Sign-offs

[Twocubdad]

I got way-laid last night by something I never saw coming.

 

We've been dealing with a lot of frustration with this year's crop of new Scouts and their parents over the pace of advancement. Only one or two of 16 boys have made Tenderfoot since crossing over in March. Not being terribly advancement focused, I've not been too concerned, but I'm getting a lot of guff from parents.

 

In discussing why they boys aren't getting requirement signed off in their handbooks, I learned last night that in the pack, the boys don't have their handbooks signed when they complete a requirement. Apparently, the parent logs on to the boy's ScoutTrack account and the parent updates the record. I'm not sure how this happens; whether the parents are aware of what the boy has or hasn't done, if there is some communication from the Den Leader or if the boys and the parents somehow work together. But the bottom line is these new Scouts have no concept of learning a skill, approaching a leader to be tested and then having their book signed.

 

I've always assumed this was part of the common culture of Scouting. I've been involved in one side or the other of this process since I was eight years old. As a Scoutmaster I've learned that I have to take care to teach this to boys who join the troop with no Cub Scouting experience, but I suppose we now have to teach this to all the new Scouts.

 

I don't get surprised often, but this was sure a shock. Anyone else seeing this? Do other packs operate this way? Is this the way Cub Scouting works these days or is our pack an outlier?

[qwazse]

So, do these parents want to buy the PL's smart phones, so they can log the skills they observe in each boy?

 

By "lots of guff" are a dozen parents livid at you? Or, are a couple pushing to innovate and want you to get with the program?

[fred johnson]

Yes and IT IS A BIG ISSUE !!!!!

 

Some things should not be automated and then kept simple. Sign offs in the book. A big poster board tracking advancements. Those should be the official spots for Cub Scouts.

 

Instead, leaders are promoting automation and giving parents sign-ins to ScoutTracks or TroopMaster or ... Automation is great for communication and scheduling, but not scouting advancement.

 

---- promotes scouts not bringing their books

---- promotes getting putting parents in the advancement loop ... once in, they are hard to remove

---- promotes focus on specific requirements instead of participating in fun den activities

---- promotes justifying anything you can for advancement and recording it.

---- advancement leaders forget to get advancements into ScoutNET for long-term recording.

 

The biggest issue IMHO is tracking "IN" the book makes the scout bring and open their scout handbook. Heck, they just might read more of it. Not tracking in the book hugely discourages using the book.

[Eagle94-A1]

This is my interpretation of the topic of CS Advancement. If you read the pack and meeting den planning book, as you do the meetings, the Cubs automatically get whatever bead they have earned at the end of the meeting. For example after this weeks meeting, if i was going by the book I would have awarded the 2 Tigers beads they earned that nite. Then you record it on the den advancement report to give to the advancment person in the pack. No need to sign off in the book.

[koolaidman]

Hi Twocubdad,

 

I don't believe your pack is an outlier. Our pack operated in the same fashion. The only difference is in Webelos, the den leader logged the achievement in Scout Track since the parents' permission was taken away.

 

I think the unintended consequence of making the advancement chairs' lives easier with the software is the scout has absolutely no idea what he has done to advance. So after 4.5 years of never looking at a requirement and having it all planned out for them by adults, it naturally becomes confusing for the scout and his parents who don't know any better when be becomes a Boy Scout..

 

I think you could stop the bleeding by having a parent meeting to explain Boy Scout advancement to the parents and having the SPL and PLs go over it with be boys. The for the next batch of new parents and scouts, get ahead of the game by explaining it to them during Webelos visits or very soon after the cubs crossover into the troop.

 

Rule stickler disclaimer: Per the Guide to Advancement we can not expect the boys to seek out a leader for the signoff. If the requirement was completed, they deserve the signoff. I don't believe this precludes giving the boy an opportunity to seek out the signoff though. in my perfect world, I'd give the scout a week to seek the signoff, if he doesn't, find the scout, signoff after a discussion of what he did and why its being signed off, then give encouragement for him to seek out signoffs in the future.

