desertrat77

Interesting, Bad Wolf. Just a hunch, but I think many volunteer scouters have been on the fence for years, not just about this issue, but scouting overall. And the recent decision may be the proverbial straw. Volunteer workload, less support from district/council/national, more requests for FOS, sedentary programming, more homework MBs and programs (STEM), more camps closed, more nanny rules (six foot tall signal towers!), WB Via Powerpoint and Picnic Table, etc. The program overall has been slipping for years, and the spirit of scouting has been kept alive by hard working vols at the unit level. But they have to buck the tide of strategic mediocrity as published by Irving. Regardless of where many vols stand on the pro-choice issue, it's just more drama and distraction. Who needs the aggravation? Of those that call it quits entirely, some will be acting on their convictions about the pro-choice deal. Others may not have a strong feeling one way or another, but realize that this is just as good a time as any to call it a day and find something else to do. I concur, we'll see those numbers drop. I think National either a) hopes the losses won't be too bad or b) knows there will be an exodus, in addition to the steady annual decline, and they are resigned to just making the best of it with whatever is left.

Bad Wolf, I'm inclined to agree that National is more stupid than ballsy, 99 percent of the time. But there is one grey cell bothering me...remember when National announced The Banishment of Evil Supersoakers Rule, For The Prevention of Everyones' Self Worth? Well, Irving PR releases that announcement, and everyone pounces on it. And rightfully so. A nannyish, silly, New Age knee jerk rule. Only the lawyers are happy. Then a day or two later, National releases the script of Mr. Gates' speech, which indicated that pro-choice was on the way, etc. Not much of a blip on the media radar. Seems that after everyone expended all of their energy on the water gun issues, enough attention had been paid to the BSA, and moved on to the next shiny object. Did the PR department actually think ahead and plan it that way? They may have. Granted, when it comes to long-term incompetence and cluelessness, Irving's PR department and the IT shop are neck and neck. Either way, I agree, the BSA is hardly a model for sound business, or valuing the people that actually make the organization rule--the scouts and volunteer leaders.

Yes, I did bring it up. Your interpretation of my comments and your conclusions are your own. Have good evening, Merlyn!

The GSUSA has been a ghost ship since the '70s. I have no idea how or why their numbers are they way they are. But I do know this: I was a Brownie co-leader ten years ago. And if the Irving wants to follow the GSUSA template, the BSA program will consist of fewer units, lots of meetings and popcorn sales. Little else.

National committed a foul by announcing the decision in July, before the LDS senior leaders could get back from their summer activities to confer at their National meeting in August, and then sit down with BSA senior leaders to discuss the way ahead. National did this by design. Irving gave the LDS leadership quite a stick in the eye. I think National is ready to jettison the faith-based organizations altogether, seeing the cause is lost entirely. Irving will try to replace them with units that represent the diversity/pro-choice crowd, and hope that corporate donations will spring to life again. That plan is working great for the Girl Scouts, right?

From this point forward, the pro-gay element has an easy playbook: Part 1--The Set Up Gay leader to church sponsored troop: "Let me join." Chartered org: "Sorry but no, our beliefs won't allow it. Best wishes elsewhere." Gay leader to media: "This church is full of bigots and haters." Media: "Hateful Church Discriminates Against a Wonderful Leader" Part 2--The Heat Church bombarded with negative attention from every angle Gay leader (wearing full scout uniform) receives numerous kind interviews and write ups in the press Part 3--The Drop Church turns in the charter, calls it quits Troop disbands Some scouts join other troops Some drop out entirely Media and "pro-choice" elements celebrate Part 4--Chess, Not Checkers Many churches watch this crap on the news Turn in their charters before they are on the hot seat Scouts drift to other troops Many quit Good luck on those FOS goals, BSA!

I agree with the previous comments, it's family business. If they want to have the court in one place, or both, or neither, it's their call.

Concur 100%! When I look at various leaders' guides to summer camps, I can't believe the number of sedentary MBs they offer. Offering Citizenship in the World MB at summer camp is cruel and inhumane. It might help a few Life scouts who are scrambling to finish it, but why commit the resources to help such a small group? Surely that staff member could be better utilized elsewhere in camp. Then there are the scouts who might want to take the book MBs "just because." Still not good. Their time is better spent at camp doing just about anything else, including nothing. The book MBs can be done in town. Camp only happens once a year.

I agree with Fred, the cub program lasts too long. The program changed during a long hiatus I took from scouting. When I came back and saw what the cub program had become, I was shocked, and still so. Too many badges, bangles. The years look like a death march. Bring back the earlier template: earn bobcat, wolf and bear in about 2 years. Webelo for 1 year, with the theme "here is what it is like to be a boy scout" Earn arrow of light, cross over. But I rather doubt there is any appetite at National to scale cubbing back. I'll bet they actually like it this way because cubbing is the most predictable, cookie-cutter, risk-adverse part of the BSA. Cross over into scouting, and the next thing you know, scouts will want to hike as a patrol without an adult, build pioneering towers over six feet tall, etc. If National could make the entire scouting experience, from K-12, like cub scouting, they'd do it.

LOL!

Calico, I'm not entirely sure if you are serious or not, but I'll bite. Regarding your list of dieties: would you mind sharing some of their contributions to the welfare and progress of mankind?

