dan

Watching the new scouts come in all excited about being a boy scout, going camping, playing with fire. 10+ Watching the new scouts on the first few campouts struggle with just about everything, and after a few campouts they can setup camp and cook a good meal. 10+ Watching the older scouts (2 or 3 years as a scout) think they know it all, and mess things up, but will not listen to anyone. 5 Watching the same scouts a year or 2 later, and how much they have grown and matured. 10++++++ Going to the above scouts Eagle Court of Honor and they thank you for coming. 10+++++ Adults and the saying this is the way we do it. -1 Watching new adults being driven away by the old guard -1 Hiking through Double H Ranch with my son and 9 other scouts, watching my son get stronger each day, and me getting weaker each day! 10 Trying to train new leaders coming in and there role on campouts. 1 Yes, you are just a chaffer, sit down have a cup of coffee.

Same problem here, I have been told by the old guard that I need to count the stakes before the tents are put away, I just laughed. I suggested to the troop, if you want to help with this, assign tents to patrols and make the patrol responsible for there own gear, the old guard thought this was to much work. We do not purchase tent stakes, we pick up all of the election signs that are stuck in the ground along side of the roads, we pick them up after the election and use the metal in them for the stakes. I now vote for the candidate that uses the best metal for tent stakes!

Well this is all that I could find. The only U.S. president ever to "affirm" (and not "swear to") the oath of office was Franklin Pierce, 14th U.S. president, at his 1853 inauguration. Emotionally devastated after having witnessed the death of his young son in a train wreck, Pierce believed that his son's death was punishment for his sins. This may explain why he refrained from swearing on the Bible as he took the oath and chose simply to raise his right hand and affirm his commitment. Theodore Roosevelt was the only president who did not take the oath on a Bible. Mr. Ansley Wilcox, at whose home Roosevelt was sworn in, wrote in 1903, "According to my best recollection no Bible was used, but President Roosevelt was sworn in with uplifted hand."

not sure if you well have time to get them, but they are great kits. http://www.cubitems.com/

How about answering all of the questions I asked, I answered all of yours. Why bring Bob White into the thread, he never posted to this thread? Whats up with that?

WWBPD Not Climb on Safely booklet? Not unless the scouts are going to climb over 6 feet, but someone had better be trained. Not Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat guides? Not unless you are going swimming or Afloating. Not Youth Protection guide? Nope not needed Not the Accessibility Standards for Camp Facilities publication? Not unless you are running a Scout Camp. Not the Barrier-Free Tent Frame publication? You made this one up didn't you? If not please provide more info. I enjoy learning new things. I am only supposed to follow the Rules and Regulations according to my application agreement. The Methods may be good but I do not appear to be under any obligation to follow them as a result of signing the application. You really need to set down with your SM, that is a really scary question, coming from a leader. Don't see anything in my handbooks on gays in scouting? As a ASM you do not have any say about membership in the BSA. Why are the strict constructionist making it so difficult. B-P wants it to be jolly and simple. If leaders would have a little common sense and not think that jolly and simple meant that they where to have a good time abusing scouts and making sure they where safe, the BSA would not have to spell out all of the rules. So what do you want? The ability to change the program as you see fit? This is what has caused more and more rules. I really believe that you will see more and more rules, as long as leaders try to tweak the BSA program. So as you see all of these rules look in the mirror. (This message has been edited by dan)

WWBPD I see you are a ASM, the rules you need to follow are in the SM Handbook, Boy Scout Handbook, and the Guide to Safe Scouting. What else do you need and why? If you have questions about the rules ask your SM or Unit Commissioner. If so many leaders would not have thought BP was talking about them having fun and not the scouts then the BSA would not have needed all these rules.

WWBPD What rules do you want to see? The council Website policy? I am sure that BP had a grand plans for the World Wide Web! Summer Camp? I can get all of these that I require, with a simple email. The reason that the BSA has had to write all of these rules is because us adults could not follow the simple ones, like the AIMS and METHODS. Things like singing for lost items, pushups for punishments, hanging boys upside down to pin a badge on them. Turning BOR into retests. Failing SM conferences. If you want to place blame about all the rules look in the mirror or at NJCubscouter. (sorry had to get the lawyer joke in there)

