acco40

The CC & SM only have one simple decision to make - inform the CO. After that, it is the CO's decision. That said, IMHO, if the guy in question if a committee member why on Earth remove him? If a SA, I still would be hesitant to remove him just on the incident stated. A few years ago a Scout in our troop had parents who had restraining orders against each other. I had to monitor who could and who could not pick up the Scout on certain days. Not one of my fonder memories.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Bear12 - does your son wish to have an Eagle Court of Honor? Or, should I say did he wish to have an ECOH before the aforementioned incident took place? This year, we had two boys earn the Eagle rank in February, had a "regular" COH in March and an ECOH for them in June. They picked the date of their ECOH. At the regular COH, we did not formally recognize them in any way. Now the question comes up sometime of when can the boy wear an Eagle badge? Well, I think he may wear it as soon as he has completed the Eagle BOR and the national council has verified everything is in order and has notified the Scout's Scoutmaster (assuming the Scout is still under 18 years of age).(This message has been edited by acco40)

At Jambo they don't encourage Scout's Own, oops, interfaith worship services, but instead have it set up so that numerous faiths (LDS, Jewish, Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Methodists, etc.) hold services and the Scouts and Scouters get a smorgasbord of choices. It never fails with 12 - 17 year old boys doing the choosing and old fart Scouters doing the planning but the mainstream faiths get much less than expected and the "interesting" faiths get overwhelmed. For example, they had about four different Catholic sites for worship and only one Zen Buddist. The Zen Buddist site was overflowing with interested Scouts.

Roundtable staff/support are commissioners. They are part of the commissioner staff. Therefore, the wreath. Now, they are not Unit Commissioners, nor are they District Commissioners or Assistant District Commissioners. A Commissioner is a friend, representative, doctor, teacher and counselor.

Argh!!! Woodbadge irks me almost as much as Weblos.

Eamonn - you left out one other nationality - Iraqis. As for the media - we get what we pay for. (CNN) A teenager described as a Boy Scout saved Maldivian President Maumoon Abdul Gayoom from a knife attack Tuesday, a presidential spokesman said. The assailant "aimed at the president from about 10 feet away, but another young boy -- about 15 years old -- maybe one feet away jumped to prevent him," spokesman Mohamed Shareef said. The boy "came in the way and grabbed the knife," Shareef told The Associated Press. "One brave boy saved the president's life." The attacker's knife was wrapped in a national flag, Shareef said. "The knife touched the president's shirt but not his body," he said. The teen, whose name was given as Jaisham, is a Boy Scout, Shareef told AP. Jaisham received a hand wound and was flown to the capital of Male for treatment because he could not move some of his fingers, Shareef told AP. Gayoom was unhurt, Shareef said. The Maldives is a nation of islands in the Indian Ocean, southwest of India. The president was visiting one of those islands, Hoarafushi, to inaugurate an energy project, Shareef said. Police arrested the attacker, he said. yeah, darn media never covers Scouts. With so many media sources now - home town weekly papers, large city daily papers, internet, cable, podcasts, TV, magazines, talk radio - the list goes on and on - one can find "news" to substantiate almost any point of view.

As Lisa stated, Michigan felt that Iowa and New Hampshire shouldn't determine our future president so they moved up their primary date. Well, the Democratic (national) party wasn't amused and had sort of a gentlemen's (and Hillary) agreement to ignore it. So, Michigan shot itself in the foot once more.

In all of the depictions that I've seen, Jesus was more on the anorexic side than overweight. :-)

Huh? Was your post in reference to mine?

