acco40

I heard on the radio (NPR - just slightly more "true" than reading something on the internet) that almost 100% of African-Americans in the United States are of mixed race. Very few have "pure" African lineage. However, because of our past prejidices, most Americans perceive anyone who is biracial as "black" or "Asian" or whatever. I've always wondered if I someone listed themselves as African-American on a college application (for schools that use affirmative action) what criteria is used to judge someone's race. I'm not aware of any famous relatives. However, I had a grandfather who had a write-up about himself in Reader's Digest portraying his great accounting skills for the city of Saginaw. That was in the 50's.

Most Presidential candidates choose a running mate to garner votes. If Obama did choose a female other than Hillary, he would likely loose her supporters. If he did choose Hillary, he would alienate many. If he chose a black male, he would risk the loss of votes by voters who may think the ticket "too black." So, what did he do? Pick a white male who has perceived expertise in an area where Obama is perceived to be weak - foreign policy. I'll say one thing, Obama is sure driven. If elected, it will be the first time I would be older than the President of the United States.

I wish your son the best!

So, if I'm understanding your post correctly, you believe that that if a Scout is dual registered, he may get all of his Boy Scout advancement signed off via the Crew leadership or all by the troop leadership or some combination of the two.

Bob, I don't dispute what you said but I'm a little gun shy about signing off on requirements that I have no idea about. If a Scout is dual registered and wants to have his time as a Crew Treasurer, for example, be used for his POR for Life Rank who signs off? A leader of the troop or of the Crew?

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Lisabob, I didn't explain myself very well on the advancement topic. My concerns are that the Venture Crew would be signing off on Boy Scout PORs for Star, Life and Eagle. Can anyone share light on how this works?

This is not a rhetorical question for me. It may have been a national sale, but I know for a fact that our local scout shop had switchback pants on sale for 50% off a few months ago. I knew that the new uniform was just around the corner, not sure if most others did however. Anyway, I bought myself and my second son a new pair. FWIW, on this weekends outing, the first Scout in our troop showed up in the new uniform.

Ooooh, such anger. Let's see, in my "rich white suburb" my next door neighbors are from Iraq. Across the street, they are from Romania. My daughters best friend has a mother who is African-American and a Jamaican father. Our troop has Asians, Asian Indians, Blacks, whites and Arabs. I have not inquired about income so I can't make a judgment on "rich" although I wouldn't put myself in that category. Come on basement dweller, get out more!

Two adults in our troop have recently butted heads with me (Scoutmaster) on various issues. The committee chair and I are on the same page and I don't let the issues they bring up bother me. Well, they now want to start a Venture Crew and I essentially said "go for it" but as for myself, I'm already involved enough in Scouting so don't include me as an advisor. Well, it has been over a year since they said they were going to start up a crew and still no concrete action on their part. Last week they addressed the committee (I was not present) and a couple of things irked me. They wanted to meet the same time the Troop met so the boys who want to dual register won't have to add another meeting night. They also wanted to share the current existing troop equipment. Also, they had not yet talked to the IH or COR about their desires. They are even contemplating a different CO (but meet in the same place!) I've kept quiet but I'm going to share the following concerns with the CC. 1) I prefer that the Venture Crew meet on a different evening. The Crew and the Troop are two different units and if a Scout wants to belong to both that's fine, but don't combine the meetings. 2) Equipment was bought and paid for by the troop. Yes, the troop doesn't own it, the CO does, I know that. 3) The potential Venture crew advisor (adult) stated to the parents (one of which was my wife) that advancement will count for both. How, as a Scoutmaster not involved in the crew, would I be able to sign off on a POR (president, vice president, secretary, treasurer, etc.) for the Crew? I know it is allowed but from a practical standpoint does anyone have pointers in this area? Also, does anyone have any general advice on other issues that may arise when a Venture Crew is started?

