OldGreyEagle Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 OK, I don't understand the conversation about how boys who just do the minimum to earn Eagle somehow don't deserve to earn Eagle. I have said before that in the University I attended, it took 120 Hours to Graduate, I do not remember anyone saying their parents would not tolerate just meeting the minimum standard so they had to earn 132 (10 percent more) before they were done with College. (I guess I see the Eagle as a diploma, you meet expectations and requirements and then you graduate) It is obvious that there is a thought that Eagle is too easy to get, that just meeting the requirements is not enough. OK, how would you upgrade the Eagle rank? What would you require of the youth that is not now required? How do we solve the conundrum of a boy meeting all the requirements but still not being Eagle material in the eye of a beholder? How do we fix the problem?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Welcome to the real world.... Did you know that Robert E. Lee graduated at the top of his class? Did you know that George A. Custer graduated at the bottom of his class? Graduating and graduating with honors is different. There are all kinds of subjective evaluations going on when one hears about certain awards. Somehow the discussion of Eagle has come up. So, Eagle can do one of two things. Show exempliary Scouting or just be a rank that boys stuck it out and got for at least doing the minimum of what scouting expects. If merely fulfilling all the requirements is all it takes, why is everyone running around looking for references and letters of recommendation? What is the message being sent? Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolesrule Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Doing the minimum in Scouting isn't going to result in advancement. If merely fulfilling all the requirements is what it takes, why doesn't every Scout earn Eagle? Advancement in and of itself is nothing more than a checklist. It's a set of predetermined goals. Sure, there is an ulterior purpose to them when combined with the other methods, but to the youth it's just a checklist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrentAllen Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Those college students all graduated with different GPAs. At my school, when you went to the placement center to sign up for company interviews, many companies set a minimum GPA to be able to interview with them. These companies obviously see a difference in quality based on GPA. We don't grade in Scouting, but instead operate on pass/fail. Unfortunately, many units fall into the habit of checking off on requirements when a Scout does the activity once. A Boy Scout badge recognizes what a young man is able to do; it is not a reward for what he has done. I've run into too many Eagle Scouts who couldn't tie a bowline or cook a meal over an open fire. They did it once, got checked off, and moved onto the next skill requirement to do it once, check it off, .... This same attitude spills over to PORs and leadership. Next thing you know, you have a Scout who has checked off all the requirements and has all the badges, including Eagle, but what has he really learned? He has learned to do the minimum, not to take the time and dedicate himself to really learning and mastering the material. The badge should recognize what the young man is able to do. Tenderfoot thru Eagle. Not just skills, but leadership, service and Scout Spirit. That is what an Eagle Scout is. If this were related to school grades, Eagles would be equivalent to A & B students, definitely above average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal_Crawford Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 "If merely fulfilling all the requirements is what it takes, why doesn't every Scout earn Eagle?" Because not every scout wants to work for it. Really, any scout who wants to do the work can earn Eagle. Part of it is living the Scout Oath and Law which will weed out some but for the most part it is the willingness to complete the merit badges that makes the difference. Is it a diploma or an honor society? It is closer to an honor society. When you get your diploma it is time to clean out you locker and move on to another phase in your life. Many Eagles age out about the same time they earn the award but for younger Eagles there is no reason they have to leave. Others choose to leave after earning Eagle because they were doing it for their parents; sort of like saying "I got into NHS so now I can drop out of school. But others who get the award at 15 or 16 will continue to be active in the same way they were as a Life scout. They are the best. Perhaps for them the diploma is when they turn 18 and become Assistant Scout Masters. Hal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 I think it all boils down to that pesky "Scout Spirit" thing. It is one of the requirements, so meeting the "minimum" means subjectively convincing your SM, CC and EBOR that you meet the Scout Spirit requirement, and for Eagle that means being the best of the best...24/7. That's the minimum...and it should not be a rubber stamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Let's look at the minimums for a moment... "Be active in your Troop and Patrol for at least N months..." That great Scout Executive, and later Mayor of Kansas City, H Roe Bartle, said it for all time: "If you give them great program, they will come." If the program gives youth age appropriate challenges, they'll be there. If not, who is the principal program officer of the Troop? Mr Scoutmaster. Why isn't he mentoring the PLC to "kick it up a notch?" