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mattman578

Singing? For Your Stuff (Edited By Packsaddle)

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Are you saying there is no difference between deliberately embarrasing a Scout and a Scout becoming embarrassed inadvertently?  

 

Obviously there are differences. But if the goal is to eliminate embarrassing situations that are a result of the program then we should seek to eliminate anything that could cause embarrassment. 

 

Having a stuttering Scout perform a COH is not inadvertent embarrassment. Having Scouts who were elected but not tapped out stand in front of an entire camp to see they weren't elected is not inadvertent.

 

So there is institutional situations in the BSA program that cause embarrassment just as much as singing for a canteen. If you disagree with the latter I don't see how you can support the others.

 

If we're to train up these lads to become the best kind of citizen, then part of that training should include not judging another Scout or person for a choice they're making that the other's aren't - to make, for instance, the sight of the overweight Scout wearing a t-shirt at the waterfront because he's embarrassed by his belly a non-issue.  We need to remind the older Scouts that we don't encourage the younger Scouts to try harder by catcalling them but by cheering them on, just as they were (or should have been) cheered on when they tried throwing that line over a tree branch and it took them 6 tries before they could do it.

 

But using that argument, if we are training these kids properly they won't be laughing at Tommy for singing for his lost item. It cuts both ways.

 

For the record, I am split on the issue. We don't use it in my unit anymore but I experienced it as a kid more than once and it never scarred me for life.

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So what are you doing about this?  Are you just throwing up your hands and saying "there is nothing I can do" and using it as an excuse to say if it's ok for the OA to do it, it's ok for us to do it?  Or will you take the next step, having identified an example of what very well might qualify as hazing under the BSA policy, and send the Lodge Advisors (both staff and volunteer) and the Scout Executive a letter or e-mail expressing your concern about this practice and asking them to end it immediately?

 

That ball is in your court.

 

Yup it is. Guess what? Reported it to district and council. Quite respectfully I might add. Know what happened? I got a lecture on my Scouts being over sensitive. Basically told to shut the front door....if you know what I mean. So much for your plan.

 

So yeah, we protect our kids all the time. Hence why we focus on our unit and not district or council events. I don't trust them.

Edited by Mozartbrau

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The mess hall at our local council camp snatches the hats off anyone entering wearing one.  I normally wear a full uniform (including hat) all during summer camp except for showers, sleeping and swimming.  Well, they took my hat and hung it up in the rafters and after the meal boys that want there hats back have to sing for them.  Usually there are a lot of boys that forget so no one boy is singled out to sing.  Well I went up there and asked for my hat back, they said I had to sing for it.  I said, I came into the dining hall in full uniform, is it camp policy to encourage improper uniforms?  He conceded no, that's not what is expected.  I said someone should sing to get my hat back, and it's probably the gentleman at the door that took it should sing to get it back.  He did after the entire mess hall cheered him on!  :)

 

I had another camp that called out my boys at flags for wearing their hats (Expedition style, not baseball style).  It's really surprising how embarrassed the council staff can get when they have these kinda stupid rules that run counter to proper scouting.  My SPL marched the troop back to camp one morning because when they got to flags they were told this was a non-uniform day at camp and we weren't dressed properly.  Boys went back to camp and from then on did their own flag ceremony each morning and evening.

 

It's our troop policy that if some camp or scout program expects one of our boys to sing, dance, or whatever, for some reason, the PL, SPL and SM all sing with him.  Once one of the PL's screwed up and his entire patrol came up and sang with him.  

 

There are appropriate ways of dealing with this issue that produce esprit-de-corps instead of embarrassment.   Always stay one step ahead when it comes to stupid games.

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The mess hall at our local council camp snatches the hats off anyone entering wearing one.  I normally wear a full uniform (including hat) all during summer camp except for showers, sleeping and swimming.  Well, they took my hat and hung it up in the rafters and after the meal boys that want there hats back have to sing for them.  Usually there are a lot of boys that forget so no one boy is singled out to sing.  Well I went up there and asked for my hat back, they said I had to sing for it.  I said, I came into the dining hall in full uniform, is it camp policy to encourage improper uniforms?  He conceded no, that's not what is expected.  I said someone should sing to get my hat back, and it's probably the gentleman at the door that took it should sing to get it back.  He did after the entire mess hall cheered him on!   :)

 

I had another camp that called out my boys at flags for wearing their hats (Expedition style, not baseball style).  It's really surprising how embarrassed the council staff can get when they have these kinda stupid rules that run counter to proper scouting.  My SPL marched the troop back to camp one morning because when they got to flags they were told this was a non-uniform day at camp and we weren't dressed properly.  Boys went back to camp and from then on did their own flag ceremony each morning and evening.

 

 

Ours does the same thing.  So, not only if you leave something behind, if they take something from you you have to do something like "Kissing the Moose" in front of the entire dining hall.  Again, very mixed messages by scouting.  And all in the name of tradition.