This is an all too familiar process with this forum. A poster asks a question, an educated response is given, some call the response "bookish", "pompous" or other such things because they don't agree with it and then the fur flies. One should not wear any BSA sash on one's belt. One should not wear an OA sash unless it is an OA event. Now, I attended a Webelos Crossover ceremony where some of the Webelos scouts were crossing over into our troop and some to another. I attended as a "receiving" Scoutmaster. The Scouts from the other Boy Scout Troop all wore their OA sashes on their shoulders and their merit badge sashes folded on their belt. Of course, I said nothing to them. It was probably a troop tradition or following some instruction an adult gave them. Regardless, it is incorrect. Some individuals, like myself, are very conscious of proper uniforming. Numerous times, I've been asked about the correct way to wear a patch for example and when I give to be what I perceive to be the correct answer I'm chided because the asker doesn't agree with it. At a recent Eagle COH, three Scouts, one 18, two 19, wore their uniform with their Eagle rank badge. When asked, I said, no, that was improper uniforming. As adults, they should not wear patches indicating rank. I was told that was stupid, the kids should be proud to wear their Eagle badge. I explained the Eagle knot but still, no desire to comply. Even my son is guilty. When he earned the Paul Bunyan award he was proud. He asked me where it went on his uniform. I stated that it didn't go on his uniform but could go on his backpack, troop jacket, etc. Well, he saw another scout from another troop wear it above his left pocket so voila, he put it there too. We forget that these kids emulate what they see. Why not, as adults, try to let them see the correct uniform instead of what we want.(This message has been edited by acco40)

The BSA is somewhat confusing in its literature. Some references don't even use the term "voting" - as a decision making process but then some state that the Scoutmaster "gets no vote" wrt committee decisions. I agree with BW on what the BSA process states but in reality, what rarely happens is that Committee Chair is selected by the Institutional Head and/or the Charter Organization Representative. What usually happens in that the adult members choose a CC (some by voting, some by consensus, some by other means) and then the unit presents that choice to the COR/IH who then approves (or in rare cases disapproves). Regardless, the CC choice is critical.

He may display his OA sash as well as his red vest from Cub Scouts and all other types of stuff. Why would anyone wear an OA sash to a non-OA event? I don't wear my Boy Scout uniform to non-Scouting events.

Americans are the big foot of carbon footprints. I remember one of my college textbooks (late 70's). One of the chapter titles (you've got to love the combination of the 60's and the 73 gas crisis) was "The Engineer as a Drug Pusher." It talked about how engineers invented the lawn mower. Then the self-propelled lawn mower. Then a riding lawn mower. Then a riding lawn mower with a canopy. Lo and behold, engineers then invented treadmills and tanning salons because people we not getting enough exercise nor sunlight. The net effect? Energy consumption!

Agree with Bob White for the most part but sometimes I (apologize Lisabob, but I think it is a "book answer" and not just what I do) insert the Chaplain's Aide (or have trained the Chaplain's Aide to insert himself) into the equation depending on the "offense" and if used, usually after the PL and before the SPL in the order of "whom."

A long time ago in a far away place ... In the mid 70s in Missouri, Union Electric wanted to build a new nuclear powered electrical power plant. The "gas crisis" of 1973 was just as real in the form of sticker shock as it is today. In actuality it was worse because not only was the price very high, availability was suspect. We may now have gas prices near $4.00/gal but availability is not an issue. Anyway, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that building a nuclear plant is not done with small change. Union Electric, being a utility company is sort of private (one may buy UE stock on the open market) and sort of public - it is regulated by the state. It asked to slightly increase the rate it charged per kW/hr to raise funds to pay for the new plant. Opponents of nuclear power, rightly or wrongly, got legislation passed that prevented utility companies from "charging" for the cost of plants before they were built. Therefore, a utility company, such as Union Electric, would need to spend out of their pockets (keep in mind their profit margin is regulated) for a new plant. That legislation (as well as The China Syndrome, Three Mile Island, Silkwood and other events) kept new plants from coming on-line. I don't know what other states do wrt building refineries. But I'm sure it is a big undertaking. Private companies exist to make money. If building a new refinery is too much risk and cuts into short term profits - that in and of itself will prevent them from being built. If cost effective (or given the appearance of being cost effective such as builidng hundreds of Starbucks) refineries would be sprouting up all over.

