The male mystic

[packsaddle 753]

I know what you mean. Worse, when my children were still very young we had a social circle that was mostly single moms. I was often the only adult male. And after a couple of pitchers of peach daquiris, they could be brutal. For a few hours it was a perfect world for them, a male horsing around and swimming and playing and basically watching all the kids, totally distracted during all this, which freed them to sink back into their lawn chairs and verbally brutalize males, me included. And my wife wouldn't defend me!

(but that's ok because I was already covered with scars from back when girls used to dare each other to touch me with a 10ft pole)

 

I often remarked to my wife that there was a good probability that our children would marry someone from a single parent family. I was right.

Interestingly, in our case though, it has swung in the other direction. The spouse from the single parent family is incredibly strong in his/her insistence on a close-knit family. So at least part of the world is not going to that mythical hot place.

[Stosh 3452]

I toured the International Crane Foundation a few years back and watched the imprinting process they used to make sure the young chicks did not bond to human handlers and thus keep them from being able to function in their own real world. Elaborate hand puppets fed them, and fully costumed handlers were the only people allowed to raise these chicks.

 

Yet, what imprinting is put upon our young?

 

Ineffective father, divorces and mom raises the kids either alone or with an ineffective step-dad ("You're not my REAL dad!"). The vast majority of our youth in America fall into this category.

 

Boys thus have no imprinting model to follow, except Mom. Women used to grow up and marry men that were like their dads, well that isn't happening either. So both the male and female of the traditional family social structure are short-changed.

 

So how does one resolve the conflict between natural instincts and the alteration of imprinting on our children. We have the "whimpy momma-boys" and the "agressive tom-boys" or worse yet the term reserved for the female of the canine/lupine family, and all are expressed with a negative tone to it.

 

If it's broke, why is everyone accepting the status quo and not trying to reverse the negative spiral?

 

I hear in many of the forum threads, allusions to this "problem" and yet it is accepted and often times promoted. If we aren't involved in the process/program of raising up men, what is it we are creating?

 

Like the old margarine commercial, it's not nice to fool Mother Nature, but isn't that what we are all about in many things we do?

 

I never wanted to grow up to be a divorced, administrative assistant when I grew up. I wanted all my kids to be well adjusted and happy, that didn't work either. I had great plans and somewhere along the way, the world around me kept telling me no. I listened only to those who said yes and all it did was get me into trouble. In the back of my mind I always believe in and honor the efforts of the salmon. This "stupid" fish will risk it all to swim upstream so that the species will survive yet another generation. Anyone have a human analogy that can beat that one?

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[perdidochas 658]

Well, I think most of us who participate on this forum (and in Scouting in general) are trying to reverse the trend, and produce good men out of boys.

[MattR 2659]

Speaking of imprinting, if boys tend to imprint from dads and girls tend to imprint from moms then the typical broken family will tend to hurt the boy more than the girl. Is this why male graduation rates are below female rates? I wouldn't be surprised. Girls and boys think differently and if you don't understand how a kid thinks it's hard to help them grow up.

 

That said, I still struggle getting scouts to take responsibility

 

[Stosh 3452]

I don't think imprinting is restricted only to men/boys and women/girls. As I said, girls tend to seek out men who are like their fathers and boys definitely need to learn compassion and nurturing from their mothers. The problem lies in the breakdown in marriages. If a girl's father has been ousted from the household as the rat that he is, what model will the girls have to follow? And what model will a boy have if his mother is out of the picture when it comes to taking care of anyone but himself.

 

There are several dynamics that add to the mix of the hard-wiring for boys. Unless the warrior/hunter has someone to protect and provide for, i.e. his golden-haired maiden, then his aggression is only for his own self-serving interests. A good patrol leader has characteristics of both father (leader) #1 warrior/protector and mother (care for his patrol members) #3 someone to care for. Add to that #2 - adventure, and all are taught in the BSA. Who's showing him all these things in equal balance? Another male who can say, been there done that. A female SM might be able to do well in #3, the taking care of someone, but do they have the strength of character to do well with #1 and #2? All they can say is haven't been there, haven't done that. So then do our boys have to settle for what they can offer? (I know I'm going to take flack for this, but I'll even go so far as to say a good female SM will do more good than a poor male SM.)

 

I have always distinguished in the back of my mind which boys are going to be strong, adventurous leaders and those that I call Parlor Scouts, i.e. the Eagle that has never camped or started a campfire during this BSA career. Yes, I have had Eagle scouts in my troops that can't start a simple cook fire in the woods. It's sad.

