desertrat77

That's what we were told. I understand that camp staff is more than just a paycheck, but the "room and board" deal is a bit disingenuous from an accounting standpoint. I still like sleeping in wall tents with no electricity, but how much is that costing the council? Board, true, those teenagers eat alot. But we aren't talking about steak and pheasant, more like french toast, baloney sandwiches and sloppy joes.

Excellent point...potentially great staffers probably think twice before signing up for camp staff. If they can earn at least min wage working for their uncle's house painting business, why work for pennies at summer camp? Particularly if you are 16 years old and have a car, saving money for Philmont, and college, etc. Not sure how councils work around the min wage laws, but I recall each year I was on staff, we'd have to fill out a W4. While we were filling it out, our camp director made the same droll comment: "For tax purposes, the IRS considers junior staffers in the same category as migrant workers."

75 dollars a week? Wow, I thought they'd make more by now. As a junior staffer at summer camp ('78) I made 25 dollars a week, with a ten dollar raise per week for each subsequent year I was rehired. My third and final summer on staff, I made 45 dollars a week. A glorious sum! Looks like the BSA is really fighting to control costs, and so they are holding the line on those outrageous camp staff salaries .

Scouter Matt, Bad Wolf, Spot on. BSA camps are valuable resources. But many are poorly run. Sagging infrastructure, lousy programming, lazy staff. Result: scouts stay away in droves, less camp income, camp goes into decline, camp is sold by the council, camp becomes a subdivision.

I concur, Bad Wolf. Clearly their pay is not tied to performance. At least not how people in the field view their performance. National is clearly an organization that performs to its own complete satisfaction. Just a few months ago, National was patting themselves on the back from achieving "success" re their last strategic plan. Complete disconnect from reality. I guess if you are going to reach for a star, reach for the lowest one you can! Scouter Matt: thank you for your insights. If I'm tracking, it looks like the senior positions at National are basically gold watches for the old guys. Meetings, speeches, the buffet circuit. Reminds me of those football teams where the seniors start and play the whole game, every game, regardless of how poorly they play, "because it's their turn and they've earned it." Usually results in a losing record.

I concur, BadenP. Unfortunately, I don't think National has the will, nor the talent, to do so. Too many people in key positions at council and above that never really bought in to what made the BSA great for several decades. "Sinking ship" is the right phrase. I think National is resigned to sitting back and letting the battle damage reports roll in, hoping against hope that losses won't be too bad. Hardly an effective plan for long term success.

I concur Bad Wolf.... I went to Philmont in '77 as a scout...mowed alot of yards to help pay for it, but the trek was worth every penny. I've been trying to get back since, money is no object (just that dreaded "time" element that keeps me away). Jambo? Not for me. That's alot of money to pay to camp too close to too many people. NOAC: Went in '79 as a scout. It was cool, but I would not go again.

BSA popcorn has been a poor value for the dollar--for the patron and the seller alike--since Day 1 (late '80s). Nearly thirty years later, the general public still hasn't developed a sense of loyalty or nostalgia for BSA popcorn. Expensive, weird flavors, small quantities, etc.

Stosh, very true. Loyal scouters have kept the spirit of scouting alive for years now. They've stayed true despite the ambivalence of National towards traditional, historic scouting. While I agree that it's important that National knows why people will be leaving, the folks at Irving probably don't care. And if they did, they probably don't have the savvy to figure out what to do about it. Since '72, they have failed to cobble together any semblance of a viable, sustained vision for the future. (Exception: GB Bill's short return circa '79.) In fact, at times they've launched programs and policies that run contrary to traditional scouting (six foot signal towers? Improved Scouting Program where camping MB was not required for Eagle? Etc.). The topic of this thread aside, scouting has already become an extended version of WB21. And I don't mean that as a compliment.

Stosh, well said. There is certainly a "halo-effect" given to this topic by liberals. Only goodness and light accompany their point of view. Those who express any doubt, hesitation, or disagreement, even in a measured and courteous manner, are labeled as bigots, narrow-minded, and uneducated. As you said, tyranny. This is what happens when a nation is ruled by sentiment rather than reason.

I attended Bartle 25+ years ago, and had the privilege of being selected to join Mic-O-say (as an adult scouter). Wonderful camp and the positive influence of Mic-O-say can be seen in the participation and heritage of the camp. Plus, the induction ceremony was better than any OA ceremony I'd seen before or previous. That said, there was alot of "I'm Mic-O-say and you aren't" attitudes throughout the camp. Scouters and scouts both seemed to relish needling non-Mic-O-say people. I'm not normally bothered by such things, but there was a steady stream of "we're in and you aren't." Perhaps this is what SpEd is referring to? Going to camp in other parts of the US, I've haven't seen any other fraternal influence. The OA will perform their duties at certain times, but they are pretty low key otherwise (I mean that in a good way).