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Example: I saw that two of my Scouts had pitched their tent in the dark and had left the stuff sacs, pole/stake bag, and various other things lying around camp until well into the next day. Instead of making a show I just took both Scouts aside and explained that the tent belonged to the Troop and asked them if that was how they treated their own stuff.  No one laughed at them and they understood--through my gentle reminder--that they should take more care with the gear and not leave things out to get wet, lost, or damaged.

 

 

Before I got involve with our troop (about 40 years ago), a new scout went camping with the troop.  He wore tennis shoes and blue jeans, and did not bring anything else.  He left his tennis shoes out of the tent when he went to bed.  It snow that night!  That was the end of his scouting career - and his mother work for the BSA Council.

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Before I got involve with our troop (about 40 years ago), a new scout went camping with the troop.  He wore tennis shoes and blue jeans, and did not bring anything else.  He left his tennis shoes out of the tent when he went to bed.  It snow that night!  That was the end of his scouting career - and his mother work for the BSA Council.

 

So this Scout left his shoes out in the snow and decided to quit Scouting?  You didn't make him do Irish dancing or sing an aria because he screwed up did you?   ;)

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My point is there's embarrassment throughout scouting. Unless you've eliminated ALL of it, decrying signing for stuff is a bit hypocritical, no?

 

No.  There's nothing wrong with prohibiting bad conduct one step at a time.

 

In my entire Scouting life I have never heard of this "singing" stuff except for reading about it in this forum.  I would not tolerate it.

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My troop voted to require 5 push-ups from boys who spoke when they were supposed to be listening.  At one point or another everybody does push-ups.  That  is less embarrassing than being singled out for being disrespectful of other peoples time, and it keeps the meetings moving.  We carry on while the blabbermouth is getting exercise on the floor.

 

A few boys are building some good shoulders!

 

Surely you're joking, JoeBob  :blink:

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Surely you're joking, JoeBob  :blink:

 

Ya beat me to it, I was gonna ask him about his shoulders.  He did say, "At one point or another everybody does push-ups. "

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The mess hall at our local council camp snatches the hats off anyone entering wearing one.  I normally wear a full uniform (including hat) all during summer camp except for showers, sleeping and swimming.  Well, they took my hat and hung it up in the rafters and after the meal boys that want there hats back have to sing for them.  Usually there are a lot of boys that forget so no one boy is singled out to sing.  Well I went up there and asked for my hat back, they said I had to sing for it.  I said, I came into the dining hall in full uniform, is it camp policy to encourage improper uniforms?  He conceded no, that's not what is expected.  I said someone should sing to get my hat back, and it's probably the gentleman at the door that took it should sing to get it back.  He did after the entire mess hall cheered him on!   :)

You are clearly a better man than I am Stosh, I would not have handled that garbage with such aplomb. If a camp staffer snatches the hat off the head of me or one of my scouts, my reaction would be that they either return the hat immediately with an apology, or police will be called and charges filed.

 

I had heard of camps doing this, but I had no idea any still do. I'm dumbfounded! What stupid idiot came up with this idea? If they perceive that a scout is not showing sufficient respect, their idea is to heap more disrespect on them as an answer? By committing larceny? Have any of these idiots even heard of the Scout Law?

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You are clearly a better man than I am Stosh, I would not have handled that garbage with such aplomb. If a camp staffer snatches the hat off the head of me or one of my scouts, my reaction would be that they either return the hat immediately with an apology, or police will be called and charges filed.

 

I had heard of camps doing this, but I had no idea any still do. I'm dumbfounded! What stupid idiot came up with this idea? If they perceive that a scout is not showing sufficient respect, their idea is to heap more disrespect on them as an answer? By committing larceny? Have any of these idiots even heard of the Scout Law?

I agree, I'd be pretty peeved in that situation. I think I could keep harsh words to myself if it was a kid, if it was an adult. I'd probably let em know exactly what my thoughts were. 

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Ya beat me to it, I was gonna ask him about his shoulders.  He did say, "At one point or another everybody does push-ups. "

 

No joke at all.  Are push-ups for talking out of turn considered hazing?  When the PLC gets the whole troop to vote on it, and the troop approves the policy (it may have been unanimous)?

 

And yes, everybody is subject to the same rule.  I've done push-ups for answering a question too loudly on the side; and adults talking too loudly in the back of the room while the boys are trying to meet in the front are introduced to the 'front leaning rest'.

 

It's not 50 push-ups; it's 5.  Just enough to interrupt your private conversation and get you re-focused on the meeting.

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Yes. BSA has considered it unacceptable for some time to use push ups/physical work as punishment. It really does not matter if the scouts voted for it and the troop approved. This practice should be discontinued immediately.

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For the sake of argument...

 

Would it be considered hazing to recite the oath and law on his own to get his canteen back?

 

If so, why is it okay to require the reciting of the oath and law at a BOR or SMC but not to put a positive spin on the lost item scenario?

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I was totally impressed when, at a meeting of all the civilian lab personnel, the general ordered the colonel to drop and "give him 10" right in front of the entire auditorium...because the colonel didn't answer a question quickly enough. I can tell you that after watching that I memorized all those answers forthwith (but never was asked for them, sigh).

I guess this IS one difference between scouting and the military.

So...how about when I sing to everyone. Is that hazing?

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