" has been attributed to both ADD/ADHD as well as being bored out of their skull with mundane things that would cause most others to mentally wander away from such boring situations, too.

 

If there be, even if it's a small percentage of these people, someway to engage this intelligence into a more appropriate means it would be a gold mine of opportunity for them.

 

One of my daughters was pegged for advanced math in high school. They wanted her to get into a "gifted" group of high math achievers. She immediately noticed that while all the "regular" math students got to do only the odd or even questions the advanced students got to do them all. Her comment to me was, "I'm not stupid, I don't want to be in the gifted class only to do twice the work." She dropped out of the advanced math group, went on to win the math achievement award when she graduated as valedictorian of her class. She went on to a big engineering school only to drop out, get married and have kids. She's now finishing up college locally working towards a degree in the food service. She's finally working on her own dreams.

 

Her brother, equally gifted was diagnosed ADD was on Ritalin and just barely graduated. The school was open concept and while he was supposed to be listening in class, was instead tuned into other classes around him 2-3 pods away that were higher grades and more interesting. Today he can't maintain relationships, can't hold a job, tried the military and washed out, etc. etc. etc. He's still seeking and has no help in focusing his dreams.

 

Instead of limiting these students, what are we doing to encourage their extra energy? The system at its present state does not allow for it. It's easier to give them Ritalin and keep them under control than it is to let them be who they are and develop a system that would focus their energies appropriately. Most public schools do not have the time or patience to do this.

 

My third daughter graduated college worked for many years in a big business cubicle, just one day said enough's enough. At age 30, she enrolled in a tech school for carpentry and her dream now is to be a supervisor for a Habitat for Humanity crew and do what her heart really wants to do, swing a hammer. She's a bit of a tom boy, always was, always will be. Too masculine for a woman? Not really, just got married to a nice guy that IS a carpenter and the two plan on sharing the same dream. Last Christmas when I was shopping with her to pick out a gift for my grandchild, we wandered through the Barbie section of Walmart. She excused herself and wandered off for about 15 minutes. When she returned I asked her what she was looking for. She said, "Nothing, with all the pink in the Barbie isle, I needed to go over to home improvement until my life's equilibrium balanced back to normal."

 

Each of them, successful or not in my estimation, are all working on what they think are their dreams, not what some system, culture, or society says they should be. I hope that I have given them support in what it is they want out of life.

 

I run the same philosophy with my scouts. What are their dreams, their hopes, and then help them get there. There's no system for that, but theoretically, BSA is one of the few programs out there that has something like that in the fine print at the bottom of the page.

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

Stosh (aka Don Quiote)

[vol_scouter 365]

Stosh,

 

It is sad to hear that another unit succumbs to political correctness by removing you and controlling the youth. In response to your queries:

 

1) Man is a hunter, gatherer, warrior. Agreed! Our PC society condemns all of these activities. We are to emasculate our boys because everything manly as you mention is wrong at best and more likely, evil. Many on the left say that families are better off without a father because males are disruptive and teach the wrong values.

 

2) Man is not a home-body, he needs adventure. PC gets you again! Outside is dangerous!! Our boys could actually be, hold your breath now, HURT! So boys are compelled to play indoor games instead of spending time outside using their imaginations.

 

3) Man needs a woman to claim and protect for his own. Once again, PC and the left say that men are not needed in families. The only use for men is to fertilize women. Women are taught that they do not need men in their lives. In the 27 years that I have been in hospitals first as a medical student then as a physician, I have overhead thousands on conversations between nurses who are complaining about boy friends or husbands. In all of those years, I have heard exactly one time that the advice was to stick with him and work it out. The advice is always "If he doesn't make you happy, kick him out". This is what society deems as the correct response. Rather than, life with anyone is difficult and no one will ever make you happy 100% of the time.

 

So, Stosh, until society realizes that political correctness is destroying our society and therefore our country, the attack on our boys will continue. My son, an Eagle who has a PhD in a technical field and is married, said it best as a youth when he pointed out that the school system and society condemned everything that he and his friends wanted to do and they way they acted. No wonder so many males are angry and disillusioned.

[IM_Kathy 32]

as a female I have to post...

 

but being a non-traditional female I find a lot of this funny. if you saw my husband you'd swear he was a typical strong male... you'd be wrong LOL... his nickname for a long time has been "hander of tools" sure until our kids got old enough he mowed and did the snow, but everything else is my job. He HATES to camp, fishing he'll do but he always hopes he doesn't catch anything LOL... I'm the one that has taken the kids into the woods, taught them to fish, taught them to clean the fish, and cook 'em in many different ways.

 

I camp a lot with both my son's BSA troop and my daughter's GS troop... and with both I teach them the very same skills. I believe it's important for them both to learn that they can do all of the skills without having to rely on some guy to do this stuff or some woman to do that stuff -- they all need to do it all.

