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Scoutfish

1st Amendment and BSA

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Merlyn,

You won't be satisfied until the BSA admits atheists.

 

It's not going to happen.

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Certainly nothing you've posted shows anything, Ed. When you accuse me of straw man attacks, you post examples of me using analogies; when I ask for Muslims getting special treatment in schools, you post examples of equal treatment.

 

Gonzo1, I'm concerned about illegal discrimination by my government. Too many people like you are willing to ignore discrimination against atheists.

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Good to see we still have "April Fools".

 

Yah, ain't that da truth!

 

I confess I'm not particularly fond of folks from outside of a jurisdiction makin' complaints. Not sure that it's any of my business what a school district in Arizona is doing. Not my tax dollars, not my elected officials. Heck, not anybody's tax dollars goin' to a BSA unit, since BSA units typically pay their own way.

 

I reckon in my district, and Merlyn's, and everybody else's, the schools have plenty of need for involvement by thoughtful citizens who have some time to give. So when it comes to schools, I spend my time just tryin' to help my local district do an OK job for kids.

 

Maybe yeh should try that approach, Merlyn. Da schools could use your help, as a volunteer, perhaps as a board member. It'd be a nice way to contribute as a citizen, and come to appreciate the needs and challenges of a lot of kids. Certainly accomplish a lot more than what you're spendin' your time on right now, and might deepen your perspective.

 

Beavah

 

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Muslim foot baths installed in a public school and paid for by public money is a straw man?(This message has been edited by evmori)

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I am a little curious about the religion requirement. We're good, our family is Buddhist which is 'acceptable' by BSA standards, even though there is no true god in Buddhism. (Buddha is not a god, just a man, though many non-Buddhists mistake him or Hotei (the fat Buddha) as a god). The problem is, by allowing all religions the BSA cannot claim to be a Christian organization. Which means they are ignoring the needs of a portion of their membership who meets the religion requirement but does not practice some of the, shall we say, less than savory bigotry that tends to wrongfully pass as religion these days.

 

As a Buddhist I have sworn to do my best to end all suffering of all beings, so I had a bit of soul-searching to do when my family became active with scouting. I finally decided I could do my best for the boys and families in front of me, and lobby for tolerance on the side. Things like this come from within, not from fringe groups on the outside that use bullying tactics like the ACLU, after all.

 

As for first amendment, honestly, why does it matter what was meant? Human decency to each other is human decency, regardless of what our forefather's thoughts on the matter were. It was a different time, after all. Women couldn't vote, slavery was still in force, and the methods of discipline back then would lose you your kids today. Our forefathers were great men, but they were only human afterall. No human is infallible, no human is perfect.

 

My view point may not make me popular, but I can't ever be accused of not being loyal to my faith :)

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ScoutLass, I do not think anyone has claimed the BSA is a Christian Organization. The BSA along with PRAY have religious medal programs for the following among more

 

Baha'i

Buddhist

Hindu

Islamic

Jewish

 

If anyone has told you the BSA is a Christian Organization, they simply don't know what they are talking about,

 

Thank you for assisting Scouting

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Ed writes:

Muslim foot baths installed in a public school and paid for by public money is a straw man?

 

Since you don't have to be Muslim to use them, yes Ed.

 

Beavah, I get involved when first amendment rights are threatened. I know you don't care if a school outside your area violates other people's civil rights, but I do. For some reason, even though you don't care about actual civil rights violations not near you, you seem to care about MY actions even though I'm pretty sure I don't live anywhere near you, either. Which seems to say something about your warped priorities.

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Merlyn,

A person's civil rights ARE NOT VIOLATED because that person isn't allowed to join the Boy Scouts. joining is VOLUNTARY.

 

I'm sorry you think that tax payer dollars may be spent for the utility bill while scouts may be in session, I just think you're being too sensitive.

 

No one's rights are being violated. I could understand it if someone were being forced to join. There are other groups available.

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Yah, Merlyn, I get it, eh? Yeh care about yourself and your agenda, but not about children in particular.

 

Again, usin' "violate civil rights" is another hurtful exaggeration, eh? If yeh actually care about people, yeh refrain from such labeling of other groups as violators and criminals and such. We teach boys to respect folks they disagree with, and treat 'em fairly and with dignity.

 

You seem to care about MY actions even though I'm pretty sure I don't live anywhere near you, either.

 

Yeh live near me here on Scouter.com, eh? Yeh seem to have an almost child-like need to hang out with us. So yah, sure, I care about you and your actions. Not because of what you're doin' to others. Frankly, you're affecting Scouting not a whit. I care because of what holdin' all that animosity toward others is doing to you. Ain't healthy, physically, mentally, socially, or spiritually. I say da same thing to folks on the other side of the political spectrum who get all angry and hurtful.