 

Stosh

[AnnLaurelB 10]

Thread bump!! :0)

 

This is a fascinating read! And just to chime in, also as a female, I'm head of one of the families mentioned--I'm single, and raising two kids. My daughter is almost 18, but my "medium" guy (as I was instructed to call him on his birthday, and not "little" guy) has a long way to go, yet.

 

A couple of things:

 

1) Male Role Models: My son sees his dad about every other weekend, but he is involved to that degree, at least. I don't even want to go into whether that's better or worse for the boy; I've heard BOTH arguments. It doesn't matter. That's his dad.

 

But I brought him to Cub Scouts because I wanted him to *regularly* be around strong MALE adult role models. However, due to rampant dysfunction (back-reference "Wild at Heart"), 24 months later my son's Pack has ME as a CM and another single mom as CC, herself with long years in the Scouting trenches with her sons.

 

Is that what I intended? No. I envisioned a MANLY MAN investing himself in my son's life, my son having age-group pals with whom to grow "in wisdom and in stature", and I'd be the supportive mom saying, "Okay! Let's recycle popscicle sticks," and "Wow! What a great job!" and "Yes, I'll bring cake." But... life doesn't work out the way we envision, does it?

 

Does this mean that I *can't* SHOW my son (and other fatherless boys, it turns out) how to impale a nightcrawler on a hook? No; somebody needs to! Even though OMG I hate fish! Would it have occurred to me to take him camping by myself? Oh, hell no. But by golly I marched my womb-toting self down to Wally's and got us a tent.

 

Would I *rather* a daddy-type teach him these things? Yes, I would. I would GLEEFULLY hand over my Den Leader role to a (qualified, thank you) MAN, because I BELIEVE IT WOULD BE BEST. But in the meantime, *I* tell the booger jokes, and *I* tell the mommies that "We CAME OUT HERE to play with sticks! Johnny! Find me one, too!"

 

2) That all being said, please do not mistake me for someone who doesn't know how to be a lady. I'm not trying to BE my son's father; I'm only trying to teach him some of the things his dad ...won't. When I am running a Pack activity, if a daddy offers to carry something for me, I LET HIM. While I *can* do most things that a man can do, there is no shame in letting someone who is stronger than I take a burden from me. I can lead a zoo parade, I can dig a fire pit (and hide it again), I can pitch a tent, I can... you get the idea.

 

But do I *also* say to my Cubbies "A gentleman holds the door for a lady. Why, thank you, sir!", and then sashay through it like a (bad) ballerina? You bet I do. Do I require the Cubbies to let the little sisters get in the food line first? Yes. Can I hit a grounder and slide into 2nd? You bet I can.

 

Women are NOT equal to men (Sorry, Gloria!). I don't want my son thinking that I'm the "same as" a man. Yes, I CAN mow the lawn and change the oil and take out the trash and lead a Cub Scout Pack on a camp out, BUT I would *rather* a big strong man do it, and let me bake my damn cookies.

 

And I'm not ashamed of that.

 

 

[IM_Kathy 32]

I understand all this imprinting stuff that is being talked about, but given my life growing up and my life now it is not always true.

 

Based on my past I should be a drunken abuser who was already involved in my kids life in ways to hurt them... I'm not! And I didn't marry someone that was like my family growing up.

 

Did I have someone in my life like a scout leader that showed me what to do? I had softball coaches, but other than telling me to choke up on the bat when I had 2 strikes I didn't learn much from them.

 

So I taught myself. I taught myself how to cook, clean, wash clothes, take care of my car, mow the grass, use the snowblower... etc...

 

Now that I'm an adult and can look back on it all I'm amazed that I made it out alive... and I look at my kids and know what NOT to do. I don't know how to parent - I only know how NOT to... so I just make sure I don't do those things and try to fill in the pieces.

 

And now I sit back and watch my 2 high schoolers and I think we've done a great job so we just need to keep it up. They both can do anything and everything they need to do to take care of themselves, but also to help others and they both do. I don't even have to direct they to go help a younger scout or student - they're seeing it and stepping up before I even see it.

 

I don't remember where all I was going with this... guess just going to say that while negative things happen to kids it doesn't always mean things are going to turn out terrible. And sometimes I think people having that thought does as much harm to them.

