Chapter 11 announced - Part 14 - Plan Effective

[scoutldr 732]

51 minutes ago, Ojoman said:

Not once did I ever hear anyone say, ignore it, sweep it under the rug... we need to protect our image.

Well, I was a District Training Chair in the 90s and taught that YP course with the VHS tapes.  We were directed to tell people to NEVER report suspected abuse to the authorities.  ONLY report directly to the SE, who "knew what to do and how to report it."...and NEVER discuss it with anyone else...when you call the Council Office, tell whomever answered the phone to "put me through to the SE for a YP matter" and he would respond immediately.  That never sat right with me, being the spouse of a school nurse who was a "mandatory reporter" and knew the process.  

[1980Scouter 99]

16 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

Well, I was a District Training Chair in the 90s and taught that YP course with the VHS tapes.  We were directed to tell people to NEVER report suspected abuse to the authorities.  ONLY report directly to the SE, who "knew what to do and how to report it."...and NEVER discuss it with anyone else...when you call the Council Office, tell whomever answered the phone to "put me through to the SE for a YP matter" and he would respond immediately.  That never sat right with me, being the spouse of a school nurse who was a "mandatory reporter" and knew the process.  

This is exactly why the BSA got into the trouble they did and had to file bankruptcy.  If they were transparent and addressed the issues openly as they occurred we would have known of issues and been much more on the lookout.

I remember 1988 being the first year in my LC that you had to have two leaders at summer camp. In 1987 it was only the scoutmaster and 30 scouts at summer camp. But 1988 you needed two which we did not have so a camp staffer had to camp with our troop every night.

[fred8033 1593]

21 minutes ago, 1980Scouter said:

If they were transparent and addressed the issues openly as they occurred we would have known of issues and been much more on the lookout.

That was the standard of practice across all organizations I knew.  I'm sure teachers even in the 1990s were told to first talk to the principal before calling authorities to report abuse.

[Jameson76 1485]

51 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

Well, I was a District Training Chair in the 90s and taught that YP course with the VHS tapes.  We were directed to tell people to NEVER report suspected abuse to the authorities.  ONLY report directly to the SE, who "knew what to do and how to report it."...and NEVER discuss it with anyone else...when you call the Council Office, tell whomever answered the phone to "put me through to the SE for a YP matter" and he would respond immediately.  That never sat right with me, being the spouse of a school nurse who was a "mandatory reporter" and knew the process.  

I recall that directive back in the day.  The test would advise who do you call first and SE was the answer, which in my mind was incorrect.  Coming from corporate world we involved law enforcement and corporate HR with any issues that would even remotely appear to violate the law.  As a site GM my role was to handle the issue but also get out of the line of investigation to eliminate any conflict of interest.

First call to the SE seemed to be first step in downplaying the issue.  I never had to deal with a reportable issue, but my first call would have been local police.

On reporting, it is brought up occasionally, but we must remember the times have changed.  When I was a DE back in early 80's, neighboring district had an issue.  None of the parents wanted the police involved, nobody wanted to go on record and testify, accuse, etc.  They just wanted the guy gone.  We were aware of the allegation, removed the volunteer from his position, and advised National, but that was about as far as we could go.  If the council had been the accuser not sure we would have been able to get the investigation moving along.  Without corroboration would have opened up Council and staff to defamation claims.  Not saying the way we handled was the most effective way, it was really the process back 40+ years ago

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

Isn't "corroboration" up to the police investigators? 

And the decision on whether to press charges and pursue the case is on the DA?

Victims or families do not get to decide whether to press charges.  That is up to the DA.  At least in our state.

Not the job of BSA professionals to determine if there is "enough to go on"...

Defamation (with libel and slander) involves making statements which are not true, or can be proven not true.

"Truth is widely accepted as a complete defense to all defamation claims."  https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/defamation

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

When I did research on this topic a long time ago, the rationale for reporting to the SE, and not directly to authorities,  was that different jurisdictions had different definitions of mandatory reporters. Unless you caught them in the act, if you reported an incident, and it was false, you would be held liable and face possible civil litigation.

Different states have different laws, and laws change over time. If you read some of the files, there are notations that victim's parents did not want their child to relive the horror in court. So there was no prosecution.

As for defamation, and proof, if the victims are unwilling to testify, it makes things difficult to prosecute. Also there are times when allegations have been proven false. I know of one such case in BSA. Duke Lacrosse team also comes to mind. And it wasn't  until the mid-late 1990s, that youth volunteers got mandatory reporter protections if memory serves.

[Ojoman 157]

3 hours ago, scoutldr said:

Well, I was a District Training Chair in the 90s and taught that YP course with the VHS tapes.  We were directed to tell people to NEVER report suspected abuse to the authorities.  ONLY report directly to the SE, who "knew what to do and how to report it."...and NEVER discuss it with anyone else...when you call the Council Office, tell whomever answered the phone to "put me through to the SE for a YP matter" and he would respond immediately.  That never sat right with me, being the spouse of a school nurse who was a "mandatory reporter" and knew the 

 A s i recall though the police were in the loop. The SE was supposed to immediately suspend the volunteer  and had to be notified. 