Okay I know I should not but I will play! The rules I try to follow Aims and Methods of the Scouting Program The Scouting program has three specific objectives, commonly referred to as the "Aims of Scouting." They are character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. The methods by which the aims are achieved are listed below in random order to emphasize the equal importance of each.Ideals The ideals of Boy Scouting are spelled out in the Scout Oath, the Scout Law, the Scout motto, and the Scout slogan. The Boy Scout measures himself against these ideals and continually tries to improve. The goals are high, and as he reaches for them, he has some control over what and who he becomes. Patrols The patrol method gives Boy Scouts an experience in group living and participating citizenship. It places responsibility on young shoulders and teaches boys how to accept it. The patrol method allows Scouts to interact in small groups where members can easily relate to each other. These small groups determine troop activities through elected representatives. Outdoor Programs Boy Scouting is designed to take place outdoors. It is in the outdoor setting that Scouts share responsibilities and learn to live with one another. In the outdoors the skills and activities practiced at troop meetings come alive with purpose. Being close to nature helps Boy Scouts gain an appreciation for the beauty of the world around us. The outdoors is the laboratory in which Boy Scouts learn ecology and practice conservation of nature's resources. Advancement Boy Scouting provides a series of surmountable obstacles and steps in overcoming them through the advancement method. The Boy Scout plans his advancement and progresses at his own pace as he meets each challenge. The Boy Scout is rewarded for each achievement, which helps him gain self-confidence. The steps in the advancement system help a Boy Scout grow in self-reliance and in the ability to help others. Associations With Adults Boys learn a great deal by watching how adults conduct themselves. Scout leaders can be positive role models for the members of the troop. In many cases a Scoutmaster who is willing to listen to boys, encourage them, and take a sincere interest in them can make a profound difference in their lives. Personal Growth As Boy Scouts plan their activities and progress toward their goals, they experience personal growth. The Good Turn concept is a major part of the personal growth method of Boy Scouting. Boys grow as they participate in community service projects and do Good Turns for others. Probably no device is as successful in developing a basis for personal growth as the daily Good Turn. The religious emblems program also is a large part of the personal growth method. Frequent personal conferences with his Scoutmaster help each Boy Scout to determine his growth toward Scouting's aims. Leadership Development The Boy Scout program encourages boys to learn and practice leadership skills. Every Boy Scout has the opportunity to participate in both shared and total leadership situations. Understanding the concepts of leadership helps a boy accept the leadership role of others and guides him toward the citizenship aim of Scouting. Uniform The uniform makes the Boy Scout troop visible as a force for good and creates a positive youth image in the community. Boy Scouting is an action program, and wearing the uniform is an action that shows each Boy Scout's commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting. The uniform gives the Boy Scout identity in a world brotherhood of youth who believe in the same ideals. The uniform is practical attire for Boy Scout activities and provides a way for Boy Scouts to wear the badges that show what they have accomplished. Outdoor Activities Local councils operate and maintain Scout camps. The National Council operates high-adventure areas at Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico, the Northern Tier National High Adventure Program in Minnesota and Canada, and the Florida National High Adventure Sea Base in the Florida Keys. About 70 councils also operate high-adventure programs. I do not pick and choice which ones to follow. and these rules http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=xx&c=ds&terms=Guide+to+Safe+Scout&x=28&y=13 and the SM handbook and the Boy Scout Handbook(This message has been edited by dan)

What is the goal of a Eagle project, to become a sidewalk designer, a bench designer, become a draftsman? Or is it getting 15 people to show up for 6 hours and the scout guide the 15 people into getting the project done?

Den Flags do not come with numbers on them.

I just looked on line and the den flag is $8.80, without poles. Many years ago when I was a leader in cub scouts. The pack had den flags with numbers on them, they where used maybe once and thrown in the storage room, the number did not match the den after a year. The new leaders saw these and thought they where cool, so we bought new ones and give them to the den leaders, we did not pay the extra money to get the den number with, this way, they could be used by any wolf or bear den. In short the flags do not come with numbers. Hindsight being 20/20, having the dens make flags would have been pretty neato cool.

Doesn't the Librarian and Historian report to the ASPL? Shouldn't the SPL and SM be guiding the ASPL and the ASPL guiding the Librarian and Historian? Shouldn't the Chaplin Aid be working with the Chaplin?

I would bet if you looked at the charter it would read. CO = Friends of Camp Roy C. Manchester

Sounds to me like the troop guide was placed in the POR and no one told him what his job was, and no one followed up to make sure he was even doing the job until after the fact. The scout cannot improve on his job because he was never told that he was not doing it until he asks for rank advancement. I think I made one mistake in my post, the ASPL should not be included. The ASPL are responsible for other POR but not Troop Guide, that would be the SM, ASM of new scout patrol, and SPL.

Sounds to me from the little bit of info I have is that he did what was requested from him for the POR. Sounds like the troop leaders (SPL,ASPL, New scout patrol ASM) failed to do there job, and now you are placing the blame on the troop guide.