 

Your misery has my company. I hope things are able to get smoothed over with your parents.

 

 

 

 

[perdidochas]

I got way-laid last night by something I never saw coming.

 

We've been dealing with a lot of frustration with this year's crop of new Scouts and their parents over the pace of advancement. Only one or two of 16 boys have made Tenderfoot since crossing over in March. Not being terribly advancement focused, I've not been too concerned, but I'm getting a lot of guff from parents.

 

In discussing why they boys aren't getting requirement signed off in their handbooks, I learned last night that in the pack, the boys don't have their handbooks signed when they complete a requirement. Apparently, the parent logs on to the boy's ScoutTrack account and the parent updates the record. I'm not sure how this happens; whether the parents are aware of what the boy has or hasn't done, if there is some communication from the Den Leader or if the boys and the parents somehow work together. But the bottom line is these new Scouts have no concept of learning a skill, approaching a leader to be tested and then having their book signed.

 

I've always assumed this was part of the common culture of Scouting. I've been involved in one side or the other of this process since I was eight years old. As a Scoutmaster I've learned that I have to take care to teach this to boys who join the troop with no Cub Scouting experience, but I suppose we now have to teach this to all the new Scouts.

 

I don't get surprised often, but this was sure a shock. Anyone else seeing this? Do other packs operate this way? Is this the way Cub Scouting works these days or is our pack an outlier?

 

Well, you have to teach and guide the boys to learn your advancement system. I think you should have had your SPL or older Scouts explain to the younger Scouts the whole get your book signed. You probably should have asked them.

 

To some degree, Webelos should have started them on this path. Webelos is the only part of Cub Scouts where the parents aren't supposed to sign off advancement.

[Eagledad]

It is interesting to watch how technology is changing our behavior patterns. I work in the aviation industry and the type of training and how it is being applied in the industry has changed a lot in the last 20 years just as a result of computer technology.

 

The forum has discussed in the past the idea of giving the Scout and Merit Badge Counselor total autonomy over the completion of the MB requirements simply by logging into the scouting computer data system. The result would take the MB part of the program totally out of the hands of the troop. I actually kind of like that idea. Last week there was a discussion asking if scouts even need handbooks anymore. Well I guess they need them for logging their advancement at the very least, but what if they could do that from their cell phone.

 

Leaders today certainly have different issues to deal with than we had just 15 years ago. LOL

 

Barry

[LeCastor]

Last week there was a discussion asking if scouts even need handbooks anymore. Well I guess they need them for logging their advancement at the very least, but what if they could do that from their cell phone.

 

Barry

 

Barry, I think you'll agree that we all were for keeping a handbook and fieldbook in the hands of the Scouts. It's just the format that is in question these days. Digital vs. paper. You are onto something there with the cellphone idea.

 

Twocubdad, I had a similar situation with a parent following a court of honor earlier this summer. After the active Scouts had all earned their awards, a parent approached me and asked why her son didn't earn anything. Well, I told the parent that the majority of the badges had been earned independently of the Troop and that the rank advancements had happened through active participation in summer camp, regular patrol outings, etc. The parent couldn't understand why her son--who hadn't even been around except for one campout and a handfull of meetings--hadn't advanced or earned any merit badges.

 

We've started a mentoring program in our Troop where veteran parents team up with parents of new Scouts. That way the new parents can learn to take a step back and let the PL guide the new Scouts. Over the past three years, I've really encouraged the older Scouts to mentor the new guys and sign off for completed requirements. That was a procedure that was taboo before I was SM...Can you imagine that? Only adults can sign off on requirements? GBB is shaking his head.

 

Perhaps the SPL/PL/Troop Guide/Instructor, etc need a quick refresher on mentoring the new dudes? Maybe an Introduction to Leadership Skills for Troops is in order? Perhaps a parent night where the SM/ASMs put on a welcome-to-the-Troop-this-is-how-it-works talk?

 

At any rate, Twocubdad, I feel your pain. It wasn't fun talking to that irate parent about her son.