 

So as a friend or at least a caring fellow citizen, I'd encourage you to go volunteer in your local schools because you need to learn how to do something for people and not for a cause. You'll be happier for it. You'll accomplish a lot more. And yeh just might develop a more nuanced and mature perspective about schools and clubs and kids.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

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Beavah writes:

Yah, Merlyn, I get it, eh? Yeh care about yourself and your agenda, but not about children in particular.

 

I care about even the atheist children; you don't care about their rights.

 

Again, usin' "violate civil rights" is another hurtful exaggeration, eh?

 

No it isn't. There you go being dismissive again.

 

If yeh actually care about people, yeh refrain from such labeling of other groups as violators and criminals and such. We teach boys to respect folks they disagree with, and treat 'em fairly and with dignity.

 

Well, you've certainly advocated that atheists NOT be treated fairly.

 

You seem to care about MY actions even though I'm pretty sure I don't live anywhere near you, either.

 

I've already said I DO care about rights violations that happen elsewhere; you, on the other hand, wrote "I confess I'm not particularly fond of folks from outside of a jurisdiction makin' complaints. Not sure that it's any of my business what a school district in Arizona is doing." But you seem to care what *I* do even though I don't think I live near you.

 

Yeh live near me here on Scouter.com, eh? Yeh seem to have an almost child-like need to hang out with us. So yah, sure, I care about you and your actions. Not because of what you're doin' to others. Frankly, you're affecting Scouting not a whit.

 

I disagree; I had a lot to do with remove public school charters.

 

...

So as a friend or at least a caring fellow citizen,

 

You're no friend of mine, and your "caring" I can certainly do without.

 

I'd encourage you to go volunteer in your local schools because you need to learn how to do something for people and not for a cause. You'll be happier for it. You'll accomplish a lot more. And yeh just might develop a more nuanced and mature perspective about schools and clubs and kids.

 

"Nuance" that justifies official religious discrimination by public schools? Sorry, your "nuance" is reprehensible, and just a smokescreen for majoritarianism that ignores the rights of anyone outside your approved, special groups.

 

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Merlyn,

 

Your most recent posts reveal a person crusading for a cause. You involve yourself in activities in neighborhoods where you have no contact where no one in that neighborhood has a concern with your issue. There are many politicians that I have strong feelings about but I have never sent support to anyone that I cannot vote for because that is not my business. Whether scouts or any other groups are in the schools in my area is not your business.

 

Your responses to Beavah shows a intolerance and anger with those who do not share your world view. You clearly only care for atheist children. When presented with the idea of schools allowing after school activities for atheists along with Boy Scouts and others, you totally rejected the idea but were comfortable with schools supporting an atheist group. You are not interested in preventing the abuse of First Amendment guarantees except to outlaw public religious expression.

 

I truly feel sorry for you. Such anger for the vast majority of your countrymen and intolerance of their beliefs must be difficult to bear.

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Sorry Merlyn but building a Muslim foot bath is more of a violation of the 1st Amendment than chartering a BSA unit. It makes no difference if the foot bath can be used by everyone. If it was built for a specific religion in a public funded school with taxpayer money THAT is endorsing a religion which is a direct violation of the 1st Amendment.

 

Joining a BSA unit is not a right!

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vol_scouter writes:

Your responses to Beavah shows a intolerance and anger with those who do not share your world view.

 

When they constantly advocate atheists being officially second-class citizens by having public schools discriminate against them, correct. I have no patience for people willing to sacrifice atheists' rights so they aren't personally inconvenienced.

 

You clearly only care for atheist children.

 

Wrong. I've consistently argued for equal treatment, in stark contrast to the innumerable arguments where atheists are expected to get whatever the majority decides to allow them.

 

When presented with the idea of schools allowing after school activities for atheists along with Boy Scouts and others, you totally rejected the idea but were comfortable with schools supporting an atheist group.

 

I did no such thing. Quote where I wrote this.

 

You are not interested in preventing the abuse of First Amendment guarantees except to outlaw public religious expression.

 

Well, now you're just lying.

 

Of course you quote NO examples of anything I've actually written to support your lies.

 

Ed writes:

Sorry Merlyn but building a Muslim foot bath is more of a violation of the 1st Amendment than chartering a BSA unit.

 

Atheists (and anyone else) can use the foot baths, Ed, but atheists can't join the BSA unit.

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