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TAHAWK

Civil Protest, Policing, Moving Forward

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Schott, like Henry Ford, publicly praised Hitler and the Nazis and was known for her negative comments about Jews, Japanese, and Blacks as categories, with regular use of the N-word.  Taking up her supposed cause is the wrong battle at a very wrong time.  She is as eligible to have a building or location named for her as Former Exalted Cyclops of the KKK  U.S. Senator Robert C. Byrd.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

Exalted Cyclops

One might think that being tagged with that ridiculous title would be punishment in itself.

Edited by David CO

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1 hour ago, David CO said:

I gave you an up-vote for using an Earth Science term.  Unfortunately,  justice for victims is being pushed under like an oceanic plate in a subduction zone.

Yes. I agree.  With choice of terms,  I wanted to think of something that was so powerful that one couldn’t easily find an exception.  Thanks for the upvote.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, MattR said:

By less sympathy for the perpetrators do you mean harsher sentencing? And what is an example of more sympathy for the victims?

I don't think we need harsher sentencing.  18 year sounds just about right for armed robbery.  The problem isn't with the sentencing.  The problem is with what happens after the sentencing.  This story is a good example.

Sympathy with the victim would require the convicted felon (his lawyers, his advocates, and everyone else who is trying to spring him from jail) to have no contact whatsoever with the victim.  No contact at all.  It is bad enough that the victims have to relive the experience for several years while the trial is going on.  They shouldn't have to go through it again 10 years later when the criminal is seeking a reduction in sentence.

Programs like this not only allow the perpetrator to contact the victims, they encourage and incentivize it.  Programs like the one in this story should be illegal.

Edited by David CO

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7 minutes ago, David CO said:

I don't think we need harsher sentencing.  18 year sounds just about right for armed robbery.  The problem isn't with the sentencing.  The problem is with what happens after the sentencing.  This story is a good example.

Sympathy with the victim would require the convicted felon (his lawyers, his advocates, and everyone else who is trying to spring him from jail) to have no contact whatsoever with the victim.  No contact at all.  It is bad enough that the victims have to relive the experience for several years while the trial is going on.  They shouldn't have to go through it again 10 years later when the criminal is seeking a reduction in sentence.

Programs like this not only allow the perpetrator to contact the victims, they encourage and incentivize it.  Programs like the one in this story should be illegal.

I would like to suggest that more sympathy to the victim needs to start with, as a glaring example, of actually following through with justice in the correct sense of the word.  There have been many cases of investigative police jurisdictions not processing thousands of rape kits, but letting them simply accumulate.  Justice, properly defined, would entail having the processes established followed so that the legal process could move on.  Whatever the reason:  gross negligence, incompetence, depraved indifference, lack of staffing  or even vindictiveness...this is not justice.’   As it is commonly used, ‘no justice’ seems to imply that the justice system is supposed to have a foregone conclusion with the justice system as only a rubber stamp for popular opinion.

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1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Will the BSA rename the William Hornaday Awards? As I understand, his alma mater Iowa State U. removed his plaque recently. 

I sure hope so. He's one of the ones who is hard to defend. 

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7 hours ago, Troop75Eagle said:

I would like to suggest that more sympathy to the victim needs to start with, as a glaring example, of actually following through with justice in the correct sense of the word.  There have been many cases of investigative police jurisdictions not processing thousands of rape kits, but letting them simply accumulate.  Justice, properly defined, would entail having the processes established followed so that the legal process could move on.  Whatever the reason:  gross negligence, incompetence, depraved indifference, lack of staffing  or even vindictiveness...this is not justice.’   As it is commonly used, ‘no justice’ seems to imply that the justice system is supposed to have a foregone conclusion with the justice system as only a rubber stamp for popular opinion.

I again note that the criminal pleaded guilty to nine counts of armed robbery and was sentenced for only five of those felonies and for none of the related felonies, such as nine counts of felonious assault.  So despite his guilty plea, he got off totally on more felonies than those for which he was sentenced.  I have no idea what "popular opinion" expected would be the result.

in Ohio, the present Governor was previously Attorney General, elected in part on a campaign promise to test all the rape kits that had accumulated in the years since rape kits were kept.  That was done.