Sewing (and no, that was not is jest).

RE: The old "active participation" bugaboo. You (and many others) have stated that a unit may not levy attendance requirements to determine active participation for a Scout. True of false...A unit may set an attendance or participation measurement to determine if a scout is "active" in the unit? Your response was that this was a false statement. In our unit, I set participation expectations. This requirement is explained in The Boy Scout Handbook, pg 169 as TO GAIN FULL ADVANTAGE of all Scouting has to offer, you need to be present when things are happening. Take part in meetings, in planning activities, and in the fun of adventures. If youre there, you can do your part to make your patrol and troop a success. However, it does not state specific attendance levels. I do set an attendance level as a gatekeeper (it happens to be set at 50%). What I mean by "gatekeeper" is that if a Scout falls below that level of participation, he needs to contact me (the Scoutmaster) to discuss the situation. In the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures it mentions that a Scout will be considered active in his unit if he is (skipping parts 1 & 2) engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (informed of unit activities through Scoutmaster conference or personal contact). I maintain, that if I don't see a Scout for a period of time, his participation level falls below 50% and no attempt is made by the Scout to seek me out, he is inactive. I make an attempt to seek out the Scout by attending troop meetings, outings, fundraisers, etc. Now if a Scout has a participation level below 50% and does seek me out and thus remains "engaged" by his unit leadership (including his PL) I consider his participation requirement as being met. So the attendance level is not a "requirement" as a stand alone but is used to set expectations. From a Scoutmaster perspective, I like to have SMART goals ( Specific Measurable Achievable Relevant Ttime-bound). Having something concrete, like a 50% participation expectation, is helpful to the Scout and his parents. Yet it still gives me leeway when used as an expectation and not a firm requirement. Now, how does the BSA define "regular"? (This message has been edited by acco40)

FSCouter, of course everyone agrees that you are entitled to make your own judgment but to start believing that your values are what traditional scouting values are is over the edge. This is my beef with stupid, ignorant, marketing based slogans like - traditional values. What if I was aghast that uncircumsized males were allowed on a campout with my son and oh my God - they had pork on the menu! These are not the values that Scouting espouses to in my book. Does a marriage license show more commitment that not having one? That is arguable. You should teach your children the values you believe. Please don't go and interpret the values of the BSA program for me. On a lighter side - for a BSA/troop outing, and adult is anyone over 18 years of age. Guardian is a glass manufacturing company is SE Michigan.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Because sometimes, somebody has just got to beat that dead horse ... required knots according to the handbook; 6 Again, semantics. One only needs 3 knots for 1st Class. Besides, the actual question was what knots, not how many. I identified three - timber, clove and bowline. Yes, there are other knots which are required for Scout and Tenderfoot (square, two-half hitches, taut-line) but again, I did not include any Scout & Tenderfoot requirements (a Scout may transfer in to our troop as a 2nd Class and I would not retest). Using the same argument for Eagle, I still stick by zero. If one uses an Eagle required as his "two other" merit badges are they considered "elective?" Well, the Scout elected to use those and he could have elected to use any other badge so again semantics, not a misunderstanding of the program. A Scout can identify themselves as a Scout when soliciting for donations for his Eagle project. I have proof! Two Scouts in our troop have done just that! Should they? No, unless ... Again, read my answer and tell me which part of my response was incorrect.

Eagles don't advance in groups, they advance in flocks.

