dan

Kudu I love to read about scouting history, I hope that the BSA has learned from the past and not ignored it. Reading your questions on NYLT, the answers to almost all of your questions is yes. I would like to do a spin off to answer your questions if you and johndaigler do not object. And if anyone else is interested. I was the course director for NYLT last year I do know a bit about it.

My guess is that they are using dehydrated food and it comes in 2 person servings. I did not say rather this is a good idea or not, but that is the only thing I could think of. When going to Philmont lunches and breakfast are packed for 2.

johndaigler Since you cannot show me where I slammed kudu, I am going to assume you could not find one I feel that you are singling me out on this issue. So know I feel I am picking attacked on this! Just using your logic! I understand that you do not feel that scouter's should have to follow the BSA program and I feel that they should. I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. It just amazes me that you do not want people to be challenged for not following the GTSS or the BSA program.

johndaigler I am still confused!? Where did I attack kudu, or anyone on this thread? he writes that I am remaining ignorant and he rejects my thoughts, but I cannot rejects his?!?, and I am the attacker? Please copy and paste what you think is an attack? So I can better understand where you are coming from. I thought this forum was to help understand todays BSA program, not to talk about the good old days. I believe that there is a forum for Scouting History where all administrators should move his post to. Kudu is spreading false information and trying to get people to believe it is how the BSA wants the program to be ran. I think that I have done a good job of showing that he does not follow the Scout Oath or the GTSS. Is this what the administrators of this forum wants the readers of this forum to believe is the correct way to run the BSA program?

You seem to believe that there is some sort of virtue in remaining ignorant of the 94 years of effort that has gone into the BSA program You do not know that I am ignorant on the BSA program past or present that is just an emotional reaction on your part again. And you want to ignore the future, if you wish to live in the past thats fine, but why do you try to sell it as the current BSA program? That is nice as far as it goes, but some dedicated Scouters would rather go the extra mile. So you consider that breaking rules or ignoring guidelines, is going the extra mile, I am starting to understand you a bit more. I have worked with others in developing an alternative national Scouting program, but this topic is about starting BSA Troops, not alternative Troops. For what I consider to be the best program based on Baden-Powell rather than William Hillcourt, see the BPSA-USA: Than why in wide world of sports do you posts your alternates when posters ask about a BSA Boy Scout troop? In your mind do you think they are asking about the Kudu troop? You seem to believe that Hillcourt's "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol" and "Junior Leader Training (JLT)" are somehow incompatible. They are not. The Green Bar Patrol teaches Scouts how to run a real Patrol using the example of the Scoutmaster. JLT teaches abstract leadership skills. No I believe that the JLT program is a really good program, include NYLT and it becomes a great program, without having to put little twist in it. Adults trying to show scouts how to be kids has never worked and will never work. I know that scouts will follow other scouts a lot more than adults. When scouts are allowed to show, teach scouts you will get a lot more. You get scouts that learn how to lead like scouts not like adults. Times have changed scouts are different now, kids are smarter, and more knowledgeable, the old ways will not keep them interested, as in business you either change or fold. That is simply an emotional reaction on your part. Exactly what rules have I disobeyed? Besides the Scout Oath? I am not sure. I cannot believe I had to spell this out to you, it was stated in the last post. Do you follow the GTSS or do you believe that the old ways are better? johndaigler Are you saying he can take the post off topic about kudu scouts, but we cannot pull it back to the BSA program? I do not understand?(This message has been edited by dan)

kudu Believe it or not I agree with you! The world has changed a little bit since William Hillcourt was involved with boys in scouting. It seems that you want to pick and choose which parts of the old and new parts of the program you want to use, just as I and many others, I think, would like to do. But since I am in the BSA I will follow the program, as they want it done. If I felt like you did, I would not be in the BSA. I have enough integrity to either follow the program or leave or start my own. Yes I know you will say something that I am just a follower of stupid rules. Which may be true but I will follow the rules or leave or try to change the rules in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them. In my Opinion you are trying to change the BSA in a disorderly way and disobeying rules, to fit your needs.