“Everybody matters or nobody matters.” ― Harry Bosch

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10 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

I again note that the criminal pleaded guilty to nine counts of armed robbery and was sentenced for only five of those felonies and for none of the related felonies, such as nine counts of felonious assault.  So despite his guilty plea, he got off totally on more felonies than those for which he was sentenced.  I have no idea what "popular opinion" expected would be the result.

in Ohio, the present Governor was previously Attorney General, elected in part on a campaign promise to test all the rape kits that had accumulated in the years since rape kits were kept.  That was done.

“Everybody matters or nobody matters.” ― Harry Bosch

I agree with you completely.  The last part of my statement that you highlighted is the real thrust of  what I was saying. Ole bargains are certainly a part of the system.  My point is to more recent cases in this whole social upheaval regarding police and protests.  A grand jury convenes, files no charges against police in Ferguson, Mo.  The grand jury and Us dept of justice clear the officer.  No justice.  How?  The process worked and was even reviewed by feds-extraordinary by itself.  The officer was subject to the processes and laws of the justice system and not charged.  Now the public may be upset with the result, that is fair.  The public, or parts of it, may look at parts of the evidence and disregard other parts to claim ‘no justice’, the public may bitterly disagree with each other on how the presented evidence is to be judged, but that is irrelevant.  The officers were subject to and went through the justice system.  In short, justice was rendered. It’s been this way several times in recent years.

 

Among the howls and screams in recent years about these cases leading up to BLM and Floyd, justice was done.  It was very publicity watched, hyper reviewed and debated.  But it’s become apparent to me that justice seems to mean that the public outcry over police cases isn’t really about an interest in justice as its properly meant.  It’s more about taking a video and expecting an outcome to satisfy impressions and personal judgements.  The idea of a trial is almost  an inconvenience to the public that seems to have no interest in the rule of law as a consistent barrier to anarchy and chaos.  The reason the process is set up is to have cooler heads review the evidence in full at the grand jury level, if applicable...move to trial.  But the idea that the grand jury or trial jury could decide anything other than what is desired and expected is an anathema to segments of society. At a minimum, they should simply stop abusing the word as a substitute for retribution through summary justice.
 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/3/2020 at 1:46 PM, David CO said:

The real story is crime rates are high.  We should have more sympathy for the victims of crime, and less for the perpetrators.

Crime victims get plenty of sympathy, but they aren't entitled to revenge, which is usually where ideas of this nature tend to head.  But the numbers show that one way or the other, something is drastically wrong with the way our legal system works.

The facts show that the US incarcerates more people per capita than any other country in the world.  And not just by a little bit, it's an astonishing difference.  The only other country that comes close is Russia and our incarceration rate is 20% higher than theirs.  If you only look at Western countries, the next highest is Poland and we are 213% higher than them.  Of countries we actually tend to think of ourselves as being similar to, the closest is the UK and our rate is 398% higher than them.

So given that data, we have to conclude one of a few things must be true.

  1. Something about the US leads to criminality at drastically higher rates than everywhere else in the world;
  2. The US is just amazingly better at arresting and convicting criminals than everyone else in the world;
  3. The US puts more people in jail for longer periods of time than everyone else in the world.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/incarceration-rates-by-country

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html

On 7/3/2020 at 5:53 PM, David CO said:

I don't think we need harsher sentencing.  18 year sounds just about right for armed robbery.  The problem isn't with the sentencing.  The problem is with what happens after the sentencing.  This story is a good example.

Sympathy with the victim would require the convicted felon (his lawyers, his advocates, and everyone else who is trying to spring him from jail) to have no contact whatsoever with the victim.  No contact at all.  It is bad enough that the victims have to relive the experience for several years while the trial is going on.  They shouldn't have to go through it again 10 years later when the criminal is seeking a reduction in sentence.

Programs like this not only allow the perpetrator to contact the victims, they encourage and incentivize it.  Programs like the one in this story should be illegal.

This attitude doesn't seem very Christian.  Not much in the way of mercy or forgiveness.  18 years in prison for stealing a wallet while holding a stick even though no violence was used?

It sounds like you'd be happier in a more Muslim country.  Your ideals are right in line with some of the more extremist Islamic views on punishment.

Edited by elitts
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3 hours ago, elitts said:

This attitude doesn't seem very Christian.  Not much in the way of mercy or forgiveness.  18 years in prison for stealing a wallet while holding a stick even though no violence was used?

It sounds like you'd be happier in a more Muslim country.  Your ideals are right in line with some of the more extremist Islamic views on punishment.

I do wish I could have a civil conversation with liberals without having them question my religious faith.  My views are right in line with my religion.  I have no need to convert to any other religion.