 

My son's troop for a long time had only the men camping and then he joined and I would go when I could... I think that 1 thing the boys have learned is that yep women can do all that they can do too --- even pee in the woods LOL.

[qwazse 4342]

That reminds me, in many tribal societies, the woman builds the home, butchers the game, tans hides, carries water (sometimes more on their heads than guys have ever carried on their backs), lights fires, etc ...

 

So while guys may need to grow up with male role models, they also need to learn to respect the women in their lives. That's why I think female ASM's and SM's are needed, as long as they can tone down the (s)mothering behavior!

 

Moms who've camped with us have managed to do this, and I think it's helped boys to actually work on that "mystique."

 

 

[Stosh 3452]

IM_Kathy,

 

Thanks for weighing on on the subject.

 

I want to first say that I hope this response does not come off judgmental in any way, shape or form. Just some questions. (just for pensive reasons, there will be no test at the end of the post.)

 

Your husband... when he was 3-4 years old and he was forming his future plans, i.e. what do I want to be when I grow up, did any of them materialize the way he wanted them to be, or at least a close representation?

 

If he wanted to be some sort of idealistic policeman, fireman, race car driver, adventurer, etc. and he ended up an accountant in a cubicle of a large corporation, what happened along the journey? If his life's dream was to make lots of money and that meant sitting in a cube for a few years, maybe that would be different because the journey hasn't ended yet.

 

But how many start out one way and then maybe settle for something else, never really being satisfied and often times feeling bummed out about it.

 

If all he wanted to do is grow up be a good father, good husband and provide for them, then he's meeting his goals. Heck, after 60 years I'm still looking for a woman to do my laundry, cook my meals, clean my house, and all I have to do is run around and have fun. That's what I started out, but as maturity set in I realized those childhood dreams needed to mature, too. But did I ever settle for something else?

 

Did I ever become the heroic warrior? No, but I have saved many people's lives over the years. Does it fulfill some childhood dream, ... kinda. It was neat to have had the opportunity a few times in my life to save someone else's life. Did I plan for it? .... kinda, I learned some skills along the way.

 

But now after 60 years do I ever sit back and regret? No. It's been quite a ride. However, can most men say that? What percentage? If they say things changed and they settled for something less, what are the dynamics that might have short-circuited the hard-wiring? Domineering mother?, lackadaisical father?, female rejection? ????

 

With divorce rates running as high as they are, how many young boys dreamed of growing up and being divorced? How many dreamed of growing up and being a whimp? How many dreamed of growing up and producing a dysfunctional family? the list can go on forever. What are the dynamics in our society that are producing such things and why are men settling for it when it happens?

 

qwazse,

 

The examples you give are the female's role in those tribal societies, those roles that revolve around home and family. If the camp is attacked, the males are still expected to take up the weapons. If hungry, the males are still expected to go out and hunt, that's what he does to protect the family. Only if the home/family is directly attacked does the female attempt to defend, but will only defend her own family. She is not interested in providing a wide berth protective for the whole tribe, only her own family.

 

Most pictures of these societies show the male with the weapons and the woman with the child propped on her hip. Differing roles both with the same goal. He doesn't stir the cook pot and she doesn't mess with his weapons.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[Eagledad 2777]

>>Moms who've camped with us have managed to do this, and I think it's helped boys to actually work on that "mystique

[Stosh 3452]

It goes back to #3. What Romeo ever disrespected his Juliet? One has to hold someone in very high esteem if they are going to dedicate their life to protecting and providing for them and the family that will result.

 

Stosh

[Old_OX_Eagle83 212]

Good food for thought. I've read several works that have simular messages. The question is are these learned behaviors?

[Stosh 3452]

Psychology is not an exact science so I don't think they will ever be able to definitively answer that question. However, there are certain things that seem to hold true regardless of what the experts have to say, such as: we as a society spend a lot of time teaching our kids how to behave, no one spends any amount of time teaching them how to misbehave. Somehow they have that one figured out a long time before psychology ever has a chance to act on it. Unfortunately we haven't figured out what is really hard-wired and how much is environmentally altered after the fact.

 

Stosh

[Basementdweller 608]

Being from a poor area of town I deal with a lot of single moms alpha females I call them.

 

A number of them are man haters, just that simple. The way the treat me and the SM is pretty sad, I can only imagine what their home lives are like. But mom brings them to scouts cause they need a male influence in their lives.

 

I will say that most of what we view as problems with todays young men are caused by US men. Divorce followed by abandonment....How many scouts do you know have never met dad, I can think of about 6 I know of for sure.

 

How many only see dad once a month or twice a month???

How about all of the single moms who bring home a dad for a night????

How many boys have experienced multiple divorces?

 

 

I believe it all falls back to the end of the traditional family.....Blended family's can be a mess. Step dads who are not allowed to discipline step son or daughter, seen this and it is a mess..... I have seen some really great blended families, but they are not the norm.