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Scoutfish

1st Amendment and BSA

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DO the foot baths have any Islamic insignia on them? ANything that designates them as being religious items or things to be used in religious customs?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

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Merlyn,

 

Where have you ever supported the rights of the people to exercise religion in public as called for in the First Amendment? It is painful for it to be pointed out to you that you are intolerant of others whereas those of us on the other side are tolerant. You make up arguments of children being harmed in areas where you do not live and cannot know if that harm is taking place. You are to be pitied for the hate that you have of the majority of your fellow citizens. I truly hope that you can find some peace and happiness, cease meddling in others affairs, and learn tolerance of others.

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vol_scouter, instead of posting anything I've written to support his lies, tries to throw the responsibility back on me:

Where have you ever supported the rights of the people to exercise religion in public as called for in the First Amendment?

 

Look, YOU accused ME of this: "You are not interested in preventing the abuse of First Amendment guarantees except to outlaw public religious expression. "

 

You're LYING. You need to post things I have actually written to support your claim.

 

It is painful for it to be pointed out to you that you are intolerant of others whereas those of us on the other side are tolerant.

 

I don't consider lying about my views "tolerant," nor do I consider advocating that government agencies be allowed to run private "no atheist" clubs to be "tolerant."

 

You make up arguments of children being harmed in areas where you do not live and cannot know if that harm is taking place. You are to be pitied for the hate that you have of the majority of your fellow citizens. I truly hope that you can find some peace and happiness, cease meddling in others affairs, and learn tolerance of others.

 

As expected, vol_scouter posts NOTHING to support his lies, only more self-important blather to show how much more tolerant and moral he is than me. Except for his lies, I suppose.

 

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No need to fret vol_scouter. Merlyn can twist stuff better than an Olympic diver.

 

From an article

 

Somehow, the American Civil Liberties Union - normally given to howls of execration at the mere thought of a creche in any semipublic place at Christmastime - is not challenging any of this. Why? Because, it says, it's not a matter of religion but of "cleanliness and safety." Foot-washing in regular sinks can be a messy business. It can also be off-putting for non-Muslims who must use the sinks and rest rooms for ordinary purposes.(This message has been edited by evmori)

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Merlyn,

 

For the folks who have kept up with these issues, they know that when faced with what Madison said and his actions concerning the First Amendment rights regarding religion, you started calling me names because you were not correct. You are intolerant of those who believe in reading the entire First Amendment and resort to calling me names. I have more important things to do than to do searches to prove that I am correct. In your posts to Beavah, you showed your prejudice and intolerance. You are clearly so full of dislike (hate?) for the majority of your countrymen, that I truly feel sorry for you.

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Yeah, I don't know about other places, but down here in Florida, our schools are full of kids who are looking for places to wash their feet. And they are from all religions. Sadly, we don't have very many foot baths here. ;)

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Well vol_scouter, assuming you're referring to this thread, the only one google finds with "madison vol_scouter merlyn_leroy":

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=223949&p=6

 

OK, what in the above thread supports your assertions about me?

 

vol_scouter writes:

You are intolerant of those who believe in reading the entire First Amendment and resort to calling me names.

 

I've called you a liar because you wrote lies about me. That's not namecalling.

 

I have more important things to do than to do searches to prove that I am correct.

 

Like I predicted, you can't back up your lies (of course you can't, because they're lies). So now you say you're just too busy. Not too busy to lie about me, but too busy to back up your assertions.

 

And spare me your vile false "pity."

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Merlyn,

 

If am not accurate that you support the free exercise of religion clause of the constitution, then show where you have posted that on this forum. You are doing the same thing that you freely accuse others: "And spare me your vile false "pity."" My pity for you is real and not vile.

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vol_scouter, YOU lied about ME. YOU need to quote something I wrote to support YOUR assertions.

 

Here is what YOU wrote:

"You are not interested in preventing the abuse of First Amendment guarantees except to outlaw public religious expression. "

 

You have so far REFUSED to support your assertion above; you feel free to write lies about me, but not support them.

 

I will continue to call you a liar until you support your own assertions about me.

