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When will National realize this *IS* affecting membership

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Eamonn, on the Roman Catholic thing, you're right, I doubt that the church is going to change its view on homosexuality any time soon. Moosetracker captured my meaning exactly - I was thinking that Catholic churches would not abandon their Scout troops if other organizations were permitted to choose gay leaders for theirs.


I'm not sure what would happen in our own case, since we are sponsored by a relatively conservative church. I suspect that the worst case would be that the church would say that they no longer want to be our official sponsor, but would allow us to keep meeting at the church.

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We can all think what might happen, but we really don't know.

To say that " this *IS* affecting membership "?

Just doesn't sit well with me.

Just as to say that it isn't. Doesn't seem right either.

My guess is that as the younger generation gets older it very well might affect membership.

Sure we have the LDS Church and the Catholics, while I haven't looked at the charts lately or done the math, but I wonder if a lot of the not so big CO's were to say that they'd walk away if the policy didn't change, if that might outnumber the two big guns.

What happens when the VFW elects officers who are openly gay?

Locally some of our Methodist Churches seem to be welcoming more and more gay members. Who knows? In time they might end up on the church boards and start telling the BSA to go take a hike.

The answer is really blowing in the wind.


Of course once the gay thing is worked out there is always the "God" thing to worry about and work on!!

But that's for another thread.

Whatever happens there is a good chance that not everyone is going to be happy.

I have a very dear and close friend. We have been friends since we were teenagers. He was a Scouter in the London area. When an openly gay man became his District Commissioner, he got so upset that he left England, moved to Utah and joined the BSA.

A change in the policy would break his heart!


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Keep in mind that demands for polygamy and to legitimize sex with children are just around the corner. The sexual liberation movement has no way to stop using its "if it feels good, do it" to ever new horizons.



Recently I read a biography of the life and time of the Roman Emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Sexual liberation was a major part of what the Roman Empire was about, and it was a highly licentious society.


When Christianity came along, it posed a real challenge to that ethic. Christians then and now valued sex as a means of procreation, not recreation, and that is the sharp edge that divides Christianity and the sexual liberation movement.


If your values are "if it feels good, do it" there is no logical place to stop. Furthermore, sexual excitement quickly becomes jaded and a lot of people must engage in ever more exotic behavior to get their sexual lusts satisfied.


That's the direction we've been headed for decades now. Unfortunately, the fundamental idea of the sexual liberation movement is increasingly controlling mainstream values.


We are becoming the Roman Empire in this regard, and there is nothing to stop the continuation of that value scheme.

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Nope.. Not of the "if it feels good do it" camp.. Just in the camp that in alot of cases homosexuality is not a choice. But, something genetic..


At least those who settle down with a long term partner, and a routine lifestyle.. There are the ones who young in life are experimenting, but I would put them in the same boat as heteros who are sleeping around.. If you haven't settled down, then a role model for scouts is not the best fit for you.. Come back in 5 or 10 years when you are more mature.


Of those who are genetically engineered to be homosexuals I will not condemn them as sinners, or immoral.. No more then I would condemn any other birth defect. Sometimes severely deformed people make me uncomfortable, because I am not sure how to act around them in a way that is natural.. But that does not mean I would exclude them from my Scout organization to relieve me of any discomfort.. I would welcome them, and hope that over time I get to know the person so that the defect becomes unnoticable over the spirit of the person I have come to get to know.

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Keep in mind that demands for polygamy and to legitimize sex with children are just around the corner. The sexual liberation movement has no way to stop using its "if it feels good, do it" to ever new horizons


I know you've got to be employing hyperbole here. You can't possibly actually believe this. You do realize we're long out of the 1950s, right?


As far as I know, Warren Jeffs is the only person in this entire country who has publicly advocated for either of those things. And the only movement he speaks for is the Complete and Utter Scumbag Movement.


Or do you honestly, truly believe that the military servicemembers who fought for the end of Don't Ask, Don't Tell - part of your whole "sexual liberation movement" - will next turn around and demand the right to rape children?