+1!

Thanks Sctldr, the article is spot on. Many kids think they are special snowflakes because that is what every adult has told them from day 1. No punishment, no consequences, no responsibility, no criticism. The sad thing is, the kids are better than that. The adults--parents, teachers, etc.--set the kids up for failure. When they become adults, they'll have to learn lessons that they should have learned at age 8. Saw this in the military. Many a 18 year old Airman flabbergasted that they, Mr./Ms. Special Snowflake, are told "that wasn't good enough, do it again" or "you made a bad choice and here are the consequences." Some just can't believe it. To their credit, many learn from it. Others? They can't get over 18 years of non-stop positive, undeserved affirmation of everything they did.

Eagle77, LOL! I had forgotten about the slide/nose rule--good times! PS The troop that wore the berets was on an AF base. The SM said we wore berets, so we wore them. Not very well, but we did. I also recall the Leadership Corps wearing the dark green shirt, it was a good uniform.

Eagle94, I'm having trouble remembering...I crossed over into Boy Scouts in 1974...almost everyone wore the collarless shirts that Eagle77 mentioned. I recall folks tucking their collars under to wear the neckerchief (if they had collars), but I can't recall if it was an unwritten custom or a rule. I wore the collarless shirts exclusively, except for the two '50s era Explorer dark green shirts that were issued to each summer camp staff member. This was the late 70s, and the council had a warehouse with stacks of old new stock Explorer uniforms. What a great shirt! We wore a neckerchief with that, even though it had a collar, but I'll be doggoned if I can remember what we did with the collar. Guess I'm getting old. Anyhoo, I'm all for a more functional neckerchief. Especially worn the way they did several decades ago: it looked like most of them just wrapped it around their neck, unrolled, put the slide on, tied a knot at the end (slip?) and hit the trail. One troop I was in as a kid, there were times we ironed the neckerchief and spent time rolling it perfectly. To stand inspection. SPL comes up behind you, tugs at the top of the neckerchief behind your neck and yells "babushka!" if there was slack. Add a nice red BSA beret to that ensemble, and some 10 lb Kmart hiking boots, and you are set.

Eagle77, I agree, we were taught the same and always had a neckerchief. I first heard about the full square ones on this forum several years ago, and when I had the chance to get one cheap, I said "what the heck." Glad I did. Not sure when neckerchiefs started falling into disuse, but I don't see them much any more. Maybe with the new uniform in the early '80s...they all had collars, and it just wasn't the same.

It might catch on here in The Colonies if we go back to a functional neckerchief--a full square when unfolded, made of a natural, absorbant, comfortable material, and dispense with the parade-ground obsession of rolling it up perfectly. I caught an old BSA full-square neckerchief on the auction site a few years ago, for just a few bucks. It is really nice.

Wore them faithfully as a youth. Not once as an adult. Just more "things" to keep track of. And I rather doubt anyone is interested in how many years I've been registered.

+1

And the BSA wonders why leaders stay away from training in droves.

Oddball, no chiding from me! Thanks for your realistic, frank perspectives. We need more of that in scouting.

Outstanding!

Eagle, your entire post is spot on, and this sentence especially caught my eye. It sums up exactly how I feel about the BSA.

Bad Wolf, that is funny! We were in Arizona, and went to camp that August. The pool was about the size of a suburban living room. Very small. Yet the water was very murky. Literally could not see the bottom of the tiny pool. I don't think the movie impacted us too much in AZ, yet that dark water memory remains. I spent most of my time at the rifle range. With very little spending money, I ran out quickly and could not buy ammo. So I struck a deal with the range staff. When there were no shooters, I would police the brass that had fallen forward of the firing line, and was mixed up in the pine needles and sand. For 100 empty brass casings, they would give me two live rounds as payment. Seemed like a pretty good deal at the time! Eagle77, serendipity...the last camp I was able to attend (2009) was Rodney. I was still in the AF, stationed on the east coast, and was about to deploy for a year. I was a UC, and a troop invited me to attend camp with them. It was wonderful. Our campsite was right on the edge of a cliff, overlooking Chesapeake Bay. I slept with the tent flaps open, and the breeze from the bay made for outstanding sleeping. I wasn't able to stay the entire week due to predeployment prep, but the three days I was at Rodney were superb. A great camp, solid traditions, good programing, engaged staff. I've moved a couple times since, too far away to attend Rodney, but I'd encourage everyone to go. They'll have a great camp experience.

@@eagle77, those were good days indeed...my first summer camp was 1975. Just enjoyed everything the camp had to offer with no idea or ambition of earning anything. The next year, I got a full dose of the "homework" syndrome from my new SM. He signed several of us up for Environmental Science MB. Didn't ask us, he just did it. Oh, okay. It was pretty interesting, good instructor. Enjoyed the science parts. But that long essay (500 words at the time) was lingering in the background all week. As the week drew to a close, he asked me "Have you done that essay yet?" No sir. So I was restricted to my tent until it was done. Though everything else about the week was fun, I never forgot that experience. Scouts should be on the trail, at the range, in the water, on a climbing wall, but they should not be doing paperwork at camp. The picnic table should be used for dining, making a wallet, carving a neckerchief slide, and shooting the breeze, not homework.