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Eagle Board of Review - Ethics

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In my Council, EBOR are convened by the Troop Committee, and a rep from the District Advancement committee serves as a member, and signs the Eagle App on behalf of the Council.  We are there to ensure the EBOR is conducted properly and no inappropriate questions or "retesting" takes place.  In the many I have served on, there have been no issues, except for the one time that it was disclosed that the candidate was a new father and "living in sin" with the baby mama.  The Troop Committee was more upset that the SM had blindsided them ("I didn't think it was relevant").  The vote was not unanimous, so I had to recess the EBOR and the scout appealed to Council where it was rubber-stamped.

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In the many I have served on, there have been no issues, except for the one time that it was disclosed that the candidate was a new father and "living in sin" with the baby mama. 

Good grief!  It's Eagle rank in Boy Scouts.  He's not applying to be a priest.

it's amazing how many Christians forget that we're all sinners and Jesus intentionally associated with people society cast out as sinners.

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1 hour ago, 69RoadRunner said:

 

Good grief!  It's Eagle rank in Boy Scouts.  He's not applying to be a priest.

it's amazing how many Christians forget that we're all sinners and Jesus intentionally associated with people society cast out as sinners.

Well, I've been there, so I understand the conflict of integrity. Saying that, I can't help but feel your comment is just as judgmental. 

Barry

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31 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Well, I've been there, so I understand the conflict of integrity. Saying that, I can't help but feel your comment is just as judgmental. 

Barry

My comment was critical of people who are being judgmental by applying their religious standards to an Eagle BoR. This is BSA, not a church. 

I am also criticizing those who decide which sins are intolerable and which are not. 

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Um, it was a church.  This troop is sponsored by a United Methodist Church, so I think they are free to expect moral behavior from the youth in their program.  They didn't condemn him to Hell...they just imposed their interpretation of "morally straight" expected of an Eagle Scout.  Suffice it to say, that as the District Rep, I did not vote or offer an opinion.  When it became clear that the Board would not approve, I called the District Advancement Chair for guidance.

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41 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

My comment was critical of people who are being judgmental by applying their religious standards to an Eagle BoR. This is BSA, not a church. 

I am also criticizing those who decide which sins are intolerable and which are not. 

Yes, I understand. However, your comments are just as judgmental and intolerable. Review the Oath and Law. God is very much part of the values of the program. Religious principles are core of how many people live their day and judge the behavior of others in their community. People just have different standards of judgment. The BSA has a broad spectrum of how adults apply judgement on their scouts. Your opinion of religious people's judgments is obviously not, well not like many of ours.  But remember, adults IN ALL TROOPS are the sources of the values they use to judge  their scouts in living the Oath and Law. I am quite sure there are behaviors you don't tolerate from your scouts that aren't a problem for me.  

Barry

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2 hours ago, scoutldr said:

they just imposed their interpretation of "morally straight" expected of an Eagle Scout.

But then would they also ask other Eagle candidates about their pre-marital sexual relationships? Seems like this was only an issue because it was so obviously public. If it had been a private sin of the same nature (on-going physical relationship with another person), would they have even asked or much cared? Does the SM discuss pre-marital activity with all their scouts as part of their SMC?

I don't have an issue with it as long as it is consistently applied. One might even suggest that the adult leaders follow the same example.

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It's a big country.

The guy who moves in as dad-in-residence without rushing through a ceremony ...

In some parts, he's a hero.

In other parts, he's a fool. (Or, maybe she is.)

It's not so much the CO's affiliation that matters, but the scout's. If the scout discussed his options with his religious leaders and his and her family, and they all agreed that this was the best course of action, then props to the scout. If the scout said that he was disregarding his religion and what the families have asked, then maybe he's not Eagle material.

Even then, this is a "time will tell" situation. But, because of that ageist 18-year-old deadline, folks are short-changed of the time they need for a good decision. The better move might have been to say, "Spend a couple years to sort out the right thing to do in this situation, then come back for your BoR. If you need some support, we have an SM who has helped other guys navigate these choppy waters, and could use some help at meetings."

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The committee members would have been none the wiser had it not been revealed in a Reference Letter submitted by his sister, praising him for being such a good Dad.  Like I said, I think they were more upset at being "blindsided" by the SM who thought it wasn't worth mentioning.