When I was a scoutmaster, I sent one scout home early. We were camping at a state park, and scout verbally and physically assaulted a little girl at the public swimming area. The scout was 13. His conduct was bad enough for the girl's parents to contact a state trooper who happened to be on patrol in the park. After the trooper conducted his business, I told the scout to gather his stuff, he was going home. An ASM and I drove him back to his house, about an hour from where we were camping. I explained the situation to his parents. His dad nodded and said nothing, same with the scout. Scout's mother accused me of being unfair. I had briefed the scouts at the meeting before that they needed to conduct themselves in a scout-like manner, and that if they did anything that brought discredit on themselves and the troop, it would result in an early departure. This particular scout had a long history of anti-social and unscoutlike behavior. His dad knew the score, but mom refused to acknowledge her son's bad behavior, and always lashed back at the troop leadership (her Johnny was an angel, and we leaders were all uneducated, inefficient,, etc.). The scout decided not to come back to the troop. I can't recall how the legal situation was resolved, it's been a few years ago. Long story short, there are occasions when an early departure is warranted. It sends the right message to the scout who crossed the line, and the other scouts as well. They are watching the leaders' actions. Too lenient a decision, and they will lose respect for the leaders. After all, the vast majority of the scouts behave themselves. They'll wonder why leadership isn't putting their foot down with a scout who is always causing hate and discontent. Sure, the troublemaker needs scouting, comes from a troubled home, etc. I agree to a point. But it is not right when the scout's continually bad behavior detracts from his peer's scouting experience.

True.

If we believe some segments, we men are only good for moving heavy objects and killing spiders. Ironic that of all organizations, the BSA is being attacked. This crazy world needs scouting values more than ever.

This was my first impression as well.

I think there are many, many people that feel the same way!

I'd say sooner than five years. I'd also say, the sooner the better. There are many girls, like my daughter, that counted the days till they could join a Venture crew. She's been a member of an outdoor-oriented crew for awhile now, and could not be happier. Her previous girl scout career? She hasn't looked back.

Mash, I salute you, as you have certainly taken on a challenge. Just my personal experience, it seems that newsletters these days often go unread. Articles and commentaries must be short and to the point...attention spans are not what they used to be. The successful ones I've seen focus on people and events in the reader's world. Photos with captions, stories that talk about an individual's accomplishment and provide some personal background as well, a calendar of events, these thing seem to work. Cut/pasted news releases and other administrative notes that folks can read elsewhere and otherwise don't impact their immediate world--these seem to make people tune out. Best wishes.

The wafers would sell better than popcorn! The GSA: lol, if your GSA council is like the one my daughter was in, when I was a brownie co-leader, men were not very welcome. I was tolerated, at best. Yes, if the BSA had something like that going, there would be plenty of offended people who would reach out to the media, and the media would eagerly latch on and write up yet another story that made the BSA look bad.

Or, given the BSA's/GSA's current propensity for selling its camps to meet payroll, the Vatican Scouts might as well buy a few!

LOL!

Very true. Even if the spigot is on, it may be a drip instead of a flow. Also, I'd welcome your thoughts on this article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2014/07/09/the-coming-end-of-corporate-charity-and-how-companies-should-prepare/

Bad Wolf, I wish your friend and his colleagues all the best. My constant carping aside, I now understand the agony they must deal with every day. Was in similar situations myself in the military when it came to IT issues. You're right, I'm really not surprised...but what is the right word to describe the dawning realization PR was cut out of the coord process on such a historic speech? Whatever word I'm searching for, I'm sure the PR dept was searching for it too when they realized that Mr. Gates proceeded with drafting a such a speech and delivering it without their input. There might have been a few long moments of silence in the office as they digested what just happened.

Thanks Bad Wolf, most illuminating! I'm a little surprised that the BSA PR department was unaware that their National President was going to make a historic speech, one that announced a potentially controversial decision It wasn't an off-the-cuff deal, it looked well crafted when I read it. In a normal organization, someone in PR would have coordinated on a draft and offered suggestions/edits. Someone in PR should have been prepping press releases, getting ready for the requests for interviews, fielding comments from the public, pro and con. Sorry for the rambling, just thinking aloud. Well, I guess I should not be surprised.

Skeptic, I agree with this. However, the yellow press has been given engraved invitations by the BSA. They aren't going away now.