Bob White, a little help please. You scored my responses as 8 out of 18. Now, I'd like to compare my answers to yours (or as you state, the BSA's). The question will be in italics, my answer and comments in plain text and yours is bold. What is the first Rank in Boy Scouts? - Tenderfoot. Common errors on the the other questions. Saying Scout is a rank and counting Palms as ranks So, Bob, you really didn't answer this question so I'm going to assume Tenderfoot is the correct answer. Score = 1/1 correct. What knots are required for a scout earn First Class Rank? Assuming that the Scout is not give "special" advancement requirements - timber (1) & clove hitch (2) for lashings and bowline (3). This assumes that learning to tie the bandages for the first aid requirements are not considered knots. I did not include any Scout, Tenderfoot or 2nd Class requirements (a Scout may transfer in to our troop as a 2nd Class and I would not retest). Thinking Sheet Bend is a required knot. Again, you really didn't answer this question so I'm going to assume three is the correct answer. Score = 2/2 correct. What knots are required for a scout to Earn eagle? Going by the same argument as above - none. Thinking that there are other knots in the camping merit badge or other meritbadges that the scout would need to know for Eagle Huh? Again, no real answer. So I'll assume I'm correct again. Score = 3/3 correct. What is the minimum days and nights of camping that a scout needs to earn First Class? Three. {Since joining, have participated in ten separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), three of which included camping overnight.} Adding the days and night required for Tenderfoot, Second class and first Class together. There are only three night total since joining Finally, an answer from BW! We can surely see we agree. Score 4/4 correct. How many total days and nights of camping does a scout need to progress from Scout to Eagle Scout? 20 - They need to earn the camping merit badge. Adding the lower rank camping nights to the Camping merit badge and saying that the minimum ims 23 or 26 Again, so I now know the answer is not 23 or 26 so I'll assume I am correct again. Score 5/5 correct. How long does a scout have to finish a partial merit badge? Forever is the correct answer. You're probably looking for the "before he ages out (18 years of age for most)" answer. Many people still believe a merit badge must be finished in 2 years. Again, you provide was is not the answer so, if you forgive my tongue in cheek answer, I'll give myself a 6/6 correct score. Can a parent be a merit badge counselor for their son? Yes, if a MBC. Most scouters have no idea what the rules for merit badges are. Parents can be counselors to their sons. Another definitive answer from BW! I like my answer better, but we are in agreement. Score 7/7. True of false...A unit may set an attendance or participation measurement to determine if a scout is "active" in the unit? False. Many do. In our unit, I set participation expectations. This requirement is explained in The Boy Scout Handbook, pg 169 as TO GAIN FULL ADVANTAGE of all Scouting has to offer, you need to be present when things are happening. Take part in meetings, in planning activities, and in the fun of adventures. If youre there, you can do your part to make your patrol and troop a success. However, it does not state specific attendance levels. FALSE FALSE FALSE So in agreement again, Score 8/8 correct. True or false...A unit can set an attendance or participation measurement to determine Scout Spirt? True. They can, but they may not. FALSE FALSE FALSE If you read my response, they may not I understand the intent. But, unfortunately I know many unit do so I believe your answer is incorrect (see my opening statement about the difference between "can" and "may"). So I give myself a score of 9/9 correct. Who sits on a board of review for the ranks or Tenderfoot through First Class? Troop committee members. Some adults think that other scouts serv onthe board, a practice that changed decades ago No direct answer from BW so, I'll give myself another smiley face, score 10/10 correct. Except for merit badges who can sign a scout's advancement requirements? The Scoutmaster must be in charge of advancement in the troop [Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, p. 25]. The Scoutmaster Handbook states that a Scouts leader may sign off on requirements. So, whomever the Scoutmaster designates as "leader" may hold this responsibility. It is highly recommended that the Scoutmaster sign off for Scout Spirit and hold Scoutmaster Conferences. Anyone the scoutmaster approves can sign for advancement, even