How does your district handle Eagle references?

[robert12]

The Guide to Advancement states:

 

Council advancement committee members—or others designated—have the responsibility to secure recommendations from the references appearing under requirement 2 on the Eagle Scout Rank Application. This may be done by letter, form, or phone call. For reasons of privacy and confidentiality, electronic submissions are discouraged. It is acceptable to send or deliver to the references an addressed envelope with instructions, and perhaps a form to complete. The Scout may assist with this, but that is the limit of his participation. He is not to be responsible for follow-through or any other aspect of the process.

 

 

It is up to the council’s designated representatives to collect the responses. If after a reasonably diligent effort no response can be obtained from any references, the board of review must go on without them. It must not be postponed or denied for this reason, and the Scout shall not be asked to submit additional references or to provide replacements.

 

Completed reference responses of any kind are the property of the council and are confidential, and only review-board members and those officials with a specific need may see them. The responses are not to be viewed by or returned to the Scout. Doing so could discourage the submission of negative information. For the same reason, those providing references do not have the option of giving the reference directly to the Scout and shall not be given the option of waiving confidentiality. Once a review has been held, or an appeal process conducted, responses shall be returned to the council, where they will be destroyed after the Eagle Scout credentials are released or the appeal is concluded.

 

In our district the Scout is given a letter to be given to the reference which is to be completed and returned to the district advancement chair.  If a letter is not returned there is no follow up with the reference.  

 

Just curious how other districts do it.

 

 

[Stosh]

If a form letter of reference is not returned by the SM the process is halted until one is secured.

[NJCubScouter]

In our district the Scout gives a letter to reference-writers with instructions where to mail the letter - which is the Scoutmaster. Ideally, the SM gets the letter in enough time to give it to one of the committee members who will be participating in the EBOR. Or if the SM will attend himself (not as an EBOR member), he brings the letters with him. Sometimes the letters somehow end up in the possession of the Scout who gives them to a committee member. Nobody asks too many questions about it. I suppose if there was some evidence of foul play with the letters, there might be a problem, but there never has been.

 

The letters are destroyed after the EBOR.

Edited August 18, 2015 by NJCubScouter

[Gone]

Our district accepts general references in one's own style. As soon as our scouts turn Life we begin working with them to identify adults who would 1) be willing to write a good letter of reference and 2) would be willing to write a GOOD letter of reference. We work on this list and fine tune it during their Life rank so these are ready when the scout is prepared to sit for his ESMC.

[qwazse]

The scout requests letters. No particular form is specified. Letters go to the SM or to the scout who collects them and turns them in to the SM.

 

As a personal policy, I only write open recommendations -- be it for jobs, scholarships, or bling. So the scout may read and review it if he wishes.

 

If somebody wants a closed recommendation, they can call me personally over a land line, and record my response.

[fred johnson]

We are similar to the original poster and the GAC.  Scout is held account for providing the references on the rank application sheet.  The council has a specific form for each type of reference, but the references can use their own form if they desire.  Council has designated the eagle candidate scout to deliver the reference sheet forms to their references.  Forms are returned via mailed to the scoutmaster.  The scoutmaster stores the references letters until the rank application is to be submitted.  Forms are never to be seen by the scout, as written in the GTA.  

 

When the rank application is ready for submittal, the scoutmaster drives (or mails) the paperwork to the scout office and hands it to the registrar.  The paperwork includes the Eagle rank application, life statement, list of positions, eagle project workbook, additional eagle project archive items that are interesting to demonstrating planning, development and leadership .... AND ... the scoutmaster attaches the reference letters.  The council registrar processes the whole stack as one submission.  The stack is checked and scanned into a PDF file to be shared in advanced with those that will be sitting on the scout's EBOR.  In addition, the paper stack will be made available to the board the evening of the EBOR.

 

The council strongly prefers to get as many references back as possible.  Missing references are not a show stopper.  There is no process to chase down the missing.  The BSA formal scout requirement is to provide the name and contact info for the references.  There is no BSA scout requirement to receive the references.

 

After the EBOR, the reference letters are destroyed by the chair of the EBOR.

Edited August 18, 2015 by fred johnson

[andysmom]

In our council the troop committee secures the reference and summarizes them on a form provided by council. The summary form is signed by the committee chair and goes to council with the application, proposal, life statement, etc. I am the one who handles it in our troop, I have a form letter that I email out. I make 3 attempts to acquire a reference by email or phone call.

I provide the letters and summary to the members of the board of review and they are destroyed by myself after the board.

Edited August 19, 2015 by andysmom

[Gone]

The scout requests letters. No particular form is specified. Letters go to the SM or to the scout who collects them and turns them in to the SM.

Odd they let the scout collect them given BSA's directive about scout involvement.

 

Personally I see no reason to not have the scout involved. A scout is trustworthy right?

Edited August 19, 2015 by Bad Wolf

[dfolson]

For the Northern Star Council, the Troop Advancement Chair requests the letters based on the names and addresses from the Eagle application form.  When the packet is complete, the AC delivers to the registrair (including any reference letters received).   The entire packet once validated by the Council is given to the District AC to coordinate the EBoR.  At any time new letters are received, they may be passed on to the packet for distribution to the board proior to the BOR.  After the BoR - as long as there are no complications (denial, postponement...) the letters are destroyed by the Chair of the BoR. 