A word of caution, The opposite of right is left. or The opposite of Write is Draw. or Who know what scouts will come up with, there minds are quicker than mine. Just be prepared for answers that you are not expecting. It is a great SM minute, just be prepared to guide them to the correct, right, your answer.

Why not go to www.scouting.org use the council locater to see which council these scouts should be in? All you need is a Zip code. Or I am I missing something?

OGE Could you please keep us informed on how the mandatory training is going. From what I have seen and read, it does not seem that a council would not recharter a unit, for just about any reason. Wouldn't this cause enrollment to drop. Have you heard any rumbling about any units refusing to complete the training?

silver-shark I know what you mean. My sons troop is a troop that is growing, and they have tweaked the program also, not only have they tweaked advancements. They have also tweaked the selection process for POR! All positions are voted in except ASPL, the SPL selects the ASPLs (2). It was found that some scouts where not happy because the SPL did not pick them for a POR that they wanted or the SPL did not want to hurt anyone feelings, so they decided to have all POR except ASPL voted into office! 4 years ago this troop has 40 scouts today they are over 90! And they quit recruiting 2 years ago! It is good that we can tweak the program or not change it when the BSA changes, to work for us, is it not? I will have some more tweaks to share later! I bet you guys cannot wait! Biggest troop in the District! And Still growing!

Oh Yeah I forgot one thing, the reason the committee wants Star Scouts to do a leadership project is because the troop does not do a good job with helping, guiding the scouts with a POR, I have tried to do this, 3 times, I have meet with the SM, and showed him want I would do to help the SPL guide his staff, basically just giving the scout with the POR the POR responsibility out of the JLT troop training program and help them do the job, he okayed it, and I said I will need about 10 minutes at the PLC to get this started, he would call me a week before the PLC to say that he and the SPL have started this and I would not have to kick it off. Nothing has been done with this.

Almost everyone that has posted on this thread has said that it is okay to tweak the BSA program. I give an example of a tweak to the program. And everyone said the troop cannot do this, Well yes they can and have, just like troops that tell a scout which patrol he will be in. If I go by most of the other posters here, I will just say that the rule not to change advancement is only a suggestion on how to run the program. I wish I had the little booklet number 33088D to read, but I do not, I am sure I could find a loophole, just like troops that have that change other parts of the program. If you guys can tweak the Patrol method, than other troops can tweak Ideals, Outdoor Programs, Advancement, Associations with Adults, Personal Growth, Leadership Development, Uniform. If you have tweaked the program, you should not cast stones at other units that have tweaked it. What I have gotten out of this thread is that most posters on this thread do not believe it when the BSA says. The methods by which the aims are achieved are listed below in random order to emphasize the equal importance of each. I posted this early in this discussion, but as usual it was ignored. Most posters here are putting some methods over other ones, if you do that you are not following the BSA program, DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS? In case you could not read between the lines I do not agree with the troops requirement. I was really questioning this with the troop. At this time the troop just wants me to go away, because I am questioning the addition to a requirement. Well one thing you can say for this troop is that if you have earned Eagle in this troop, you have really earned it, I think about 1 percent of the scouts that join this troop become Eagle. Zahnada A tip for you, if things do not go your way do not run away, it is not very scout like. Grumpy I do believe you added nothing to this discussion. If only I knew what I know now when my son joined this troop!

Hunt said the person who keeps track of advancement for your troop should certainly have a copy of the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures But I asked why a SM or ASM would have this book?!?! Seems like this info should be in the SM handbook.

Oldgreyeagle You said Now Dan, I and Ed never said we were doing away with patrols as a method of scouting and I dont see anywhere that Ed or I said that we would eliminate Patrols or change their structure of having members who elect a patrol leader and the patrol leader selects an assistant All I said was tweaking the patrol method, how in the world did you get to this point? Is that what you think a tweak is? Not having New Scout Patrols seem like a huge tweak to me. Sorry but I see no difference in tweaking advancements and tweaking the patrols. Once again I ask, are you picking and choosing the methods to follow and which ones you can change. Seems to me that you are putting some methods above the others. According to the BSA website The methods by which the aims are achieved are listed below in random order to emphasize the equal importance of each. I say the troop only tweaked the advancement requirement, they did not add anything that was not in the book. Why would a SM or ASM have this book? BSA publication #33088D titled Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures 2002.

EagleInKY Once again where would I find this policy (i.e. advancement requirements). You are the 3rd person in this thread to talk about this policy. I do not believe there is a policy. It looks like you are saying it is okay to change the Patrol method and the Leadership Development Method, but not the Advancement Method?