acco40

If a Scoutmaster, who is in charge of the advancement program within the troop, does not want a Scout to use Den Chief for a particular POR for any reason they have a simple way to stay within the bounds of the program and keep their desires met. Don't approve said Scout for the position. Just like Scribe, QM, Librarian and Historian, those position are not elected but appointed and the Scoutmaster has a hand in those appointments. I agree, don't approve a Scout for a position and then later state that "it doesn't count."

I know what some do when their son is at camp - show up late to pick them up! For the past three years, I've had to wait for a minimum of 1.5 hours with a Scout or Scouts waiting for their parents to show up to take them home.

Scouts should always retain all three sections of their merit badge until it is completed. Then, and only then, the Scout may give the corresponding thirds to the counselor and his unit and keep his third.

For our unit, both myself (Scoutmaster) and the Committee Chair review the project write-up for our Life Scouts before they go to the district advancement committee member. We ask that such things as expected materials, timelines, contingency plans, number of needed volunteers and how one will feed them, are bathroom facilities available, etc. be included in their plans. No, we don't ask them what tool will be needed to drive a nail but somewhere in his right up it should say he will need a hammer and also how that hammer will be supplied (borrowed? donated? bought?). An Eagle project should be a learning experience. And yes, a 13 year old will have a much different capability than a 17 year old. But both should be able to develop a plan (written!) and carry out the leadership of that plan regardless of age. While I agree with Bob White's assessment (see below) I would put special emphasis on #2. I'm not sure what selecting a plan means but not only should the Scout develop a plan, the "goodness" of the plan should be critiqued. Once the Scout has gotten our approval, we have them contact the advancement committee who supplies someone to review their write-up. 1) Is the scout eligible to work on the eagle project? 2) Did the scout select and develop a plan 3) Will the scout be giving leadership one or more other persons in the project? 4) Is the project for an approved benefitting party? 5) Is the project done on approved property? 6) Does the scout have the written approval of the required parties?

One reason I heard for this change is to stop parents from being able to go into the store and pick up the ranks themselves and say their child completed the work. Excluding Webelos, it is my understanding that "Akela" may sign off for Cub Scout requirements and that may include a Scouts parent(s). Therefore, the above "reason" makes no sense to me. A parent can still sign everything off and go the the pack advancement chair.

The real reason for that scoutldr, is not related to what Eamonn stated, it is because if one attempts to put something over the face of a child (who doesn't quite comprehend what you doing) they will resist. If they see an adult, usually their parent in most cases, put on the mask first, they will be less likely to resist. Sort of a do as I do, not do as I say. I admit I get frustrated when I ask a parent to do a task and they state things like "My job keeps be busy", "I have other children" and other such excuses I wince because it implies that I don't have those things (I do). On the other hand, I really don't know what the others do in their so called free time. They may be heavily involved in their church, softball league, school activity, coach a youth sport, like to go bar hopping and a myriad of other things so I try not to be too judgmental. I also try to keep myself from getting burned out. I've learned to limit what I take on better that what I used to do with no attached guilt trips. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

So, if that's the case, the BSA, who will maintain ownership, would surely not charge the Scout who has earned that honor correct?

This year, one of our second year Scouts received a letter from his younger brother while he was away at camp. His brother stated how much he enjoyed going into his older brother's room and playing with his stuff. I found the letter, complete with multiple pencil "stab wounds" all rolled up in the garbage can by the latrine. As a second child, I had to laugh and laud the ingenuity of that child.

Let's look at the beginning of the Cub Scout program. Let's say my son, age 5 lives in a state where kindergarten is not required. It is now mid July and the school year (1st grade for him) starts on September 2nd, right after labor day. Can he join Cub Scouts right now a begin the Tiger program? www.meritbadge.org - Tiger Cub age group: 1st grade www.scouting.org - Cub Scouting is for boys in the first through fifth grades, or 7 to 10 years of age. www.usscouts.com - Cub Scouts joining as First Grade boys enter the Tiger Cub Program. So, I repeat, the question is when is a boy a "first grader?" The day after kindergarten ends or the day he begins the first grade? The same can be said for 2nd, 3rd, 4th grade. I think the June 1st "rule" is a mere suggestion. Yes, I've seen it on hand-outs and pdf files but I think it is more of a guideline. However, I admit, I have not been involved in the Cub Scout program for quite some time.

I took 21st Century WB the first year it was offered. It was taught fairly well in my book. But in some of the courses I've taken and trained, like Intro to Outdoor Skills - I do find it "weird" to try and get the adults to perceive the training as Scouts. Of course, what I would really like to see the BSA offer Den Leaders, Scoutmasters and those working directly with the youth is a basic child development course with special emphasis on boys (obviously) and for the age group (6 - 10 or 11 - 17). I'm always flabberghasted how some adults treat children as "mini-adults" and have no real comprehension for age appropriate behavior.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Cub Scouts, as well as Boy Scouts has been sliding the age requirements/suggestions to the left for quite some time. Back when I was a Cub Scout den leader, 5 - 10 years ago, the program levels followed the school year. Now if grade A ends in mid June and Grade B starts in early September the question was always what grade is the cub Scout in during the summer? I had a Scout who did not finish their Bear badge requirements by June and I gave him until the end of August to complete them. I also allowed other Scouts to start working on their Webelos requirements immediately after the school year ended (mid-June). To muddy the waters slightly, we get the following: MeritBadge.org - The Wolf program is for boys who have completed first grade (or are age 8). ww.scouting.org - Boys who are in the second grade or who are 8 years old are members of a Wolf den. So, again, where are boys who have completed the first grade but not yet started second grade? I interpret the answer to the advantage of the Cub Scout in question.(This message has been edited by acco40)

If you are a EBOR member who doesn not really know the Scout consider the Scoutmaster - by signing the Eagle application the SM is recommending this Scout for Eagle. Consider the letters of recommendation. These individuals should be giving their honest opinion on the qualifications of the Scout. Why should a EBOR member who doesn't know the Scout as well as the other folks above make a different deduction? Boy, doesn't the response above look rather prescient given what we now know about the incident?