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The biggest issues I see and that have been in the news on a consistant basis ( at least in eastern, NC) is adults who end up having sexual relations with youth who are in the teenage range of 13 to 17.


But here's the kicker, it is adult heterosexual women sleeping with male youth and male teachers sleeping with female youth.


Some storied went around on the news for a week or two, some even made national news. Semms that Bruncswick Co , NC ( whichj is in the Cape Fear Council) has a huge issue w ith male teachers and female students dating, and getting married. Has happened at least 5 times in the past 10 years. Female teacher/male student hookups are not as common here, but still happen.


Everybody hear about that teacher who got pregnant by the boy in school? Big time national news. She got pregnant and they both waited til he was 18 to get back together.


Growing up in the Onslow/Pender co area of North Carolina..I heard many stories about older guys and younger girrls. Uncles who got arrested for molesting their neices. Bunch a kissing coucins stories seasoned with a guy here or there who got arrested for touching, molesting, raping younger girls. Rarely, but on occasion, a woman got arested for doing teh same to younger boys.


In almost every case, the youth were post pubescent .


NOw, I can say I have only heard on one single case of a homosexual situation where an adult hooked up with a youth. Actually, my wife found it on the NC state sexual predator website while doing the 12 miles from home registered offended check.


The homosexual woman in question was caught with a "homosexual" girl who was 17 years and 11 months old. Still a minor by state law, and still illegal.

Not saying it should have been dismised, but just pointing out that it wasn't a 40 year old woman with a 6 year old girl.


So, my only point is...based on experience of what actually happens in my my area , and what is reported and what makes the news...Homosexual adults are not something we have to worry about nearly as much as heterosexual adults. Also, none of these events happened while at scouting events wether Cub, Boy, or Girl. They happened at places where homosexuals are welcome and employed, IE: public schools, tutoring academys, private business enterprises, and at the home.


Now, we do have us a state senator who seems to give everybody reason to believe he is homosexual, but never quite lets the nail get put in the coffin lid. Has been in the news consistantly for the last 3 years.


Maybe you have heard of him NC Senator R.C. Soles from Columbus Co?


So, while I do not expect a flood of gay leaders to supply overload BSA with adult applications...I also do not see any dangerous situations happening to cause us to be on edge when pretty much every YP ( if you call it that) issue that has happened here has been between heterosexuals adults and heterosexual youth.



Personally, I do not care if a leader is gay or straight. If the leader does his job as he is supposed to do, then the scouts shouldn't be able to tell if he is gay or straight. Sex is not something that should be brought up by any leader wether gay or straight!




Now having said that, I also know that BSA and my CO allowed me to join their program. While I do not agree wither every single rule or idealology..I know that it is thei club.


Never seen anything in my 40 years that I can completely agree with in iot's entirety,. so I am not gong to suddenly stand up and demand that BSA bend over to suit me 100%





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Framkly, I'm amused by people who think there is a place to stop when you've adopted the sexual liberation ethic. Ten years ago, people would have been amused at the idea of the military permitting homosexuality or homosexual marriage ---- both featured Federal laws disapproving of each of those and signed by Bill Clinton.


We already accept children having sex with children. It's just arbitrary age discrimination to throw adults into prison for having sex when children clearly consent to such sex.


After all --- the Supreme Court says such children are entitled to consent to have an abortion without the consent of their parents. The idea that they can't consent to the sex that gets them pregnant is really absurd.


And if there is a right to get married ---- why is that limited to a single "other" person?


The sexual liberation argument just goes round and round and round, recycling the same basic arguments and applying them to tear down the next social standard of behavior.


By contrast, the traditional Christian idea that the purpose of sex is for procreation places limits on sexual behavior that have served us well for two millennia.



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I am of the beliefe that: as long as the participants are willing, of LEGAL AGE and it does not include aniamls...then who cares!


As far as us becoming the next Roman Empire...the empire did not fall due to sexual freedom. It fell to ignorance, greed and control over everything. If fell due to abuse of power and lusting after more power.