[yknot 1338]

 

7 hours ago, fred8033 said:

That was the standard of practice across all organizations I knew.  I'm sure teachers even in the 1990s were told to first talk to the principal before calling authorities to report abuse.

In about half of states, teachers were mandatory reporters by the mid 1970s, so... no.

[MYCVAStory 687]

10 hours ago, Ojoman said:

Having been 'on the inside'in the 70's, 80's, 90's and more I can tell you that the BSA was doing youth protection training way back. We had 'experts' on VHS tapes telling volunteers and parents the signs, we had 2 deep leadership rules, and we had handouts and even a quiz on the subject for years before any other agency even thought about this type of training. As time passed more steps were added. With the advent of digital cameras and phones that could record that was added to the mix. Sorry to break your balloon but I was a BSA employee and I know how active the BSA was over 4 decades ago in addressing this problem. Predators don't arrive with a scarlet letter on their shirt. They look just like everyone else and most of them don't have a record. The BSA was well ahead of the curve. People are imperfect and can sometimes be overly trusting and it sounds like your case was one such case (of a significant number). In an agency dealing with many millions of kids and millions of adults over the years things happen. Doesn't make it right or dismiss it. You can't make wrongs right but for the councils I worked in and the professionals I worked with, I can say that your words are in error. Regardless of the motive it is well to remember that the BSA was a part of the awakening of all youth agencies to the issue of abuse. You may say too little, too late and as a victim I understand your feelings. The bastard that abused you, I hope he got a long, long sentence. I hope that all the volunteers that I helped train did protect the youth in their charge and that my efforts to hold up the BSA youth protection standards protected kids. The BSA has well over 40 decades of getting the word out. Not once did I ever hear anyone say, ignore it, sweep it under the rug... we need to protect our image. Just had to respond to your point of view with my actual experiences. 

Tell me, what Councils did you work in?  I ask because you make it sound as if there were no issues under your watch.  I'd love to know which Councils didn't have a problem. As well, I wouldn't crow too much about being on the inside during the 70's through 90's.  Claims from that period were at their highest.  Below is the summary of claims.  You might want to read it.  As well, just a friendly reminder to all, like him of not, Michael Johnson stated that HALF of the YP reports he read were youth on youth.  We seem to forget that when we talk about all the safeguards in place.  At any rate, about your statement "Sorry to break your balloon but I was a BSA employee and I know how active the BSA was over 4 decades ago in addressing this problem. "  Well, take a look at the file below.  regardless of how active the BSA was in "addressing" the problem, I have news for you, it failed.  Don't tell me about how the BSA's rates of abuse are no worse than the general public.  Our parents weren't getting assurances from the general public that their kids were safe.  Don't tell me that training existed.  The Scouts own records show that half of registered leaders didn't take YP training.  Don't tell me the YP training is foolproof now.  I sat for it last year and could skip ahead to get my "certificate" without completing all modules.  I could go one.  Active or not, look at the attached claims summary AND remember that with men on average coming forward well into middle-age the numbers for the past three decades might be artificially low.  I won't argue that the BSA didn't try.  It did, and it failed.

BSA Summary of Sexual Abuse Claims.pdf

[T2Eagle 902]

On 12/6/2023 at 10:13 AM, skeptic said:

 

If anyone on these forums might have contact info that might help us in regard to our SE issues, I would appreciate a note.  Thanks.

If you’re not on your council board no one above is going to listen to you.  I’d start by approaching your own COR, and making sure you  get everything from them that you can.  In terms of finding other CORs, it will take leg work and persistence, the website beascout.scouting.org lists every unit and their chartering organization.  Make a list, send a preliminary letter to the org, get on the phone and follow up.  But be warned, you’ll ruffle feathers, and you’ll need to tread lightly or the feathers will ruffle back.

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

13 hours ago, yknot said:

In about half of states, teachers were mandatory reporters by the mid 1970s, so... no.

Serious question, can you show me the source where you got that?

I ask because the research I've done showed that the first mandatory reporter laws were for physicians only, and started in late 1960s. CA was the first state to enact these laws, and gradually they expanded who was a mandatory reporter, and the idea spread to other states. The next group was nurses, then other healthcare providers. Teachers started to be come mandatory reports in the late 1970s/early 1980s (again CA started it if memory serves) and that too expanded to other states over time. Youth group volunteers started in the late 1980s, and some states didn't make youth group volunteers mandatory reporters, with libel and slander protections if the  accusation was false, until the late 1990s/early 2000s.

[yknot 1338]

17 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Serious question, can you show me the source where you got that?

I ask because the research I've done showed that the first mandatory reporter laws were for physicians only, and started in late 1960s. CA was the first state to enact these laws, and gradually they expanded who was a mandatory reporter, and the idea spread to other states. The next group was nurses, then other healthcare providers. Teachers started to be come mandatory reports in the late 1970s/early 1980s (again CA started it if memory serves) and that too expanded to other states over time. Youth group volunteers started in the late 1980s, and some states didn't make youth group volunteers mandatory reporters, with libel and slander protections if the  accusation was false, until the late 1990s/early 2000s.