Unofficially, Pagan scouts have been kicked out of units, at the unit level, but later reinstated by National when they made a stink about it. Don't chartering organizations have a right to kick out Pagans if they wish? Or, are you suggesting they were kicked out for some contrived reason but the real reason was that they were Pagans? I thought, a CO could remove all sinister folks (left handers like me) if they wished. Am I mistaken?

As a parent with two inexperienced drivers in the house (17 & 16 year old Scouts) I'm familiar with the worrying parent situation. Eamonn, I'm going to take a risk here and take a flyer but ... From the tone of you post one thing that bothered me was you seem to imply that "bad" folks seem to have more accidents than "good" folks. I guess, depending on how you feel God weighs in on such things that could be true but from my perspective goodness or badness doesn't enter into the equation very often. Good people make bad judgment calls with the same frequency as others - especially our youth.(This message has been edited by acco40)

One of the questions I ask the scouts during our Scoutmaster Conference is if I, as Scoutmaster should expect more from the Scouts for the "show Scout Spirit" requirement as they advance in rank. Most say yes but in my opinion, the requirement is the same for each rank so why do we expect more for Eagle or from another point of view, expect less for 2nd Class for example? If you are a EBOR member who doesn not really know the Scout consider the Scoutmaster - by signing the Eagle application the SM is recommending this Scout for Eagle. Consider the letters of recommendation. These individuals should be giving their honest opinion on the qualifications of the Scout. Why should a EBOR member who doesn't know the Scout as well as the other folks above make a different deduction?

Those who live in the southwest may want to go to Minnesota. Those in the upper midwest New Mexico. For myself, the mosquito population in New Mexico is much less than in Northern Tier and Florida is just Michigan in the summer time.

I can also build a bunch of arguments that man invented religion or turns to "God" because of his selfish nature (I don't want to go to hell, I want to go to heaven, I want salvation, etc.). Free will still exists and even with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, a person can choose wrong over right. And I contend that a person can choose right over wrong without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

unanimous approval of an eagle board of review Isn't that redundant? Are there any other methods of approval?

Maybe I'm too American but I am leery of organizations that have more emphasis on what you think than on how you act. And yes, I'm fully aware that that includes most Christian religions and the BSA.

Don't forget that the moderators, like all forum members, only sporadicly visit this forum. How do you propose that the moderators get consensus? If I take a week's vacation should all "moderation" cease until I return? Get real. Yes, I understand if one has a threshold that is much, much lower than the others he wields sort of a higher authority than the others but that's life. I've been moderated. Maybe, we should not feel so indignant and rethink why what we have posted has caused someone to feel the need to edit, delete or warn us about what we post. I like the fact that this forum tries to be a 'cut above' other forums. Just keep the Politics & Other Issues area free for bare knuckle fighting. :;

Children have developmental stages. It is ludicrous to try and teach a three year old to share. They are not in that stage of development. The "terrible twos" come about because the child is just starting to realize that he is an independent being - not an extension of everyone else (or everyone else an extension of him). I cringe when someone tries to label such behavior as "good" or "bad." Is is bad if an infant cries when it is hungry, wet or tired? They don't know how to feed themselves, put themselves to sleep or change themselves. Christianity states that newborns have "original sin." Something that many find controversial. Governments used to make the offspring of debtors and other "criminals" take on the burden of their parents. They've stopped that practice.

I took no offense to hops' actions. I does not make me feel I need to be more heavy handed. Moderators don't think in lock-step. In fact, when I was invited to moderate, I think one of the things that they were looking for was to get a cross section of styles & opinions. Therefore, it really doesn't surprise me that the moderators all have different thesholds for moderation so to speak.

That's easy Merlyn! It believes in "traditional" values and everyone knows that traditional values are the good ones and not the new bad ones.

Vol_Scouter - I think you hit the nail on the head. The age old question - can one be moral and ethical if one does not believe in God? I think that many major religions teach that if it was not for religion, yes, all of mankind would be no different from the animals. Yet, the more we learn about animals - they do care for their young, have great social networks, etc. so I wonder? Is it our ego or apposable thumbs or divine intervention that makes man so different from the "animals?" Some believe that we can act civilized in spite of religion (I'm not one). They proclaim that much of man's suffering was due to religious strife. So the debate continues. For those who believe that a belief in a higher power is essential to our morality doesn't that mean that if a person is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave and Clean that he then must be reverent? In otherwords - keeping reverent in the Scout Law would be redundant. And for those who don't believe that a belief in a higher power is essential to our morality - why have reverent in our Scout Law?

Okay boys, my moderator finger is getting itchy. Sorry acco, mine itched a little too much.. Hops (This message has been edited by a staff member.)