I wrote early This topic seems a little mild for this forum. At his time I would like to say never mind. A person or two going off the trail or picking a few flowers or stepping on plants, proably is not going to upset the system, but we do not have a couple of people in the wilderness, there is thousands in yellowstone we are talking millions, now what if those thousands/millons of people pick flowers and make trails all over the wilderness? Does anyone know why more trails are not considered good for the wilderness? Why are animal trails considered better for the wilderness than human trails?

you are mistaken (wish we had roll eyes icon) but being a minor his name was not printed in the paper

If you see a troop that the Adult leaders are appointing the SPL or/and ASPL, Guides, Instructors, etc. run to another troop. If you see a troop that elects all postions run to another troop. If you see a troop that is not utilizing JLT the lastest BSA version at least yearly run to another troop. If you see a troop that bashes the BSA and only talks about the good old days run to another troop.

Lisabob This thread should explain OGE idea to you. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=80306#id_80306 This thought has came up in many other threads, you may want to do a search for certified if you want to see where else in these forums this has been discussed. Do not take this post as me agreeing of disagreeing with this idea, I am only giving you the info.

When you have looked at all troops within your comfortable driving distance and they are not following the BSA program and are not willing to change. The real issue is how does a scout, parent, den leader really know what is the proper way a troop should be run? I thought I knew when my son joined a troop; I did not have a clue. When I was a scout, the troop I was in did not follow the program, I learned a little from this forum, but not enough fast enough. I see many issues brought up here and with new parents about the parents not getting enough information to satisfy them, this is not a reason to start a new troop. Communication should be coming from the scouts to the parents. I have been involved with a troop that has some different ideas about the BSA program. Some things they do they know they are not following the program, but they know their way is better than the BSA program, some things they just do not understand how the program is suppose to work. I have been able to make a few changes, not as much as I would have liked, and now my son is 16 years old and did not get what he could of out of scouts, if the troop would have followed more of the BSA program. After I learned what is what, I see that this troop is not really that much different than many other troops. The troop is not perfect but having looked at other troops in the area, they are the best around the area. There has been a few discussions here about how long it would take to change a troop, that is willing to be changed, most posters say about 4 to 5 years, in that time frame you son would be wrapping up his Boy Scout career, seems like a waste of time to me. Yes I am in Scouts for my son, not me. Hindsight being 20/20 I would have started a new troop, or most likely restarted a troop that was dissolved the year my son joined Boy Scouts. My biggest issue with starting a troop was having a CO that I was willing to work for.

I cheat on the fluffing up the grass where your tent was pitched. I have tried to do this and watched others do this. After doing this I see the grass ripped out of the ground or broken off. It seems to me that it is better to let the grass come back on its own, rather than trying to fluff it up, so that the next hikers cannot see where you tent was pitched. This topic seems a little mild for this forum.

I do not believe that you will find written rules for any of you scenarios, but rather guides on how it should be done. I can see where small troops could have youth holding multi positions, but these are not elected positions. They should be selected for the positions by the SPL. This allows the SPL to build his team which to run the troop with. I THINK that any scouter can hold multi positions just not in the same unit. Many scouters say they hold multi positions in a unit, but they do not, they may do multi jobs, but they are not registered in 2 positions.

As you can see from the picture I wore the old uniform and know the new one, if I was going on a hike, I would prefer to wear/pack/carry the new uniform than the old one, the old one even though it did wear well, it was very heavy cotton, I remember that thing getting wet! It took forever to dry! The new poly cotton blend is lighter and drys faster. When I was in scouts, the uniform was wore on every outing, campout, when did this change? It seem it was about 1970 if my memory serves me correctly. I do purchase my uniforms at least one size larger than I need, this seems to help with the wearing out factor. Oh yeah back to the topic! Some people say that they would support it but just replace it with a troop uniform, does this really support no uniform? I would support the no uniform! Than I could wear my camo tank top, and cut off blue jeans to meetings and campouts, along with black socks and sandals!