[AnnLaurelB 10]

A friend of mine, who also is a mommy Den leader, adds:

 

"The Cub Scouts has a wonderful tradition of female leaders stepping up for the boys. My grandmother was the Den Mother for her sons (my Dad and my Uncle Robert), and when they became Boy Scouts, my grandfather was a leader. Back then, the adult leader of a cub scout den, was expected to be a Mom.

 

"I'm a lady. Under my khaki Den Leader shirt, I'm wearing a pink shirt, I've got cute earrings on, and maybe I've got my pink loafers on my feet. I taught my boys how to whittle with a pocket knife, how to cook outdoors (and clean up) like a boy scout does it. Can I teach my boys to do the manly things they want to learn? Sure. Would they *rather* learn from a manly man? Yep. But if one isn't handy, I can step up so they can learn.

 

"There was a den in our Pack.. with a woman leader (also a school teacher). she was a girly girl. Their den of mostly single moms and sons, never camped out. They didn't rough it. at all. I often felt bad for those boys who NEVER got to camp. I vowed never to rob my boys of the experience of going camping because *I* would rather sleep at home in my soft bed and put on clean, sweet smelling, girly clothes and paint my nails.

 

"For 3 years, I got dirty and slept in a tent and broke every finger nail, teaching them to tie knots and whittle sticks, and put up tents. It was one of the best times of my life, and I'll never forget it. I'm glad to step daintily aside now as my son continues down the path as a Boy Scout, and watch him and the manly men.

 

(LAURELANN SPEAKING AGAIN-- THIS IS MY FAVORITE PART COMING UP...)

 

"I agree with you wholeheartedly. Boys learn manly things from men. We women, can point them in the right direction, and show them the way to start walking, but they need the example of actual men to show them what it is to be a man. Girl scouts camp too, but I'll tell ya. They camp completely differently. The girls sit around and talk, and read and knit things.

 

"Boys get sticks and poke them in the fire, and crawl under bushes and up trees. The girls notice birds and squirrels and try to draw them or take pictures. The boys are run around and notice footprints or animal poo and put rocks in their pockets. The girls sing silly rhyming songs with lots of hand motions, the boys do skits with awful jokes involving bodily functions and/or action. Women and men are hard wired to be different."

 

(LaurelAnn speaking again) Exactly. And we shouldn't try to tell boys NOT to BE boys!

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Ann Laurel,

 

 

I agree 100%. Among the common questions I get from moms who are considering joining Cub Scouts is an interest in having male role models for their sons.

 

I THINK this is more than an effort to escape being tagged as a volunteer!

 

At present out two Den Leaders and myself as Cubmaster are men, and I'm just adding an Assistant Den Leader who is also a guy. I would be glad to find lady Den Leaders interested in doing the job, but I have a particular interest in recruiting men.

 

Our ladies are Committee Chair, Treasurer and Scout Parent Coordinator.

 

The fact that there are several men who are direct contact leaders encourages more men to do that kind of role I think.

 

Personally I was a Cub Scout dropout after only a few weeks in the program. The Den Mother did her best I'm sure, but it was an arts 'n craft program that had little interest for me.

 

I encourage arts and crafts too ---- but as a supplement to more boy oriented activities. Boys are usually encouraged to decorate every project we make such as Pinewood Derby cars, rockets and such. Many boys value those opportunities and can be quite creative --- but its not the main focus of activities by and large, and boys and families decide for themselves whether they do the craft things and how much time and effort they put into it.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

[AnnLaurelB 10]

Exactly. Women shouldn't feel that they should BECOME men in order to teach a boy stuff. I look at it like this: I'm teaching my son to grow into, what I as a woman, would LIKE a "good" man to be.

 

However, while I *can* do these things, and make it fun for the boys (I believe in banging trees with sticks. And booger jokes), I will not hide my disappointment that there *AREN'T* more responsible men willing to step up and invest in boys' lives. At least around here.

 

That being said, I would like to say "thanks" to the men who DO step up. :0)

 

 

[qwazse 4342]

ALB - There is a distinct difference between my female venturers who were girl scouts and the ones who were not.

 

The non girl-scouts have more of that "pioneering spirit" which maybe is one slice of the "male mystique".

 

The girl-scouts have great organizational abilities and can sing around a campfire until the cows come home.

 

So I think some of that is learned behavior. But, they both want to be respected as ladies. And I think that's where with the co-eds you see the "male mystique" kicking in.

 

A guy who slacks around a camp full of boys might get yelled at or have his stuff yanked out of his tent in the morning. In a co-ed camp, the punishment is much more severe: he'll be shunned. The pressure to "man up and treat the ladies with respect" is a little higher.