Here's one retrospective that was written after the Sandusky case:

https://digitalcommons.law.villanova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3262&context=vlr

This recounts teachers being added to the list in many states by the 1970s. To me what's more relevant than the  state laws -- because BSA was and is a national entity -- is that there was growing awareness of these issues and high profile discussions in youth settings from the 1960s forward, unlike what BSA seems to continually claim. As perhaps the nation's leading youth organization, with it's own long history of abuse incidents dating to the 1920s, it's impossible that its awareness would have been so low, and that it couldn't have looked to these sources as a guide on how to formulate a more proactive response of its own. Many voices in youth settings on state and national levels were pushing for mandatory reporting and greater awareness of these issues throughout many of the decades when BSA stayed mute. 

[SiouxRanger 491]

 

On 12/9/2023 at 12:54 PM, SiouxRanger said:

Exactly.

Exhibit from a BSA IV file. Found in my random review of about 40 BSA IV files, and I think mentioned in a deposition somewhere that I read.

Released, I am given to understand, after the usual legal motions, court hearings, and a court order (Oregon case).

Not publicly available without the court's order; BSA contested the files' disclosure. (And I recall, perhaps only 7,000 files-not all of them…? Unlikely the non-disclosed are less egregious.)

Letter to a Council Executive from Paul Ernst, Director of BSA National of Registration.

"We (National BSA) have always asked that all the records in this type of situation be kept in the National Office…"

That is, send National "all that is in your council's file, retain nothing (a sad perversion of the principle of "Leave No (local) Trace.")

Further, unsaid, "Local councils cannot be trusted to keep these matters confidential so National wants ALL the records-the council retaining no copies-so if there is a leak at council level-National can plausibly deny claiming that the Leaker is misinformed, wrong, a disgruntled employee, nor a truth-teller,  recently terminated due to underperformance or insubordination."

As an aside, NONE of the BSA IV (Inelligible volunteers) files I reviewed (clearly a non-statistically valid sample) did I see any document wherein:

-the local council indicated it had advised law enforcement of the matter.

-the local council indicated it had advised the initial reporter of the incident, or anyone else for that matter, to report the incident, WITH THE NOTABLE EXCEPTION of two files where National advised that local "social services" be advised. But never law enforcement. And in one, when "local social services" "deferred" BSA closed its file.

-that National had contacted law enforcement about the incident.

-that National had advised that the council contact law enforcement.

-that National had advised the council to advise someone involved in the incident to contact law enforcement.

The upshot of this is, "Council, collect all the info, send it to National, THEN send your entire file to National, leaving no trace thereof in your local council files, refer to "social services (if the incident is on their radar), and close the file."

Transparency. Hmmm?

All key techniques of deferral and deflection.

"Well, if the initial reporter of the incident, family of the alleged abused, unit leadership don't report it to law enforcement, why should we, National BSA and the council report it to law enforcement???"

Because it happened on your watch. With children.

(And the National BSA staff and "big-wigs," they didn't have children?  And they let other children suffer the abuse?  It would be VERY INTERESTING to know how BSA National senior management protected THEIR children likely having knowledge of the abuse situation in Scouting.

Trustworthy. And when you lose the aura of trustworthiness? Loss of credibility.

So, in the BSA IV files there may be letters/documents wherein National BSA or a local council has referred an incident report to law enforcement.

PLEASE post them on this forum.

Moderators, perhaps a separate thread should be created for those posts, if any.  References to the relevant BSA IV file number and/or copies of the relevant letters should be posted. And, after some passage of time, if there are no such posts, it serves to support my impressions.

P-K4+, maybe P-K4++, Ojoman.

Q.E.D.

 

 

 

[SiouxRanger 491]

20 hours ago, Ojoman said:

 A s i recall though the police were in the loop. The SE was supposed to immediately suspend the volunteer  and had to be notified. 

Haven' read any indication of law enforcement notification of abuse incidents by local councils or NATIONAL BSA in National's Illegible Volunteer files I've read.

Please post all such records from National's Ineligible Volunteer files of which you are aware.

Thanks so much.

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

30 minutes ago, yknot said:

Here's one retrospective that was written after the Sandusky case:

https://digitalcommons.law.villanova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3262&context=vlr

This recounts teachers being added to the list in many states by the 1970s. To me what's more relevant than the  state laws -- because BSA was and is a national entity -- is that there was growing awareness of these issues and high profile discussions in youth settings from the 1960s forward, unlike what BSA seems to continually claim. 

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (yes I am shouting my appreciation at you.)

This topic really gets to me, and I want as much information as possible.   I was fortunate, I was not a victim. However I could have been. My CM was later arrested for CSA. Something didn't seem right with him, and when he moved up to the troop with his son, he became SM, and I was not comfortable and switched. I found out several years later he was in jail. I also had to report/help incidents twice.