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1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

Well, okay then, as they say in the northern midwest. I have no pithy retort to either of those sentences.

While I do enjoy an occasional pithy retort, it is not required.  We can just have a conversation.  You asked a question and I answered it truthfully.  

 

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What is legally right is not always morally right.

I would encourage everyone to not ask @ThenNow to rehash particular circumstances. They can be found by patiently browsing his posts. From what I read, they were far from legal. His claim would have b

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1 hour ago, David CO said:

While I do enjoy an occasional pithy retort, it is not required.  We can just have a conversation.  You asked a question and I answered it truthfully.  

Duly noted. 

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5 hours ago, ThenNow said:

I am in the midst of a very elementary national survey to see what people know about the case, their thoughts, on it, whether they think the BSA should continue, if their kids are allowed to be in activities with other adults while they are not with them and several other things. I will report, if anyone would like to know the results. To your point, I was pretty surprised how many people said things like, "I know little or nothing...some leaders took advantage of some boys years ago...they had to file bankruptcy because the LDS church left" and etc. Also, 65% or so know someone who was sexually abused as a child. Not surprised, but notable.

 

This is why I posted the chart and why I have been baffled at the ho-hum approach being taken by the LCs and COs, not to mention the BSA. They and the Ad Hoc Committee (I assume) had the data for months via a settlement demand from the TCC. I guess they weren't in a sharing mood. "Hello? Anyone serious about this?" [insert head shake and befuddled look]

I think...  take it for what you will. :)  

1) National and LCs pushed the narrative so hard that this was a problem that would ONLY affect National because LCs are their own thing.  They can't turn around now and say... Well, uhhh, that wasnt completely accurate.  Maybe taking such a hard stance on that position wasn't a good idea.  It seems like more and more that is up to the Judge and not how BSA wants it to be.

2) National and LCs put themselves in a stupid position with above and even now continue to blow sunshine where the sun doesnt typically shine.  The continue pushing the narrative and/or complete silence on the matter seems kinda shady.  But on the other hand, if they do open up at this point they will kill any hopes of future recruitment.

3) COs have no clue what is happening and what maybe coming their way.  I think they are being kept in the dark as much as the rest of us.

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10 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Was it truly the assumption that these were minor "offenses" and random, though malicious acts of "touching," and etc.?

 

10 hours ago, David CO said:

Yes.  At first, back in the 80's, I thought it was just a witch hunt.  I was convinced that the idiots at national invented all this nonsense just to give them a ready excuse to target good scouters.  

I also felt that it was mostly driven by spineless ninnies who simply did not understand the realities of working with boys in a scouting environment.

@David CO ... Back in the 1980s, 1990s or even early 2000s, I can understand that thought process.  I'll say it again, BSA is not unique here.   And in may ways BSA was further ahead than other organizations.

We've now been in 20 years of mandatory reporting and a more mature understanding of the problem.  But we still see cases happen on massive scales.  

Society does not protect children well and on the other hand we have helicopter parents.  It's the post-2010 cases that do astound me.  Especially in BSA with the strong YPT focus and rules.  I'm extremely surprised in schools.  I'm much less surprised in sports though as they have not generally had their spotlight in national news yet.  

I just don't feel this should be an end for BSA.  Perhaps, it is right BSA transforms into a family oriented program.  Teaching values in an outdoor setting with family members often there with their scouts.  Whole families now are disconnected and not comfortable in the outdoors.  I could see this being a good thing.

 

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4 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I just don't feel this should be an end for BSA.  Perhaps, it is right BSA transforms into a family oriented program.  Teaching values in an outdoor setting with family members often there with their scouts.  Whole families now are disconnected and not comfortable in the outdoors.  I could see this being a good thing.

I've had a heightened awareness of all things BSA this past year. I try to note and log whatever I hear or read. I've found, purely anecdotally, that many of the most engaged and enthusiastic Scouting advocates are such families. One or both parents are involved with one or more of their children in their Scouting life. Often, all the kids are on a Scouting track. The LDS families I've known had this approach - it was "family" Scouting.

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4 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I just don't feel this should be an end for BSA.  Perhaps, it is right BSA transforms into a family oriented program.  Teaching values in an outdoor setting with family members often there with their scouts.  Whole families now are disconnected and not comfortable in the outdoors.  I could see this being a good thing.

 

That makes Boy Scouting very much like Cub Scouting. I can't speak for other units, but my Troop has always encouraged parents to come along on outings if they want. Most often they choose not to attend, because camping outdoors all weekend either doesn't fit their schedule or isn't their thing. 

4 hours ago, fred8033 said:

 

That report doesn't surprise me. Getting school districts to create and follow policies is just as challenging as getting Scout Troops and Councils to follow YPT, and the BSA has the advantage of a "centralized" command. Teachers and administrators fail to report, or sometimes administrators "pass the trash" to another district, just like the Catholic Church was doing by reassigning Priests before the Priest scandal broke. Abuse in schools is a sad familiar story to abuse in other settings. 