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Merlyn,

 

In this thread and in a recent thread you displayed an intolerance for allowing a scout group from meeting in a school but saw nothing wrong with an AA group doing the same. Most of the other posters here said that they had no problems with that but you did. You are intolerant. You are clearly expert about twisting the thread and never addressing those things to which you can not respond so I am just copying your own methods. You have shown yourself to be intolerant, angry, and someone to be pitied. I am not lying.

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vol_scouter writes:

In this thread and in a recent thread you displayed an intolerance for allowing a scout group from meeting in a school but saw nothing wrong with an AA group doing the same.

 

Then you'll have NO PROBLEM quoting exactly what I said, right?

 

Right?

 

Why haven't you done this yet?

 

You are intolerant. You are clearly expert about twisting the thread and never addressing those things to which you can not respond so I am just copying your own method

 

I actually QUOTE things people write. You just keep lying about me, but you don't QUOTE what you claim I've said.

 

Now, here's something I've written in this thread:

No, because the government likewise won't (and can't) charter groups that exclude other people, such as a group that only allows atheists to join.

 

OK, now right here I've stated that the government can't charter BSA groups AND they likewise can't charter a group that only allows atheists.

 

And here's another bit from me:

Any other group that practices religious discrimination would be treated identically

 

Equal treatment AGAIN, as stated by me.

 

Now, here's I'm referring to an all-white basketball team:

For all those who think a public school could charter a BSA unit, how about if public schools formed teams for the new "All-American Basketball Alliance"? It's whites-only, but I'm sure that's OK if nobody is required to play on the team, and people can still start their own sports teams. And refusing to form such a team is discrimination against whites, and we all know schools can't practice racial discrimination, so that means they're REQUIRED to form them.

 

And here I point out that the legal issues are similar:

The legal issues are the same; since some people are STILL putting forth the bizarre view that NOT chartering a BSA unit is somehow religious discrimination against those who would like to join, then NOT creating an all-white basketball team must also be racial discrimination against those who would like to join that.

 

 

Now, if THIS is what you're referring to, I'm afraid you can't even read. But I have no idea WHAT you're referring to, because I keep demanding you QUOTE ME and you keep RUNNING AWAY.

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It's all about perspective vol_scouter! Just like that portion of the article I posted.

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I know that BSA isn't supposed to charter BSA units to so called "public or government entities" like schools and police anymore. I think you agree that "Friends of _____ school" are acceptable. I asked my district executive yesterday how many units are chartered to these public entities across the country. Would you believe that it is less than 15. He didn't have the exact figure, but it's real low. And getting lower, I think you don't have much to squabble about anymore.

 

I'm sure you're going to slice and dice this post into little segments and address each phrase. Let me summarize it for you. There are less than 15 scout units chartered to government entities across the country. That's a pretty small number. But I'm sure you'll say that 15 is too many. Soon, it will be zero and you won't have anything to complain about.

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Gonzo1 writes:

I asked my district executive yesterday how many units are chartered to these public entities across the country. Would you believe that it is less than 15.

 

No, I wouldn't believe that. And why isn't that number zero? It's already been five years since the BSA said they wouldn't do that.

 

There are less than 15 scout units chartered to government entities across the country.

 

I'd say you're wrong.

 

Soon, it will be zero and you won't have anything to complain about.

 

Yeah, the BSA will fix it "real soon now," even though they've already had five years.

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The bottom line is that the school cannot endorse any group that restricts membership based on religion. Our school has before and after hours groups that are religious. The groups are not allowed to exclude anyone who does not match their religious beliefs and they must welcome anyone who wants to sit in on their meetings. This is the same thing as a school not being allowed to endorse or appear to endorse any group that restricts membership based on any protected criteria - race being a prime example.

 

If a group doesn't allow blacks to join it cannot meet at school.

If a group doesn't allow non-christians to join it cannot meet at school.

 

School policy in most districts clearly states that the school will not disciminate based on certain protected categories, and religion is included in most of them. So even if the 1st amendment wasn't the issue, the school has to follow it's own policy. There are many federal civil rights laws out there that schools must follow beyond just the 1st amendment. Anti-discriminatory laws are the big ones and are very expensive if the schools don't follow them. (BTW in a past life I was a city attorney, and this has been an issue several times regarding use of the public libraries. Because of the anti-discimination laws, government entities have to be very careful to avoid even the appearance of endorsing any group that disciminates)

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