Okay, now I feel like I'm being tested! I find it helpful to always look carefully at the actual requirement and to be familiar to what is in The Boy Scout Handbook because this is what the Scout should use as a resource. So for 1st class 8b Demonstrate bandages for a sprained ankle. and for injuries on the head, the upper arm, and the collarbone. 1. Demonstrate a head bandage or collarbone sling usin' materials partially pre-tied by the last person, with someone givin' hints/talkin' him through it. 2. Put on a head bandage or collarbone sling from scratch; might not be quite tight enough so that it would probably fall off after a 5-10 minutes but it's good enough (or gets removed after a minute so no one knows). 3. Responds to a scenario that involves a head wound or collarbone fracture, accomplishes the diagnosis and treatment on his own during the scenario. Makes a fine bandage using improvised or troop first aid kit materials rather than specialty gear. First, let me tell you what a typical scenario is like based on my 5 plus years as a SM. A Scout will approach me and ask for me to sign this off because he knows how to do it and starts explaining how to me. I say thats great but I can't sign-off because the requirement states that you need to demonstrate. The Scout groans and asks about materials. I'll say well what do you think we should use and then may playfully bang my head against the wall and shout, oh no, my head is bleeding and watch his reponse. The Scout will then use either his (or my larger) neckerchief or other appropriate material to tie an "Aunt Jemimah" bandage on my head. Depending on his skill level I'll either state good job or go into teaching / mentoring mode. So, I guess I'm more like a #2. I certainly would not require him to treat a real injury but I would require him to be able to do it on his own at least once, in a fairly sufficient manner without coaching. Successfully complete the BSA swimmer test - Jump feet first into water over your head in depth. Swim 75 yards in a strong manner using one or more of the following strokes: sidestroke, breaststroke, trudgen, or crawl; then swim 25 yards using an easy, resting backstroke. The 100 yards must be swum continuously and include at least one sharp turn. After completing the swim, rest by floating. 1. Swam 75 yards usin' doggy paddle/head up crawl (might have grabbed pool edge briefly after each 25 yards); struggled through 25 yards of backstroke and float. Barely made it, but tried real hard. 2. 75 yards of flailing forward stroke that was better than dog paddle but exhausting (without grabbin' pool edge). Float and backstroke were OK but not really restful. 3. 75 yards of solid crawl or breast stroke that left a boy tired but more than able to continue swimming; 25 yards of good elementary backstroke and float that let him rest well so he could continue swimmin' strongly. I would not count #1 because it was not in a "strong manner". #2 I may count if I thought the "flailing forward stroke" was a crawl or trudgen like stroke and the backstroke and float were at least somewhat restful. The intent is not how well he does the backstroke but that the Scout "clearly allows the swimmer to rest and regain wind." 9a Tell what precautions must be taken for a safe trip afloat. 1. Recite the 9 points of Safety Afloat from a Safety Afloat Card or from memory (with a few prompts/hints). 2. Recite the 9 points of Safety Afloat and describe 'em, using a Safety Afloat Card. 3. Put together a plan for a patrol or troop float trip (which incorporates da Safety Afloat issues "in context" as part of the plan). Although the requirement does not specifically state memorize what I do is have the boy read me the nine precautions and make sure he understands what it means and then we close the book and see if he can state the nine from memory. If not, we repeat the read and try again. Most get it after two or three tries. So again, maybe something like #2 but I don't let them use a Safety Afloat card.

Some individuals and churches (lower case) are not to friendly with "Scout's own" type services because: 1) No $$ come in to the church 2) No "recognition" from fellow parishioners/congregationists/neighbors 3) Control issues 4) Effort may be involved. :-)

Goes to show you that if you are not "for" ethanol, you'll never have a chance to get elected US President. As one late night comedian stated, if the first primary was held in Vermont, the candidates would be pro-maple syrup as the new savior energy source. scoutldr - We live a country that essentially has a two party system. I like McCain, however, he does not endear himself to the Republicans that control the party. Therefore, his chances of getting elected are greatly reduced.

