InquisitiveScouter

8 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Uh, that isn’t how it works. This is solely they SM decision under the G2A. You can console him, but not override him. This isn’t an advancement coordinator role or a committee topic. 

Sure it is...

In the extreme, yes, you can override the SM...by relieving them of the job.  Now, this case shouldn't get there, and can probably be resolved by talking it out with the SM and Committee.

The worst parts of this situation are 1.  that Scouts are caught in the middle, 2. SM has misguided idea of what constitutes service, 3. it sets a really bad precedent (the slippery slope), and 4. what about the Scouts who participated in the last COH or other unit function?  Where are their "service" hours?

Really hope this works out easily and well for you.  Please let us know how it goes...curious.

If any need some extra time, I tell my Scouts, "Go for a long walk with your parents and pick up litter along the way."  Physical fitness, family togetherness, clean community, a good turn done, and service hour beans counted.  Win/win/win/win/sarcastic win....😝

5 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Most charitable solicitation registration laws (and other state consumer protection laws) require a charity to use funds for the purpose for which they are solicited.  That is one reason why solicitations ought to include broad charitable use language as well as specific intent.  If you get more than you can use, or if the project changes, you can still use the funds for general charitable purposes.

Just curious...when you make a donation and wish to earmark it specifically, with what document is this done?  A simple letter??

And this is why councils love FOS and the "$1000+ Knot" (James E. West Fellowship).  Income which is purely discretionary for them.  A council employee (involved with the money) once told me they frown on restricted donations, and that councils earnestly seek ways to work around them to get that "fiduciary monkey" off their back. 

3 minutes ago, Kamala said:

Yes your suggestion is more manageable.  However this type of service has never been given to scouts in our troop.  We just had an Eagle COH in the fall, scouts serving in specific rolls could ask why didn't they get service hours.    Its just opening a can of worms. 

One of many reasons it should not be done now...

2 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I guess they go behind Door #4 where Carol Merrill

You are officially an old fart

11 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

It's funny - I don't know where that tradition started.  Our troop is that same too.  I suggested changing it when I was committee chair only to get a very stern "why do you want to mess up our Eagle Court of Honor process."  So I left it alone...

Sounds like you've got a role similar to another troop I am familiar with - a very experienced Scouter served as Eagle Court of Honor advisor.  That made a lot of sense to me.

Yes, I scratch my head at this one, too...  It's like everyone wants their own ceremony, as if it was a wedding or something.

We have a "very experienced Scouter" provide the script, the emcee and players (all Scouts, thru the SPL), and invite dignitaries.  If the parents want to pick (and rent) the venue and provide refreshments, that's up to them. 

We always encourage families to combine ceremonies (multiple Eagles) or tack them on to Troop COH's, but the message doesn't always get through

Thing is, when a family strongly wishes to have their own "day", and then the event is not well-attended (because the Scout and/or family was not well-regarded), it does tend to make it sour for them.  You can lead the horse to water...

9 minutes ago, Kamala said:

I am the advancement chair.  

Then I recommend you bring up the matter at the next committee meeting.  Express your concern that granting service hours to conduct or support unit-centric events may not meet the intent of service hours.  Explain you talked with District Advancement Chair (?) and they are in concurrence.  Discuss and vote.  Inform the SM.  SM is not a voting member of committee, but should give the committee his/her perspective.

41 minutes ago, yknot said:

A lot of our families have vacation homes or do extended and multiple vacations and clear out for the summer.

We have the same, and yet, our summer events are still the most attended...

18 minutes ago, Kamala said:

He has done Outdoor leader training and scoutmaster training.  Recently  he also attended Wood Badge.  He has just become the scoutmaster last April, '20.  Before that maybe two years as an asst. scoutmaster.

It's gone to his head

And curious, but what is your role in this??

17 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! (and yes I am shouting in joy at ya;) )

2.. You new SM is incorrect.  BSA's definition of community service is found in Eagle Scout requirement 5 which states, "

"While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project must benefit an organization other than the Boy Scouts of America.) (emphasis added) A project proposal must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your Scoutmaster and unit committee, and the council or district before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, BSA publication No. 512-927, in meeting this requirement. (To learn more about the Eagle Scout service project, see the Guide to Advancement, topics 9.0.2.0 through 9.0.2.15.)"

So no, participating in an Eagle COH is NOT community service. Nor would I say it is troop service. I is a troop expectation, obligation  activity, whatever you want to call it.  In every troop i have ever been in, it was expected that we would be there. Also in regards to community service at the lower ranks, this definition has been used in every unit I have ever been in. So working CS day camp, serving as a volunteer at summer camp, doing an OA Ordeal also do not count as community service.