other scouts We state the same answer - whomever the Scoutmaster assigns. Score 11/11 correct. Can a scout sign his own handbook? Yes. May he sign his own handbook? Again, the Scoutmaster must be in charge of advancement in the troop [Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, p. 25]. The Scoutmaster Handbook states that a Scouts leader may sign off on requirements. So, given the above, I postulate that the Scoutmaster could allow this but I would not. I look at a leader as someone else - youth our adult. Even the Scout himself can sign as in the case of Scout Spirit Again, we are not in disagreement, if given the authority by the SM, he can (and even may). Score 12/12. How many elective merit badges must a scout complete to earn the Star Rank? 2 (four Eagle required plus two others which may be other Eagle required). there are no elective merit badges required a Scout can earn Star and Life using ONLY Eagle required merit badges if he chooses. While I did state 2, I also state that he may use Eagle required as the other two so I think I get at least partial credit. Score 13/13. Can a youth identify himself as a Boy Scout when seeking donations for an Eagle Project? Yes. May he identify himself as a Boy Scout? Yes. It is understood that the Eagle Project is done outside the sphere of Scouting but if asked, yes he may identify himself as such. Should he wear his field uniform (old habits die hard, I hate the term "official") when seeking donations for his Eagle Project? No, unless he is selling Trail's End popcorn, takes the "cash back" option as his prize and uses that for his project! NO, A person cannot seek donations for an outside organization using the name and image of the BSA unless it is a BSA activity approved by the council scout executive or the national office of the BSA. Eagle Scout projects are "outside the sphere of scouting" Again, I know what a Scout should do and what the rules are but I disagree with your answer BW. A Scout can - I've witnessed it happen! Score 14/14. For which merit badge can a scoutmaster automatically counsel because he is a Scoutmaster? None. You must be a registerd anhd approved counselor for each mb you counsel, even if you are a SM. We are in agreement. Score is now an impressive 15/15. Who is responsible for training unit leaders about the BSA advancement program? The Scoutmaster!! The advancement chair (committee) encourges the scout to advance, keeps advancement records, works with the librarian and scribe but the Scoutmaster is in charge of advancement. The Committee training chair (Training Coordinator) should make sure opportunities for training, training materials, training status, etc. is all available. The District Advancement Committee is responsible for training units regarding the BSA advancement program. Okay, I messed up. I have a bad habit of always looking within the unit. So, I go down to 15/16. Who is responsible for the merit badge program at a local summer camp? Program Director. The Council Advancement Committee is responsible for the merit badge and advancement programs at Summer camp. Yeah, I debated this. I know the Council Advancement Committee was the high approver for what badges could be offered, approval of MBCs etc. but the Program Director was the "boots on the ground" so to speak. Again, when it gets outside the unit, I falter. Score trending downward to 15/17. How many personal references must a scout supply on his Eagle Application? The application has slots for parents/guardians, religious, educational, employer if any), two other. The requirement itself just states "List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf." My guess, and it is just a guess, is only one. The scout must provide the names and contact information for 6 references if he is employed, 5 if he is not. I knew that he didn't have to provide anything other than a list but I do know that a parent can be listed as the religious reference so I was thinking on the lines of if a child was home schooled, one parent, not employed, etc. he could state the name of one adult only is an extreme circumstance. Again, I know what is on the application so we are arguing semantics. But ... Score is now 15/18. How many references must the scout obtain for the Eagle board of review? Same as above. ZERO, it is the council/district advancement committee who is responsible for collecting the references. You cannot postpone or cancel and Eagle board of review for lack of any or all references. I just screwed that up. I knew the responsibility did not lie with the Scout. Final Score 15/19. Now BW, tell me why you feel I got an 8? (This message has been edited by acco40)