Thing is, most of Europe and Aia have alot for sexual freedom and tolerance than we do. We are repressed by thier standards. And they all haven't fallen victem to the Roman Empire sysndrom if that's what you want to call it.


Does that mean we have to adopt it? NOPE! Sure doesn't. And I know htat not every citizen of every European or Asian country is on board with it. BUt while they do not all personally engage in in those freedoms, they also do not go around telling others that they will be the end of the world by engaing in them either.


Britain and Germany are two pl;ace that have extreme sexual liberation. Two of the fetich capitols of the world. You name it, you can find it there. Neither country is heading to their demise.


Thing is m if you don't like it, you don't have to take part. You don't have to like it. I don't like rap music, but I am not about to go around telling everybody that rap is the end of the world. Neither is muzak. or that kids bop stuff.


Everybody thought that Harry Potter was going to cause kids worldwide to start experimenting in witchcraft and devil worship. People had their 15 minutes of fame on the national news because they just knew that Teletubies was going to make all kids gay.


Women in pants..bikinis...men with pierced ears....when will it ever stop?


Yet nothing happened because of it.


I'll tell you where it starts: when mom and dad's blame everything wronmg with their own kids on stuff that goes on outside the home instead of blaming themselves for never teaching and enforcing stuff at home.


Same thing as if I blame a gay neighbor for my own marrage problems ( just an example..my marrage is great!) If my marrage was strong, then nobody ele will affect it. But if it's a bad marrage full of problems...pointing my finger at other people is just another form of denial.

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There are papers that studied sexual molestation of youth. The percentage that considered themselves homosexual or bisexual was 2-6%. It did not distinguish Scouts but clearly some homosexuals molest children. The studies are too difficult to do and fraught with errors to draw definitive conclusions. That said, since homosexuals, according to the CDC, make up

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Seattle - Bravo! Spoken like a true elitist! Those in which the rules favor them, find no fault with the rules..


vol_scouter - I will agree that the statitics may be in error enough to state maybe everyone is of equal risk.. It would be foolish for our childrens sake to turn your back on the safety of your children to any group of people due to the belief their group is harmless. That goes for 80 year old grannys and grampys, although statics will show them at a lower threat also..


But I have to laugh at an idea that you feel homosexuals may be at higher risk then heterosexuals to become pedophiles, because the statics that state they are at lower risk, may be incorrect.. Therefore it is better to treat them as if they are the group that is the higher risk.. That is utter twisted non-sense, made up because you can not let go of your own prejudices..

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Here here Moosetracker.


Morals are shades of grey and what I believe is acceptable you may not. So be it.


But facts are facts. And the facts are that homosexuals are no greater threat to a child than heterosexuas and to try and equate homosexuality with peadophilia smacks of ignorance and prejudice. It saddens me that any of my fellow scouts still hold such views. and

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Heh, heh! The laws will change, under the same assault as laws limiting marriage to heterosexuals.


You simply like and approve of your own prejudices, just like those you don't approve of.


When it finds an opportune moment, the sexual liberation movement will attack limitations on sex between consenting youth and adults. You already see that in cases like Mary K Laturneau, the teacher who not only had sex but two children a a 14 year old student of hers.


After all, if they LOVE each other --- why should the government get in THEIR bedroom? Is that an argument you've heard someplace?


And sharp declines in fertility among Romans profoundly affected the history of Rome. We are seeing much the same thing happen, as is the rest of the western world.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

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Several things that you did not understand and sorry if I did no make it clear. The studies that I looked up were for homosexuals, bisexuals, and heterosexuals abusing pubertal and post-pubertal youth. Most pedophiles, who have sex with pre-pubertal children, usually have heterosexual sex. As to the likelihood of sexual abuse, the studies would indicate that at best the risk of a homosexual molesting pubertal and post-pubertal youth is the same as that of the general population and at worse they are 3 times more likely to molest. The problem is that the uncertainties do not allow one enough certainty to draw firm conclusions.




Please get your definitions and facts right.

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