All - I put in the post about "Piss Christ" because in the earlier posts there were many who seemed to think "symbols" were something that shouldn't make others get upset. While I agree that our litigious society has unfortunately gotten very thin skinned, a symbol that may generate a blas response to some may evoke a heated passion in others. Here is my own personal story. I was raised, somewhat informally, as a Presbyterian. Yeah, I went to church a few times but not very often. In my teenage years I moved to St. Louis which has a large Catholic community. I remember going to a Catholic hospital to visit a friend. Above each bed was a crucifix about foot tall. To a 16 year old, hospitals were uncomfortable enough without seeing some dead guy nailed to a cross, with blood dripping on his forehead from a crown of thorns and a nasty gash on his rib cage in each room. It gave me the willies. To my girlfriend at the time (an Italian Catholic) that symbol was very comforting and reminded her of God's love for mankind. Symbols are very powerful and we should not make light of it when they are used. I'm a big Mizzou Tiger fan. The Tiger/Jayhawk rivalry to some is just that - a spirited collegiate rivalry similar to Michigan/Ohio State, Alabama/Auburn, USC/UCLA, etc. That is what it means to me. But to others it is something more. Lawrence Kansas was burned to the ground. Missouri residents were murdered and raped. John Brown, William Quantrill, etc. It goes back to the 1850s and 1860s - way before college football existed. The events were too traumatic for the people living in both states not to have some of that residue left over. I don't think there was any place in the country like this. There was no moral code, and in some cases, no forgiveness to this day. A year or so ago, a Missouri man whose great, great grandfather had been murdered on his farm, apparently by a Kansan was relating his story and stated 'and we think we know who did it' noting that the suspected descendants lived just miles away. A Jayhawk to this individual is not just a University symbol. As Grandpa Simpson said in response to his daughter-in-law Marge's statement that "There are only 49 stars on that flag." "I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!" (This message has been edited by acco40)

Is the idea of the district patch (right or wrong) that it takes the place of the council patch? For Jambo, our council issued unique (per troop) council patches. Also, they have council patches with district names (only one district name per patch) on them. Hey MVScouter - the 2005 Chief Scout Executive National Jamboree patch isn't that rare. I have two (one signed by the BSA President), I gave my wife another and one of my sons picked one up too.(This message has been edited by acco40)

I view the Eagle SM conference as quite a bit different as the other SM conferences for rank. In it we (Eagle candidate and myself the Scoutmaster) go over the Eagle application and we review his Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project write-up. I've seen in some literature (not sure of the source) that "only the Scoutmaster may hold Eagle Scoutmaster Conferences" but not sure of its validity. Personally, I feel it is important for the Scoutmaster to give the Scoutmaster Conference for the Scout badge and Tenderfoot because it is important the SM gets to know the Scout as soon as possible and vice versa - the Scout should get to know the SM. Bottom line - the SM "owns" the advancement program in the unit and therefore "sets the rules" always within the boundaries of the BSA of course.

Heavy handed moderator here - I goofed. epalmer had a duplicate post and I tried to delete one just for clean-up and alas, both got deleted. Nothing offensive in his post. Sorry. :-(

Hey, why did so many get their undies in a knot when Government funds were used to support an artistic depiction of cross (or was it a crucifix?) in a jar of urine made by a gay artist? It's just a symbol?

Not trying to sound arrogant but maybe the moderator(s) do not want feedback.

In response to Beavah's request of which sign-off expectation was used: 1. Planned a weekend's meals with a fair bit of help and/or went very simple: oatmeal breakfast, sandwiches lunch, hobo dinner. 2. Planned a reasonable weekend's meals with little help, but mostly copied previous month's meal plan. 3. Planned a weekend's meals multiple times until becoming pretty good at it, then demonstrated a complete, healthy meal plan with zero help. Well I wasn't involved in signing off any of my sons requirements but I can tell you what I require. First, what is the requirement? Requirement #4a for 1st Class is: 4a) Help plan a patrol menu for one campout that includes at least one breakfast, one lunch, and one dinner and that requires cooking at least two meals. Tell how the menu includes the foods from the food pyramid and meets nutritional needs. Not to sound like a broken record but I neither add or subtract to the requirements. The requirements don't state "gourmet" meals nor do they require "do the planning all on your own", nor do they require multiple times for sign-offs. It does however state a patrol meal (not individual or troop), help plan, "tell", "explain", "serve", "supervise", etc. So I make sure that they do just that. So yes, if they helped plan a patrol menu of oatmeal and juice for breakfast, sandwiches plus something else for lunch and a simple dinner and told me about the nutritional value and was familiar with the food pyramid (let's see - helped plan, check, requires cooking at least two meals, check, "tell", check) then yes, I would say #1. Now, I would probably ask how he helped, how was the menu chosen/agreed upon, did you write it down, what could possibly make it more appetizing and nutritious, etc. So now that he has done this once he will have novice skills. Will he ever repeat this task again? Of course, he will attend many outings and have to plan patrol meals and each time he does his proficiency will increase (especially if his leaders challenge his creativity, skill levels and don't revert to "easiest clean-up" method all the time).