@Eagle94-A1, you have complete agreement from me, but I think what the OP was getting at is that 4.2.3.3 does not specifically say what you have cited from the ESSP verbiage, so the SM thinks anything goes...

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

I couldn't afford Philmont when I was in Scouting. It would be a joy to experience it before I croak. 

You can "put your toes in the water" by trying out the Philmont Training Center first.  This is a great experience for adults, or families!  It is like a week at summer camp, but the Scouts do not work on merit badges.  They simply do age appropriate activities.  And my wife loved the spouses program...tours, shopping, and talks...

Tent living, good meals, excursions, camaraderie, clean bathrooms, activities, campfires, etc.  And the price is comparable, or cheaper, than summer camp.

You could do an intensive training program.  And, they build in plenty of family time in the curriculum.

We plan to go back to PTC.

Check it out:

https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/ptc/

1 hour ago, GiraffeCamp said:

That would be especially great for recruitment time!

Would that be May or August?

The "official" Cub Scout program cycle begins in June.

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/CubScoutMeetingGuide/PDF/Appendix/511-807.pdf

However, most Cub Packs "take a break" over the Summer.  IMHO, this is horrible  Scouting is, and should be year round.  This is also why, I believe, BSA created the Summertime Pack Awards, to encourage Packs to be active through the summer.

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33748.pdf

I think you should begin recruiting in April and May...saying "Hey, we have a great summer program for you and your Scout-aged youth."  So, they start in June...there is no pressure from school activities, and you can get them into some kind of Summer Day Camp program.

But, most Packs try to recruit in August and September, right at the beginning or the school year, and then they wind up competing with all kinds of other school preparations (parents feel like they are running crazy) and programs.

BTW, many Scout Troops "take a break" in summer, too, and focus only on a summer camp program.  This is hogwash.  Not everyone vacations at the same time, so I have never bought the "we won't get any participation" argument.  Our summer events are the most attended, and we have the most daylight to work with for all kinds of great program.

Happy Hunting!

@Kamala,

It is inappropriate for the SM to do this.  But, no one is really going to enforce a "community service" standard, other than the unit committee themselves.

If the SM approves it, the unit committee can, during their Board of Review, look at the Scout's service hour requirement and deem the requirement was not completed.  The BoR recourse would then be to send the Scout back to finish that requirement, and tell the SM that it was inappropriate to award service hours for service to Scouting.  By the way, verifying that a Scout completed the requirements is one of the MAIN purposes of a BoR.

The SM works for the Committee.  The Committee constructs and conducts BoRs, and those are, somewhat, a performance review for the SM, not the Scout

If the Committee is unwilling to enforce it...not much anyone else is going to do.

1 minute ago, vol_scouter said:

Though I know almost all of the BSA upper management and many employees in the country, I know no one who fits your category 6.  That said, I am not denying that such individuals may exist, from my experience, they are rare.

I know two...

3 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

As a certified oddball and registered pedigreed odd duck, I'm onboard with the odd numbers. 

Lol...totally did not plan it that way

10 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

While realizing that not all slopes are slippery, when you have the view that I don't have to follow this rule about lazer tag it becomes a little easier for someone with less judgment to decide not to follow the two deep leadership rule "just this once." 

Luke 16:10

He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

2 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

That sounds like a reasonably happy ending. I can foresee certain marauders drowning in their hapless attempt to recover the booty. 

And I can see the good Lord smiling on the undertakings of others and justly rewarding their efforts. 

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

When I stand back and look at the mosaic of this story as it plays out, I cast National in the role of the wealthy ruler trying to make an escape to establish its domain on the far shore. Arrogant, defiant and unwise, the ruler makes a fatal of error of judgement. He has loaded the ship with so much wealth that it sinks halfway across the channel. His subjects, left on the shore, must fend off the marauders at the gate with little by way of stores, few resources and no precious metals or gems with which to negotiate. 

Except, in this case, the subjects (us), left to fend for themselves, go on happily scouting because there are no "marauders" after us.  The marauders then launch maritime salvage operations and learn to deep sea dive (extended legal actions against local councils?)

4 minutes ago, David CO said:

You'd think the SE would have read the red form, wouldn't ya?

LOL, my daughter's Crew did not recharter this year.  They sent the form to my wife to fill out. 

She asked me what to do.  I said, "Are you a current registered member of the BSA?" 

"No." 

"Here, let me open the garbage can for you."

1 minute ago, ThenNow said:

This is a question borne both out of curiosity and my interest in the health and safety of kids.