 

If a packet is ready to go to the Council and letters have been requested but none received, it is acceptable for the packet to be submitted regardless.  At any point letters may be added to the packet.  Our registrair does confirm that all required reference fields are filled out and that letters were requested.

 

This is my impression of the process I have followed for the last few Eagles from our Troop.

[qwazse]

Odd they let the scout collect them given BSA's directive about scout involvement.

 

Personally I see no reason to not have the scout involved. A scout is trustworthy right?

I think the GTA's stipulations are fairly new. Eventually, the district advancement chairs may come around, and it will trickle into roundtable training sessions. But ...

 

There is a certain dignity in this town. If you're going to write about someone -- favorable or otherwise, they deserve to read it.

If you don't have the stones to write/say something unfavorable to someone's face, then either:

1. It's untrue or unimportant, or
2. You have no room to talk.

If you suspect someone may have something unfavorable to say, then you don't ask for them to put it in a letter ... ever.

 

That sentiment runs deep. I've seen it expressed in sport, union negotiations, religion, and local politics.

 

And, there are no secrets in scouting. Or, so I'm told.

[fred johnson]

I think the GTA's stipulations are fairly new. 

 

"fairly new" is a relative statement.    The 2011 version of the BSA GTA said pretty much the same thing.

 

 

Completed reference responses of any kind are the

property of the council and are confi dential, and only

review-board members and those offi cials with a specifi c

need may see them. The responses are not to be viewed

by, or returned to, the Scout. Doing so could discourage

the submission of negative information. For the same

reason, those providing references shall not be given

the option of waiving confi dentiality. Once a review has

been held, or an appeal process conducted, responses

shall be returned to the council, where they will be

destroyed after the Eagle Scout credentials are released

or the appeal is concluded.

[Twocubdad]

This is one area BSA has made WAY too complicated.  Our council has pushed the responsibility off onto the troops.  Hmmm.  What if we don't accept the responsibility?

 

I'm always amazed at how difficult it is to get letters from references.  You would think most folks would be very happy to provide a letter and would mail it in short order.  But it's usually a huge PIA.  Far more trouble that any value the always-positive letters add to the process.

 

The process here is the Scout asks the reference for a letter.  We provide the Scouts template for an envelope so they are identifiable when returned to the SM (I've inadvertently opened a couple when they come in plain envelopes -- OH NO! A rule violation!)  If the letters are forthcoming, I ask the Scouts to make one follow-up contact with the reference.  I know the Scouts aren't supposed to do that, but too bad.  Still no letter I make one phone.  Then we submit the application short a letter.  That's where it gets fun.

 

The folks at the Scout shop are trained NOT to accept Eagle apps which don't have the required 5 or 6 letters.  That only happened to me once.  I then walked over to the shelf, got a copy of the Guide to Advancement and turned to the above pages.  I then asked the person to please put in writing that they had refused to accept the Scout's application because of a lack of references.  I told them I need the statement to include with our appeal to national.  Word spread pretty quick and I don't get much of a hassle the last time it or two.

[fred johnson]

I've inadvertently opened a couple when they come in plain envelopes -- OH NO! A rule violation!

 

I don't see that as a rule violation.  The scoutmaster has been designated as part of the reference letter collection process and he's a registered leader in the council.  He needs to confirm what is in the envelope and he needs to deliver the Eagle rank application with all attachments.  Our scoutmaster always opens them as part of getting the packet nicely organized.  

 

 

I ask the Scouts to make one follow-up contact with the reference.

 

There is no violation there.  In your situation, the scout is part of the designated process to distribute the forms and provide reminders.  For our scouts, I suggest they keep politely following up until the scoutmaster says he has the references.  

 

The issue is making it a requirement.  We can't hold up the scout because the "reference" does not follow through.

[Twocubdad]

Fred, from the G2A:

 

 

" It is acceptable to send or deliver to the references an addressed envelope with instructions, and perhaps a form to complete. The Scout may assist with this, but that is the limit of his participation. He is not to be responsible for follow-through or any other aspect of the process."

 

And,

 

"Completed reference responses of any kind are the property of the council and are confidential, and only review-board members and those officials with a specific need may see them."

 

It is emphasized to us by the council advancement committee that the candidate may is not responsible for ANY follow-up in collecting the letters.  (Personally, I think it is a point of courtesy for the Scout to make a friendly reminder, rather than someone unknown to the reference calling and asking why you haven't responded -- and thus my rule that the Scout makes one  follow up call.)  Secondly, we are required to submit the letters UNOPENED, in their original envelopes, to the council.  A couple times when I've inadvertently opened letters jumbled in with the rest of my mail, I was the council paper pushers asked me to put it in another envelope with an explanation of why the original was opened, seal and sign it.  Sheesh. 

 

But I like your interpretation better, Fred.  If it comes up again, I'll quote you.

[vumbi]

We basically interpret the application literally: "Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf."

Nothing there that requires the scout or the unit to do anything more than supply the names. So that's all we do.

 

I'll add that our district doesn't make these decisions, the council does. I've never known whether or not any of those names are ever contacted for letters. I've also never heard of a candidate having problems as a result of the references. It seems like if you can find someone to provide the reference, it is unlikely that the reference will be a bad one.

Edited August 23, 2015 by ya lazima vumbi