Okay, as Tim Allen would say - let's back up the truck. IMHO, the BSA is not trying to rush anyone, water down requirements or anything else. Yes, a component (a large component) of the BSA is business oriented and feels that FCFY makes for larger enrollment i.e. less attrition. I tink that yes, those who make FCFY are statistically more likely to remain in the program but I'm not sure that it is a cause and effect relationship. I think what the BSA is really trying to "force" is that troops should provide the opportunities for well motivated Scouts to earn 1st Class in their first year - and I agree with that stance. Heck, if you really analyze the requirements, it is very easily done. My son made FCFY before I even became involved in the troop, within about 9 months. He didn't participate in any Pathfinder (T, 2nd, 1st Class type instruction) at summer camp either. What he did was attend the troop meetings, the outings and with my help did stuff at home (like the Tenderfoot physical fitness stuff). As Scoutmaster, I now see a few Scouts make FCFY and many take 3 to 4 years! It all depends on the support they get in the troop, at home and most importantly, motivation from within themselves. I'm sure we've all seen the opposite effect of FCFY. Crusty SMs who feel that no 13 year old should be an Eagle Scout, boys don't have maturity to be 1st Class Scouts until at least 12 or 13, etc. I'm confused by those who talk about the "responsibility" of rank wrt FCFY. What responsibility or leadership is needed for 1st Class? I think most of us are guilty of having low expectations from our youth today. Set the bar high.

Forget a driver's license. How many have boy's in their troop whose sole purpose is to "get Eagle?" We've had four boys earn Eagle this year in our troop. I'm somewhat ashamed to say that for three of them, earning that rank was the sole purpose they were in Scouting. I've told parents (I'm not a smooth talker) that I feel my responsibility/goal as a Scoutmaster is to teach their son's leadership skills and character - not to have them earn the Eagle rank. There is a subtle difference that many parents and Scouters don't quite grasp. I try to promote NYLT and it falls on deaf ears for most parents. However, the Trail to Eagle program perks up their ears!(This message has been edited by acco40)

I think you should have sat on his BOR. I'm a Scoutmaster, I don't pick and choose who I give SM conferences to. Part of the responsibility of a committee member is to sit on BORs. I don't believe you should participate only on BORs that you "enjoy doing so." I'm not interested personally, but the reason you dislike the Scout is germain to the problem. As such I agree with Beavah's response Now, if the case is really that the boy is not living the Scout Oath and Law, and other leaders are seein' that too, then you might have been exactly the right person to sit on the board, because you'd be more likely to be blunt and honest, eh? And boys need that sometimes. So I think yeh at least need to give the CC a reason..

Oak Tree - that would be "reff pocket."

During the centennial (2010) the BSA will also hold the National Jamboree. Traditionally, the BSA has put together a band consisting of Scouts (14 and up?) to play for dignitaries, special events, jambo itself, etc. Possibly use this band for the Rose Bowl parade? If so, the question of expenses comes up. Should band members pay for their trip (a la Jambo) or should the BSA foot the bill?

To answer your question - The Scoutmaster Handbook. Requirements are be at least 21 years of age, be an American Citizen, agree to live by the Scout Oath & Law and be approved by the CO. There is no "go camping with the Scouts" requirements. However, one should be willing to be a role model (difficult if one is not present) and be willing to teach boys to be leaders. I admit it, I'm biased for SMs I am one. :-) I used to get a little testy when parents always (after refusing to voluteer to do anything) try to tell me how I should do something. Most have no idea or concept of the BSA program. I don't let it bother me any more. (This message has been edited by acco40)