Are there "model" structures or relationships between the various entities that can be put forward as exemplars? I'm sure some of you have it dialed in to a science. This is how it's done in other context with great success. To borrow from the franchise discussion, this is why and how the good ones succeed wildly: strict adherence to replication. Even as I say that it dawns that as volunteer driven it lacks financial incentive, effectively downgrading the engine of the model. The V12 becomes a Volt. It was a thought. "Here is what works and this is how to do it, if you manage to pull it off."

Every unit has its own culture...

In the Air Force, every headquarters has a Standardization and Evaluation section.  All flight crewmembers must take periodic "checkrides" to ensure adherence to flight and safety standards.  No current checkride?  You are grounded.  When you take a checkride, there is a write up of your performance.  If any areas are substandard, there is prescribed corrective action which must be followed.

I believe the Commissioner Corps was supposed to perform this sort of function.  But, I have never seen any forcing function for units to comply with all of the BSA standards out there.  It is totally up to the goodwill and integrity of the volunteers to ensure compliance.  So, some units begin doing things that are outright forbidden; adults with alcohol on trips, fireworks, inappropriate adult supervision, hazing, ignoring safety standards for aquatics activities, etc.)

Basically, if something happens, then the adults get sued for negligence or something else.  In most cases, I have heard of BSA offering settlements for cases.  Anyone have real stories to share of adults being held to account?

Here's a case of a lightning death:

https://www.poconorecord.com/article/20060609/NEWS/606090357

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Bsrk6zqXN68J:https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-jun-16-na-scouts16-story.html+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

And another lightning:

https://etvnews.com/rayborn-boy-scouts-reach-settlement-in-wrongful-death-suit/

And a fall (ongoing case??):

https://www.opb.org/news/article/corvallis-mother-sues-boy-scouts-of-america-for-sons-death-during-camping-trip/

39 minutes ago, David CO said:

Join the club.  This is how BSA executives treat most of us volunteer scouters.  This attitude is not reserved solely for those who have been sexually abused.   Smug, insolent defiance sprinkled on top of contempt.  Well said.  Very well said.  

Unfortunately, this is my experience as well...

1 hour ago, GiraffeCamp said:

Is the Safe Swimming stuff completely online? If I want to do Floats and Boats in September, do I need any in-person training before then?

If you want to increase your knowledge and skills, check in at your local Scout camp this summer and complete two courses:

Aquatics Supervision:  Swimming and Water Rescue - a day or two

Aquatics Supervision: Paddle Craft Safety  - a day or two

Next level is BSA Lifeguard... takes a week at a Summer Camp, if offered

Next level is go to National Camp School, Aquatics Director program.  Week long intensive course...  Lifeguard cert required before starting...

54 minutes ago, GiraffeCamp said:

Is the Safe Swimming stuff completely online? If I want to do Floats and Boats in September, do I need any in-person training before then?

All online...

You will need to do Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat.  On my.scouting Training, they are under "Expanded Learning" "Program Safety"  While you are there, recommend you go ahead and complete Hazardous Weather training.

Then, please read and comply with applicable sections of Guide to Safe Scouting "Aquatics Safety" section.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss02/

Three biggest gotchas:  1.  Anyone not classified as a Swimmer must be in a boat with an adult classified as Swimmer.  2.  Cub Scouts may not do boating on moving water.  3. Participants must wear a life jacket for all afloat activities, including tubing.

Have a blast!!

13 minutes ago, GiraffeCamp said:

YES!!! That's the whole reason we are in scouting and not in some sort of academic enrichment program. We need experiential and social learning! 

I've seen conflicting things on SCOUTStrong/Healthy Unit--do you know if that's still going? If I should be checking those off and giving out an award or if it is no longer active? I saw online it is over but the official site doesn't say anything. 

I think I have a rough sketch of meeting and activity. Would you mind me sending a PM with it for criticism or encouragement?

No need for a PM...

The Scout Strong awards were retired on 31 Dec 2020.  My guess is due to lack of popularity...

But, as with any retired award, you may give them out as long as you can find a source for the patches.  They are still for sale...

https://www.scoutshop.org/nsearch/?q=ScoutStrong

These will probably show in Scoutbook for several more years, but that's a guess.

I pitched these to our Patrol Leaders Council for program, and they were, "No, thanks!"  There is so much other program material to do...

As you are picking a program for Lions and Tigers (and Bears, oh, my!!  Sorry...that slipped), you'd have to really work to put it on their level.

If you choose to do one, recommend the Healthy Unit Award option...

Happy Hunting