Is the real patrol method dead?

[Eagledad]

14 hours ago, Armymutt said:

Interesting turn of events tonight.  Our lone Eagle Scout, who is actually actively showing up and participating, came up to me and the acting SM and presented his thoughts on the troop.  He said that he would dissolve the patrols as they are right now and reform them, integrating Scouts of all ages.  He sees that what we have isn't working because there is no one in the patrol to teach the younger Scouts anything.  As he was talking, I started laughing internally.  I pulled up a text thread where I shared an image from the 1941 Handbook for Scoutmasters that described how to do exactly what he proposed.  I think by our next elections in October, the troop will have a different look and feel.  My plan is to use the older Scouts who are not in PL roles as Troop Guides, responsible for helping the PLs ensure their Scouts are advancing and gaining the Scout skills they need to be able to act independently, within the G2SS.  Hopefully, that will motivate them to start leveraging the technology they have available to hold patrol planning meetings outside of troop meetings and reduce the amount of planning taking place at troop meetings.

Well, this is very cool. Our experience with similar situations is that leadership will struggle for a bit until they get their feet under them, which is OK because we humans learn better in our struggles. But, you might team up with your Eagle and monitor the patrols to see if an ad-hoc training session might help in an area where the patrols are struggling. I found that a 15 minute training moment at the PLC meeting can often be an AH HA moment for PLs. 

After reading your post, I smiled at the memories, and I remember why I love this scouting stuff.

Barry

[fred8033]

15 hours ago, Armymutt said:

...  I think by our next elections in October, the troop will have a different look and feel.  My plan is to use the older Scouts who are not in PL roles as Troop Guides, responsible for helping the PLs ensure their Scouts are advancing and gaining the Scout skills they need to be able to act independently, within the G2SS.  ...

Be careful.  We had a SPL pushed by his dad to emphasize mixed patrols and the need to reorganize all the patrols because that's how the dad experienced it when he was a scout.  The reorganization caused issues with our more senior scouts that were there to be with their friends ... and especially those that owned the identity of their patrol.  A few dropped.  More just hung with their original patrol mates as those were their friends and who shared their scouting time.   That damaged the new patrols.   It took a few years to absorb the patrol change as those older scouts had to age out. 

If I had to do it over, I'd roll the change in slowly over a few years as new scouts join.  Ask for volunteer older scouts who are interested in helping for the new mixed age patrols.  Ask the existing patrols to see who is interested in accepting younger new scouts.  ... Let the scouts organize themselves.  ... If some scouts want to keep their existing patrols, let them keep their patrols.  ... I feel strongly about this as patrols belong to the scouts in those patrols and NOT the troop, NOT the SPL and NOT the adults.  

Also recognize that the next leader a few years from now may have a different opinion and want to change it again ... such as myself.  IMHO, focus on the adventure and getting the scouts outside.  The learning and adventure will come from that.  

I don't know your troop's situation, but be sensitive to the scouts in the troop as it can 

Edited 21 hours ago by fred8033

[Tron]

On 8/19/2025 at 12:00 PM, Eagledad said:

This occurs in units where the youth leaders are not contributing to unit performance. Most of the time the adults are assisting the leadership to the point that they are preventing bad decisions from interfering the activities. 

Ambitious Scouts will rise up into leadership positions in units where the scouts are held accountable for program performance.

Absolutely true. 

[Eagle94-A1]

On 8/18/2025 at 10:00 AM, fred8033 said:

#2 ... Question ... Can patrols still do non-camping activities without adult supervision?  Go to the movies?  Bowl?  Socialize?  Go to a state fair?  I've been out for a few years now, but we always encouraged patrols to have a "patrol" activities and it was never overseen / reviewed by troop leadership.  

Since September/October 2018, ALL (major emphasis) Scouting activities, including patrol day activities, requires 2 registered adults over 21. They tried to make it go into effect in March, but a lot of units with summer camp and HA plans with only 1 adult over 21 and 1 adult over 18 pushed back on it. One of the few times National listened to their volunteers. But I bet all those units wanting refunds was why.