I've given hundreds of SM conferences and in about 15 - 25% of them a Scout will mention (when asked of his goals) as one of his goals - in so many words - to advance at the rate of some other Scout. Looks at the amount of advancement that takes place the prior two weeks before a Court of Honor vs. any other time. I think that will answer your question.

You can and you may ask him to tie a tautline hitch. But, the purpose of asking him to demonstrate that skill should be to evaluate the Scoutmaster's program. It should not be used as a pass/fail criteria for the Scout. For those who don't agree with the above, consider this. Do you ask the Scout to recite the Scout Oath or Scout Law at a BOR? Well those are requirements. So, the same for knots, first aid, CPR or anything else. What is key is how the response to these questions is used.

In my best Bill J. Clinton imitation, BW - do you interpret "can" in the correct manner? Anyway, I'll bite. What is the first Rank in Boy Scouts? - Tenderfoot. What knots are required for a scout earn First Class Rank? Assuming that the Scout is not give "special" advancement requirements - timber (1) & clove hitch (2) for lashings and bowline (3). This assumes that learning to tie the bandages for the first aid requirements are not considered knots. I did not include any Scout, Tenderfoot or 2nd Class requirements (a Scout may transfer in to our troop as a 2nd Class and I would not retest). What knots are required for a scout to Earn eagle? Going by the same argument as above - none. What is the minimum days and nights of camping that a scout needs to earn First Class? Three. {Since joining, have participated in ten separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), three of which included camping overnight.} How many total days and nights of camping does a scout need to progress from Scout to Eagle Scout? 20 - They need to earn the camping merit badge. How long does a scout have to finish a partial merit badge? Forever is the correct answer. You're probably looking for the "before he ages out (18 years of age for most)" answer. Can a parent be a merit badge counselor for their son? Yes, if a MBC. True of false...A unit may set an attendance or participation measurement to determine if a scout is "active" in the unit? False. Many do. In our unit, I set participation expectations. This requirement is explained in The Boy Scout Handbook, pg 169 as TO GAIN FULL ADVANTAGE of all Scouting has to offer, you need to be present when things are happening. Take part in meetings, in planning activities, and in the fun of adventures. If youre there, you can do your part to make your patrol and troop a success. However, it does not state specific attendance levels. True or false...A unit can set an attendance or participation measurement to determine Scout Spirt? True. They can, but they may not. Who sits on a board of review for the ranks or Tenderfoot through First Class? Troop committee members. Except for merit badges who can sign a scout's advancement requirements? The Scoutmaster must be in charge of advancement in the troop [Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, p. 25]. The Scoutmaster Handbook states that a Scouts leader may sign off on requirements. So, whomever the Scoutmaster designates as "leader" may hold this responsibility. It is highly recommended that the Scoutmaster sign off for Scout Spirit and hold Scoutmaster Conferences. Can a scout sign his own handbook? Yes. May he sign his own handbook? Again, the Scoutmaster must be in charge of advancement in the troop [Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, p. 25]. The Scoutmaster Handbook states that a Scouts leader may sign off on requirements. So, given the above, I postulate that the Scoutmaster could allow this but I would not. I look at a leader as someone else - youth our adult. How many elective merit badges must a scout complete to earn the Star Rank? 2 (four Eagle required plus two others which may be other Eagle required). Can a youth identify himself as a Boy Scout when seeking donations for an Eagle Project? Yes. May he identify himself as a Boy Scout? Yes. It is understood that the Eagle Project is done outside the sphere of Scouting but if asked, yes he may identify himself as such. Should he wear his field uniform (old habits die hard, I hate the term "official") when seeking donations for his Eagle Project? No, unless he is selling Trail's End popcorn, takes the "cash back" option as his prize and uses that for his project! For which merit badge can a scoutmaster automatically counsel because he is a Scoutmaster? None. Who is responsible for training unit leaders about the BSA advancement program? The Scoutmaster!! The advancement chair (committee) encourges the scout to advance, keeps advancement records, works with the librarian and scribe but the Scoutmaster is in charge of advancement. The Committee training chair (Training Coordinator) should make sure opportunities for training, training materials, training status, etc. is all available. Who is responsible for the merit badge program at a local summer camp? Program Director. How many personal references must a scout supply on his Eagle Application? The application has slots for parents/guardians, religious, educational, employer if any), two other. The requirement itself just states "List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf." My guess, and it is just a guess, is only one. How many references must the scout obtain for the Eagle board of review? Same as above.

It is my understanding that as long as each is over the age of 14, a husband & wife may belong to the same Venture Crew. If the wife is 20, the husband 22, he may be a registered leader, she may not (she is a youth in the eyes of the BSA for a Venture Crew) and they need to follow the same guidelines the same as if they were not married.