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Earn 12 specified merit badges. Earn at least 9 other merit badges, for a total of 21. In each of those merit badges, the Scoutmaster should have assigned the Counselor, so the Scoutmaster understands the quality of the work which will be required. No more/no less doesn't mean the kid can't, as Requirements #33215 says... SHOW YOUR STUFF! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For a minimum of sixteen months (4 1C to Star, 6 Star to Life, 6 Life to Eagle): Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life. Let's be honest, though, most kids take much more than 16 months from the day they hit 1st Class to the day of the EBOR... The ethic is not time driven! Mr Scoutmaster, you're the guy that makes the call... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For a minium of sixteen months, serve actively in one or more of the following positions of responsibility ... (Star and Life only: (or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop)). Again, Mr Scoutmaster is the guy who makes the call. Part of leadership, Mr Scoutmaster, is when you delegate the responsibility, you also delegate the authority. If you choose to delegate POR signoff responsibility to an ASM or worse your SPL, you box yourself in to underwrite his decisionmaking. The implied task there is you persnonally train your ASM/SPL on your standards of execution. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ While a (First Class/Star) Scout, take part in service projects totaling at least six hours of work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster approves what the Scout will do, be it go to the food bank and help, paint a shed at the church, be part of a Troop conservation day at Scout Camp... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project should benefit an organization other than Boy Scouting.) The project plan must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your Scoutmaster and troop committee, and the council or district before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, BSA publication No. 512-927 , in meeting this requirement. Here the Scoutmaster is one of a team: He has a chop, the supported organization has a chop, and the District or Council Advancement Committee has a chop. Of note, both the Scoutmaster and the supported organization has a chop on the backend as well"This project was planned, developed, and carried out by the candidate."). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What is the common word among every upper rank requirement? Scoutmaster. Just as I say the Scoutmaster is the Gatekeeper on merit badges, the Scoutmaster is the mentor of his youth. It's the single indispensable duty of his position. Barry (Eagledad) says it even better: In a different thread, Barry said "I looked at job as the guardian of Scouting's Ideals. The SM is the primary judge for interpreting the Scout Law, Oath, promise, and motto for that troop for everyone in the troop." The minimum is only as easily low, or as unattainably high, as the Scoutmaster chooses it to be. The goal is to find the right point. YIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenk Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 I know I'll upset some of you, so I'll apologize up front. My son completed his Eagle Scout rank in early September of this year. His ECOH is in November. I've read this forum for many years, so I'm pretty well versed in the somewhat inflated expectations that many of the folks on this forum have for Eagle Scouts. I'm pretty sure you'd say my son does not deserve his rank. He's not the finest leader in the troop. Heck, he'll probably never be elected as SPL. The older boys are much more cool and popular than he is, and by the time they age-out the younger boys will be considered more cool and popular than he will be. He didn't get elected into OA in his first election. He completed all the required merit badges and more. Quite a few of them were at summer camp - at what many of you would describe as an Eagle-factory. Still, he did them. He did the swimming, proved his lifesaving skills, and he did the research and "sits" for EnvSci. Most of the other Eagle-required MBs were earned through troop-offered merit badge sessions. He learned first aid - though he's not an expert, he did the volunteering for Cit in the Community, the money & time tracking for Personal Management, the projects for Family Life, and the writing and interviews for Communications. He learned and experienced a lot doing them, though I'm not sure I'd call him an expert at any of the MBs he's done. He loves camping - he's gone on just about every campout since he's joined the troop, but still, in these days of dome tents and self-standing EZ-up dining flys he's not an expert at knot tying. He knows his knots, but doesn't have much of a call to use them on a regular basis. He can start a campfire, but he still struggles with them at times, depending on the type of wood available. He doesn't do a lot of cooking over an open fire - most of it is on Coleman stoves. Still, as he earned his Tenderfoot through First Class ranks, nobody complained. His