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3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Yes, I understand. However, your comments are just as judgmental and intolerable. Review the Oath and Law. God is very much part of the values of the program. Religious principles are core of how many people live their day and judge the behavior of others in their community. People just have different standards of judgment. The BSA has a broad spectrum of how adults apply judgement on their scouts. Your opinion of religious people's judgments is obviously not, well not like many of ours.  But remember, adults IN ALL TROOPS are the sources of the values they use to judge  their scouts in living the Oath and Law. I am quite sure there are behaviors you don't tolerate from your scouts that aren't a problem for me.  

Barry

Not tolerating in that I tell the scout the behavior is wrong and expect a change is not the same as permanently denying the rank of Eagle.

I don't condone the actions.  They are wrong.  The action was done, now are you going to say your religious views prevent the scout from earning Eagle?

I'm quite certain if we go through the oath and law, at some point, every Eagle had at least 1 violation.  Every adult passing judgment, too.

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3 hours ago, scoutldr said:

The committee members would have been none the wiser had it not been revealed in a Reference Letter submitted by his sister, praising him for being such a good Dad.  Like I said, I think they were more upset at being "blindsided" by the SM who thought it wasn't worth mentioning.

I think I remember you telling us about this one.

This might be just me after dealing with too many adults who disrespect boys on account of their leaders, but ...

If the board is upset at an SM, then they should take it out on the SM. They can apologize to the scout, have him leave the room, then tell the SM that they will have a hard time believing future Eagle applications from his troop if he white-washes his recommendation of them. Then they bring the scout back in, admit that they weren't prepared to discuss this very important aspect of his character with him, and ask his permission to reconvene in a week or two.

Be plainspoken. Admit that this is the first time you all recall a BoR dealing with something like this, so it's better to have them think seriously, get advise from other senior scouters, and come back prepared to have a constructive review.

I have no idea how much clout a district rep. has to suspend an EBoR on the spot. But this is might be the right time to do so.

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35 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

Not tolerating in that I tell the scout the behavior is wrong and expect a change is not the same as permanently denying the rank of Eagle.

So, you have no judgement of behavior that would deny an Eagle, pushing drugs, bullying, threatening physical harm with a weapon, or just lying about passing requirements to get the Eagle. 

38 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

I don't condone the actions.  They are wrong.  The action was done, now are you going to say your religious views prevent the scout from earning Eagle?

Ah, it keeps coming back to religion as if religion is a disqualification for judging behavior. Do you really believe there isn't a single non-religious who believes premarital sex is very wrong?

You've set yourself up for hypocrisy because everyone's conscious comes from somewhere, one day you will have to justify your yours.  They will ask, "what makes you so high and mighty judging the behavior of someone else's son?"

Discounting ones judgment on the single bases of religion borders on bigotry. If you can't express an opinion without denigrating others for their opinion, then you're no better than your derogatory words. The religious person judges behavior equally among all people. Your opinion comes off personal and prejudice. 

Next time, just simply say you disagree with how they handled the situation. 

Barry

 

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3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Next time, just simply say you disagree with how they handled the situation. 

Barry

 

I'll use my own words, thank you very much.  And I stand by everything I said. You disagree.  That's fine, but I'm not going to follow your orders.

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I thought it useful to go back to the Guide to Advancement.

Quote

From 8.0.1.2 What Should Be Discussed

A Scout may be asked where he learned his skills and who taught him, and what he gained from fulfilling selected requirements. The answers will reveal what he did for his rank. It can be determined, then, if this was what he was supposed to do. Discussion of how he has lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law in his home, unit, school, and community should be included. We must remember, however, that though we have high expectations for our members, as for ourselves, we do not insist on perfection. A positive attitude is most important, and that a young man accepts Scouting’s ideals and sets and meets good standards in his life.

 

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I said it in the other thread about this and I'll say it again here: If pre-marital sex is a disqualifier for Eagle Scout, let me know where to hand in my medal.

Would it be fair to deny one scout their rank because he got his girlfriend pregnant while approving another scout (like me) who just got lucky that his girlfriend didn't get pregnant despite that scout being incredibly stupid and not being careful?

I applaud that scout who maybe became a father way too young but did the right thing and stood by his new family anyway.

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