[qwazse]

(Point of clarification to some of the replies that were cub-specific. In spite of his handle, the OP is dealing with troop management issues. Although it sounds like some cross-over parents are asking, "Why can't we do it like we did in the Pack?")

 

I think we need to stick with the hardcopy handbook, initials, and notes for one simple reason. It's a wonderful momento. Two examples:

 

I showed my scouts my HB a few months ago. They got a kick out of it, and a few went straight to the back and compared what MB's I earned to their list. One boy was quite proud that I earned an elective MB that he was also interested in.

 

Last year, after a Wilderness First Aid course, a venturer (from out of our area) asked the instructor to sign her Ranger hand-book. This guy hadn't initialed an advancement for years! It was amusing to see the puzzle look on his face. (Note: in our council, we don't expect the college kids to chase signatures, we do expect them to give us course dates and show us certifications, photos, etc ...) So, some advisor in Cradel of Liberty sees this initial and dates from an old salt on the other side of the Appalachians ... not gonna tip the scales in deciding if the young lady gets the bling. But for that young lady, there's a fond memory of a weekend with some genuinely awesome scouters.

 

These books -- if they survive years of moving and child-rearing -- have stories that get pulled out of the attic and told every now and then. Those stories inspire the next generation of 1st Class Scouts. Some of those stories might show years passing between requirements. That's important too. A youth who's doubting him/herself might realize that Dad or Uncle or Mom had to be patient too. Or he/she might decide that it's time to beat the old folks' time!

 

2C, maybe that's an approach you could take. Find someone who was in the program as a youth. Ask him to bring his HB in and talk about the initials and dates in it. Tell the boys that the PLs and SPLs who will fill the pages of their books are helping them with the story of their 1st class journey as well.

[LeCastor]

 

I think we need to stick with the hardcopy handbook, initials, and notes for one simple reason. It's a wonderful momento. Two examples:

 

I showed my scouts my HB a few months ago. They got a kick out of it, and a few went straight to the back and compared what MB's I earned to their list. One boy was quite proud that I earned an elective MB that he was also interested in.

 

 

2C, maybe that's an approach you could take. Find someone who was in the program as a youth. Ask him to bring his HB in and talk about the initials and dates in it. Tell the boys that the PLs and SPLs who will fill the pages of their books are helping them with the story of their 1st class journey as well.

 

Love it!

[Stosh]

I don't bring in my HB because I only got to 2nd Class. I had a really tough time with Morse Code.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

 

Barry, I think you'll agree that we all were for keeping a handbook and fieldbook in the hands of the Scouts. It's just the format that is in question these days. Digital vs. paper. You are onto something there with the cellphone idea.

 

Oh sure, we agree.

 

I was just kind of thinking out loud of the challenges with modern technology migrating into everything. When I was SM, I encouraged (kind of lectured) the scouts to always keep their books nearby for no other reason than it is a good tool for reference. I’m sure at least 25% of the scouts lost one or more copies while in the troop. However, I can see where a scout would be more motivated to keep a Scout Handbook with him at all times if it were a digital copy in his cell phone. And with the Cloud, the records would be permanent. Hmm, interesting question to ponder.

 

Barry

[LeCastor]

I don't bring in my HB because I only got to 2nd Class. I had a really tough time with Morse Code.

 

Stosh

 

 

Wow, flat feet AND "only" made it to 2nd Class. I can't believe they let you be a Scoutmaster, Stosh!

 

[qwazse]

I don't bring in my HB because I only got to 2nd Class.

I think a HB like Stosh's would be very helpful for the 2C's troop to see.

I had a really tough time with Morse Code. ' date=',,[/quote'].. - .----. ... / -. --- - / .- -... --- ..- - / - .... . / .-. .- -. -.- / .- -.-. .... .. . ...- . -.. --..-- / .. - .----. ... / .- -... --- ..- - / - .... . / ... - --- .-. -.-- / - --- .-.. -.. .-.-.-

[Fehler]

It's not about the rank achieved. It's about the story told.