camping and Scout skills were the equal of most any Scout in this area (I'm basing that from Klondike Derbies and other similar events). When he earned his Star and Life ranks nobody said he was too young or that he wasn't enough of a "super Scout". Now that he finished all of the required MBs for Eagle, Eagle project, and the other requirements - including passing the Board of Review, I get the distinct impression that the folks on this forum wouldn't think him deserving of his Eagle rank. You would say he needed to be something more - something that would make him stand above the other Scouts. You would say at 14 years old that he was too young. You would say that his summer camp and troop were merit badge factories which made his accomplishments too easy. You would say that he has to hike farther, run faster, swim better, be smarter, be more popular, be better ... He's just a nice boy who enjoys camping, who attended merit badge sessions when offered, and finished the requirements with some encouragement from parents and counselors. He took POR's and did what was needed of him. He lives by the Scout law - unlike some of the other Scouts. He did an Eagle project that he loved to do and is proud of, but that didn't do much more to change the world except for a few bats in a local park. He doesn't have big life expectations, but is filled with possibilities. He's not a super Scout, but he finished his Eagle requirements and earned his Eagle Scout rank. He's happy he earned his Eagle rank, but he doesn't make a big deal about it. Like I said, he'll probably never be SPL, doesn't show much interest in Philmont, and probably will never be a counselor at summer camp. He a good kid who just wants to go camping and be with the troop. I tell people that he's not the hare - he's the tortoise. He isn't flamboyant or especially fast or fancy, but he gets the job done. It wouldn't be enough to be an Eagle Scout in your eyes, but I'm proud of him and I (and luckily the district advancement chair) think he deserves it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolesrule Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 kenk, congrats to your son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Kenk, your son deserves the award and you deserve to be proud of him. The requirements are the bar and he made it over. Your son earned Eagle and he can be proud of it and you of him. The fact he has it means that BSA agrees. I have long advocated that this award and the other ranks, for that matter, are individual achievements for each boy. I object when adults start to make these kinds of comparisons, both to their own expectations and between boys. It is not constructive. Please do not minimize anything about your son, his aspirations and abilities, or his future. I have seen many young people who did not 'bloom' until much later in life and when they did, they excelled. Sometimes not until their senior year of college. No one but your son knows what promise is hidden in his mind, he may not know it himself. But do not let anyone minimize that of which they know nothing. Your son's Eagle might be the spark that opens the rest of his life. Congratulations. Edited to add: I agree with OGE, it's a diploma. IMHO the problem is IN the beholder. The solution is for the beholder to look at things differently.(This message has been edited by packsaddle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle90 Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Kenk - I'd take a whole troop of scouts like your son! Congratulations to you both! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrsap Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 kenk, not good enough??? Heck, give me a troop full. Congrats to your son. I'll take good skills in a good kid over super skills with a bad attitude any day. Funny thing about minimums. Let's raise the standards for Eagle so boys don't just "do the minimum". Those new standards are now the new minimum. Are they not good enough now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal_Crawford Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Kenk: Congrats to your son. He has every right to be proud of his accomplishment. You have every right to be proud of your son. I've sat on a number of EBORs and seen a lot of other scouts go through the process. Most did no more than your son. Every Eagle has his strengths and weaknesses but they all did their best in the eyes of their SM, their merit badge counselors and those that sat on their Boards of Review (from Tenderfoot through Eagle). No small feat. Hal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerscout Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Kenk-- You've nothing to apologize for. Your son did all that is required, did it without wasting much time, and that's enough. Congrats to you both! Most Scouts do not get to Eagle, so I don't understand all the griping. Of course you do understand, that to please everyone, future Eagle candidates will have to earn all 121 merit badges, plus any discontinued badges offered in the past, while turning around General Motors? Geez, guys! Are we putting too much BS into BSA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Ken, Congratulations to your son!! May all enjoy his ECOH day, may he embrace that Eagle is forever part of him now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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