[SSScout]

Patrols?  Neighborhood "gangs", in the good connotation.  Family hierarchy: Big Brothers/Sisters exampling/teaching/modeling to younger bro's, sis's.   

Committee(s) of the whole to accomplish SOMETHING....  a trip to see a museum/hike a trail/go see a movie/earn a Merit Badge together/attend a CAMPOREE/serve for your CO, just the Patrol....  

Patrol Dad, Mom, 

Waaay back when, our phone tree, (remember them?  )  often garnered a bunch of "friends" meeting to see that movie,  visit that museum...  just because we were friends, not ONLY Scouts. But the Scout imprimatur was there.  Our folks knew where we went, what we did, saw. 

Somewhere along the way,  when Scouting became less cool, and the parents decided they (THEY ) couldn't trust us, didn't trust the rest of society (let a 12 year old walk to the store by themselves??),  and because the BSA fell down HARD on protecting the Scouts from the unacknowledged predators out there, in here,,, We needed two deep Registered Scout Trained Adults on any Scout activity.  Protecting not only the younguns' but the adultuns' too,,,,

Can a bunch of friends go for  a hike, go to a ball game (if they have the bucks!😉), without calling it a "SCOUT ACTIVITY" ?  If they tell their parents, and the parents say "have fun, be home by 8 !" , well ... ? 

What is a "PATROL" today?  

[Armymutt]

20 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Be careful.  We had a SPL pushed by his dad to emphasize mixed patrols and the need to reorganize all the patrols because that's how the dad experienced it when he was a scout.  The reorganization caused issues with our more senior scouts that were there to be with their friends ... and especially those that owned the identity of their patrol.  A few dropped.  More just hung with their original patrol mates as those were their friends and who shared their scouting time.   That damaged the new patrols.   It took a few years to absorb the patrol change as those older scouts had to age out. 

If I had to do it over, I'd roll the change in slowly over a few years as new scouts join.  Ask for volunteer older scouts who are interested in helping for the new mixed age patrols.  Ask the existing patrols to see who is interested in accepting younger new scouts.  ... Let the scouts organize themselves.  ... If some scouts want to keep their existing patrols, let them keep their patrols.  ... I feel strongly about this as patrols belong to the scouts in those patrols and NOT the troop, NOT the SPL and NOT the adults.  

Also recognize that the next leader a few years from now may have a different opinion and want to change it again ... such as myself.  IMHO, focus on the adventure and getting the scouts outside.  The learning and adventure will come from that.  

I don't know your troop's situation, but be sensitive to the scouts in the troop as it can 

One of the points he brought up is that none of the patrols have an identity.  These kids are amazingly observant beyond where we were in the early 90s.  I don't think you'd have found a single one of us making that observation.  We have four patrols.  Patrol 1 has one Star who randomly appears, 1 2nd Class, 1 TF, 3 Scout, and 1 no Rank who has been there for about a year.  Patrol 2 has 1 1st Class, 2 TF, and 4 Scouts.  Patrol 3 has a 17 y/o Life who actually wants to help lead,  1 1st Class, 1 2nd Class, 1 TF,  and 3 Scouts.  Patrol 4 has 9 Scouts with Ranks from Life to Eagle, 3 of which actually participate.  The active ones ditch the rest at their table and walk around to help the younger Scouts.  The other four who generally show up, treat the meeting little differently than hanging out at some other place.  Honestly, if those guys quit, there'd be no net loss in leadership or productivity.  None of those four want to go camping or participate in outings, Eagle projects that aren't their own, etc.  

All that is to say that it's clear this troop has been pretty close to Webelos 3+ for a while.  To jump start things, I recommended that our campout this weekend focus on advancement, or at least be planned with an eye to advancement for the 1st Class and below.  One of the requirements for Tenderfoot is to assemble a personal first aid kit.  I identified that as something that needed to be done as part of prep and sensitized the SPL to that point.  The acting SM asked me if we should bring a bunch of first aid supplies out to the campout for the Scouts to use to assemble kits.  To me, that's not the Scouts assembling a first aid kit.  That's the Scouts selecting materials from those provided by the adults.  I want to encourage them to actually open the handbook, read through it, think about what cases they might encounter, make a list, and then procure the items.