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2 hours ago, elitts said:

Crime victims get plenty of sympathy, but they aren't entitled to revenge, which is usually where ideas of this nature tend to head.  But the numbers show that one way or the other, something is drastically wrong with the way our legal system works.

The facts show that the US incarcerates more people per capita than any other country in the world.  And not just by a little bit, it's an astonishing difference.  The only other country that comes close is Russia and our incarceration rate is 20% higher than theirs.  If you only look at Western countries, the next highest is Poland and we are 213% higher than them.  Of countries we actually tend to think of ourselves as being similar to, the closest is the UK and our rate is 398% higher than them.

So given that data, we have to conclude one of a few things must be true.

  1. Something about the US leads to criminality at drastically higher rates than everywhere else in the world;
  2. The US is just amazingly better at arresting and convicting criminals than everyone else in the world;
  3. The US puts more people in jail for longer periods of time than everyone else in the world.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/incarceration-rates-by-country

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html

This attitude doesn't seem very Christian.  Not much in the way of mercy or forgiveness.  18 years in prison for stealing a wallet while holding a stick even though no violence was used?

It sounds like you'd be happier in a more Muslim country.  Your ideals are right in line with some of the more extremist Islamic views on punishment.

There is an undeniable desire for retribution over rehabilitation and reintegration in this country.  The idea of correcting bad behavior and having people pay their debt and move in really doesn’t work so well.  Scouts tended (Past tense deliberate ) to try to reinforce ethical, productive and socially cohesive attitudes and behaviors.  I experienced this and believe in it as a traditional tool for achieving this goal.  I never witnessed or heard of the socio-political agendas being forced as they are today.  
 

Scouts does not hold a monopoly on these sorts of tools and never has.  If so, that is a sad state of affairs and makes an appalling statement about the drive, self reliance, introspection and creativity of most of the US population that couldn’t find other alternatives. 
 

The religious institutions that choose affiliate with scouts bear a great deal of elective responsibility in moral and ethical guidance as do the parents who raise their children.  Scouts has been an outlet to positively channel those common objectives under a framework that reflects patriotism and growth while having a primary focus in common activities.

scouts, however, has not been in the business of studying crime and punishment outside the Citizenship merit badges (at least that’s my experience).  Scouts is merely a format that one chooses to join that has traditions, activities and objectives of a particular nature.  Issues of retribution, proportionality, Fairness in application of law and reconstructing society have not been a part of that.  
 

leadership, personal responsibility, development within the context of stated beliefs, community involvement and a patriotic mindset definitely have been at the heart of its mission.  The scouts has been a unique tool that has thrived because of those specific attributes.  Teaching kids about crime and punishment and extensive social problems is quickly rendering a venerable institution into nothing but a great culture torn to shreds with no identity.  It will be a rump dead idea that no one will agree upon and drive people away.  It will be forcibly remade into a club that appeals to a few that will claim victory but it will be a pyrrhic one.  Such are the changes of time,  great ideas and practices that have an overwhelmingly positive impact are swept away by inferiority complexes, envy and a refusal to agree to abide by the rules of an established system.  This is one reason resentment and anger exist.  If each person  can’t change the rules of the system then tear it apart rather than establish a new one.  Social destruction seems the desire rather than innovation. 


 

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7 minutes ago, Troop75Eagle said:

... scouts, however, has not been in the business of studying crime and punishment outside the Citizenship merit badges (at least that’s my experience).    ...

You brought back fond memories of a town hike that included the troop visiting at the Sheriff's office and a tour of county lock-up which included saying hello to the prisoners, one of whom gave us the "Kids, stay in school," speech. That wasn't a requirement for any merit badge. The SM explained that it's just what we do. At the time, I took "we" to mean scouts. But, I think he meant staunch Presbyterians, because the youth group also paid visits to the jail and the juvenile detention center.

It's true about our nation's record incarceration rates and long sentencing. But, we also all carry guns and knives. Let one of us out too soon, and bad things happen that make the papers.

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85% of students have never gotten a detention or referral.  All of the trouble comes from just 15% of the students.  A few students will accumulate over 100 referrals.