When I was in High School 2009-2012, the procedures there were totally inadequate. I had significant time alone with teachers in their classrooms during or after school, that could have been an opportunity for abuse if those teachers were predatory. As a teenager, I wanted that time with my teachers to learn, get additional instruction. It's a shame that type of situation might go away, but clearly some teachers take advantage of that access to young people. 

The part of the report that saddens me is that it highlights the heart of the problem. A good teacher, coach or Scout leader should get to know their youth well. They should care about the life and individual success of each of the youth they work with. Unfortunately that type of close relationship is also used by predators. I suppose like the BSA is trying to do, there is going to be a future where school employees are not allowed to be alone with their students. I'm surprised it's not already the rule in schools already. 

3 hours ago, David CO said:

I don't believe it.  

 

I do. Literally every day there is a new article about teacher misconduct somewhere. With so many teachers, it's inevitable. Just like the Church or Scouting, predators tend to have multiple victims. When a predator is caught, often the rest of their child victims don't come out to accuse them, so the full scope of the abuse isn't revealed. The study is covering sexual misconduct. That could be anything from inappropriate comments, unwanted touching, or full on assault. It may be illegal or legal but unethical behavior. Think about how many different staff members, administrators, and volunteers a student interacts with in their typical k-12 career. 

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2 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

... a future where school employees are not allowed to be alone with their students. I'm surprised it's not already the rule in schools already. 

... The study is covering sexual misconduct. That could be anything from inappropriate comments, unwanted touching, or full on assault. It may be illegal or legal but unethical behavior. Think about how many different staff members, administrators, and volunteers a student interacts with in their typical k-12 career. 

Teachers not allowed to be alone with students ... I'm absolutely hugely surprised too.  Back in the 1980s in the music practice rooms we used, there were no windows.  You were in there behind a closed door with a teacher.  

Even today, there are many hidden nooks in most middle and high schools.  Teachers can easily be alone with students.  In teachers defense, I've seen multiple times where a student had a crush on a teacher and sought out individual time.  ... I'm just surprised there are not more strict rules as much to protect the teacher as to protect the student.

What surprises me, is that we are far into the realm of "mandatory reporters" for teachers and coaches.  Scout leaders have probably fell into the last expansion of mandatory reporters.  

 

I really think people get lost in the numbers and how big the numbers are in any huge organization.  You want to fix this, fix it in society as a whole.

 

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1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

You want to fix this, fix it in society as a whole.

I would not want to live in an Orwellian society that promises safety in exchange for my freedom.

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1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Teachers not allowed to be alone with students ... I'm absolutely hugely surprised too.  Back in the 1980s in the music practice rooms we used, there were no windows.  You were in there behind a closed door with a teacher.  

Even today, there are many hidden nooks in most middle and high schools.  Teachers can easily be alone with students.  In teachers defense, I've seen multiple times where a student had a crush on a teacher and sought out individual time.  ... I'm just surprised there are not more strict rules as much to protect the teacher as to protect the student.

I think this depends on where you are. I started going into the local districts in the early 2000s and teachers were rarely alone with kids by that point. There was almost always a parent or an aide in the classroom. Open door policies. One on one was often done at desks in hallways. After Sandy Hook, a lot of schools also put in surveillance cameras. School busses have cameras. School grounds have exterior cameras. You might think teachers are alone with kids -- and in some cases they are -- but they are rarely unobserved.  

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2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Teachers not allowed to be alone with students

True story.  I had a student, about 10 years ago, whose parent appealed the kid's failing grade in my class.  He stated that they had a "family rule" against having their kids come in for extra help from teachers.  Said it was for safety purposes.  

He felt that the school should not "punish" his kid for abiding by this family rule.  Since the student might have improved his grade had he been able to get some extra help, the father asked that his son be given a passing grade.  He pointed out the fact that other students in his son's class, who did come in for extra help, had improved their grades.

He won.  His kid was given a "C".

 

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In 1965 at Ohio Sate, the History Department had a rule that you never met with a student aalone in your office without a rubber door stop wedging the door open.  We were issued red rubber door stops.

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13 hours ago, fred8033 said:

 

I just don't feel this should be an end for BSA.  Perhaps, it is right BSA transforms into a family oriented program.  Teaching values in an outdoor setting with family members often there with their scouts.  Whole families now are disconnected and not comfortable in the outdoors.  I could see this being a good thing.

 

I don't see the point.  If this is the end for BSA, just let it end.  Don't try to change it into something it's not intended to be.  Don't turn it into a family camping organization.  We already have family friendly campgrounds.  

I know the execs will disagree.  To them, scouting is a meal ticket.  They don't want the gravy train to stop rolling regardless of how much they have to adulterate the program to keep it going.  

 

 

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