I loved Double H also, it was a great trek. I enjoyed it more than Philmont. Can you find me in the Double H pictures, based on the how I looked in 68? I should really get the Philmont pictures up there! BTW I am the good looking one in the picture My brother and I almost look like twins now. At the time of that picture I was 13. I am the tall one, now my brother is taller than me. I need to spend a little more time scanning that photo, make it a little bigger. You can see in the picture that the shirts are collar less. In the background the dining fly and the tent looks just like the BSA tents today! At my sisters over the holidays and found this picture. There is one other picture of me when I was a Explorer standing next to our airplane still looking for that one!

When did the uniform become a PARLOUR only uniform. You may want to look at my post in Scouting History forum before answering.

Just write the requirement in the book, not have the scout purchase a new book. As of last year I was dong this with the swimming requirments, that changed many years ago. My son has done many merit badges with an old book and the new requirements printed off of the www. I do not see how this should cost a scout anymore money. (This message has been edited by dan)

http://groups.msn.com/BoyScouts/doublehexp714bb.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=1249

No down time? Yep, just like it was done at wood badge. Oh wait we would not want to use what was learned duing the training would we! I forgot we need to tweak everything.

I am not a fan of summer camps. The PLC spends more time planning a 2 hour meeting or a weekend campout than a weeklong summer camp. An adult calls for the reservations and the scouts just show up. No planning, no appointing tasks for the instructors, no nothing, just show up and work on merit badges. Watercub I think it would be great idea for the PLC to plan out tasks, games, and patrol meetings, during summer camp. During wood badge we had some down time (at least the 2nd weekend) BUT it was called a planing meeting or patrol meetings. I would like to see my sons troop do a lot more planning, I think that during a weekened campout the entire weekend should be planned out, no need to leave free time. The same could be done for summer camp, but it would be alot harder with all of the scouts doing merit badges at different times. Building on Eagle97_78 ideas, the PLC could write up a bulliten board that shows all of the camps activies and have the scouts sign up for them, and go as a patrol.

I have seen The Charge given by brothers, friends, uncles, and SM. I think it should be given by someone the Eagle chooses. Most include the charge in their own words, but the core is not changed very much. I see the Charge as telling the scout now that he is an Eagle he has a higher path to follow. I think it should be included in the ceremony, but if the eagle does not have an eagle scout that he respects, I could see not doing during the ceremony. It is my understanding that only another Eagle can give the charge.

Three fires council also has camps in Rochelle, and Elgin Illinois. They have day camp at camp Big Timber in Elgin, which may interfer with your plans. The camp in Rochelle is about a 11 to 12 hour drive to Ely. It is close to I39. No summer camp at that camp. When we go up to the BWCA as a family we stay at the Hotel 95 and campground in Hixton Wisc. I have not been there for 6 years (been doing high adventures in place of family vacations.) It is an old motel and campground but it was clean and quiet. The number is 715-963-4311 I have never seen anybody stay at the campground. The campground has a few old trailers parked there and a few slots to pull in a trailer, they may have tent sites in the back. When I went to the BWCA with the troop we stayed in a hotel in Eau Claire, it was pretty cheap, I do not remember the name of the hotel though. It was like a Hotel 6 which there are many motels like that in Eau Claire. There is an Air force base South of Hixton just off of I90. I would stay away from Devils Lake, it is usually packed all summer. Any idea about where you would like to stop? may give us some more ideas.

Bruce Beore I answer, who is the CO of the troop?

EagleWB CNYScouter answered your questions directed at me better than I could answer it in this thread. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=118337

SemperParatus The word I should have used is disheartened in place of disliked. I did not mean to include scouts in my post only scouters. If I see a scout without a uniform. I think that he is from a troop that does not have the adult leadership to utilize all 8 methods correctly. Thank You evmori Since you fly the flag, it means to me that you are proud to be an American and want to let others know that you are proud of being an American. Is your neighbor proud to be an American? Is he an American? He maybe but you would have to ask him, if he was flying the flag, you would have a pretty good idea before you talked to him. Kudu No one is stuck with the uniform, and who is this we you are talking about?