I had a conversation about this with a class of public school students.  I was on the school board.  We showed them the statistics we had on student behavior, and explained the school policy and the consequences for repeated bad behavior.  The badly behaved kids were upset that (under our policy) students could be suspended/expelled after just 15 referrals.  The well behaved students were shocked that anyone could could behave so badly that they would accumulate 15 referrals.  It is all a matter of perspective.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

The problem of recidivism - criminals reoffending, has been noted for over 150 years in the U.S.  Ex-President Hays led an Ohio  commission looking for a solution - the path to "reform"  - in the 1870s.  The commission concluded that inmates should be discharged with a trade - giving them a stake in civil society.  In Ohio, this led to the foundation and expansion of Ohio Prison Industries (Now Ohio Penal Industries).  At one time, this organization taught carpentry, including finish -carpentry and furniture-making, barbering, electrical work, motor vehicle repair, metal working, machining, and other skilled trades.  Over the decades, the unions succeeded in having many of the programs eliminated on the grounds that they competed with "free labor."   The motor vehicle repair program was restarted s few years ago.    The Ohio authorities have masses of data, gathered over many decades, that support the conclusion that those who graduate from the training programs are much less likely to reoffend.

That study also concluded, that punishment rarely deters future offense, except of course for capital punishment when speaking of the executed.

Mercy is also owed to the public who are victims and potential victims of offenders.    Violent crime is up 100% or more in many of our "woke" cities.

The current social warriors expressly wish to eliminate police, courts, current criminal law, and places of incarceration.   The old LA County main jail, housing those awaiting trail for the most violent crimes - murder, violent rape, battery causing severe bodily harm (e.g,. wide beating), child molestation - is ordered closed by the County Commission with no provision for housing the jailed prisoners elsewhere - truly "transformation."   Will this not encourage "self-help" - the system in Britain before William forcibly introduced he concept of "crime" as being an offense against the state post 1066?

Edited by TAHAWK
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13 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

The problem of recidivism - criminals reoffending, has been noted for over 150 years in the U.S.  Ex-President Hays led an Ohio  commission looking for a solution - the path to "reform"  - in the 1870s.  The commission concluded that inmates should be discharged with a trade - giving them a stake in civil society.  In Ohio, this led to the foundation and expansion of Ohio Prison Industries (Now Ohio Penal Industries).  At one time, this organization taught carpentry, including finish -carpentry and furniture-making, barbering, electrical work, motor vehicle repair, metal working, machining, and other skilled trades.  Over the decades, the unions succeeded in having many of the programs eliminated on the grounds that they competed with "free labor."   The motor vehicle repair program was restarted s few years ago.    The Ohio authorities have masses of data, gathered over many decades, that support the conclusion that those who graduate from the training programs are much less likely to reoffend.

That study also concluded, that punishment rarely deters future offense, except of course for capital punishment when speaking of the executed.

Mercy is also owed to the public who are victims and potential victims of offenders.    Violent crime is up 100% or more in many of our "woke" cities.

The current social warriors expressly wish to eliminate police, courts, current criminal law, and places of incarceration.   The old LA County main jail, housing those awaiting trail for the most violent crimes - murder, violent rape, battery causing severe bodily harm (e.g,. wide beating), child molestation - is ordered closed by the County Commission with no provision for housing the jailed prisoners elsewhere - truly "transformation."   Will this not encourage "self-help" - the system in Britain before William forcibly introduced he concept of "crime" as being an offense against the state post 1066?

In TN we had a penal farm where prisoners actually grew food and worked.  The unions put a stop to this as you relate.  Unfair competition of state v private sector.  There are some changes where non violent offenders learn about horses and work with them.  There are other programs that help non violent women reunite with family and get help and aid to get meaningful work.  More often it would seem that the attitude is, ‘well jimmy, you’re free now, hope you do well.’ And that’s it.

i would say there is definitely a public interest in reintegrating Non violent people who’ve done time. Marketable Skills and trades.  Social acceptance and trust is a different issue altogether so having the ability to be a sole proprietor might be a way forward.? Violent offenders and sex offenders are a different issue.  I have no useful ideas on that considering the bar for trust would be very high when competing against those without the baggage.  These sorts of social issues would serve as cautionary tales against misbehavior...good ones at that.  My troop went to police depot to learn what PD did, had police come as part of anti-drug lecture and so forth.  That was in the 80’s. These put teeth in the “physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight” part of the oath.  Equipping the scouts with universal tools for citizenship, ethical and moral behavior as protective measures is a good thing.  The parents and their respective belief systems fill in the gaps.  But it seems that is no longer allowed.  Dictates and fiats from social forces through national has supplanted that entirely.  

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