InquisitiveScouter

8 minutes ago, yknot said:

Also, just to answer the second part. I know scouts leave scouting because it's more fun to do things without it but it's not just having two adults along that makes it a drag. Many components of the program, from the uniforms that a lot of kids don't like to the homework like aspects of many of the rank requirements and badges to the long boring meetings and ceremonies also contribute to that. It's not just because of YP. That's my point. I understand it's part of it, but it's not the only reason why scouts is losing kids. and if we continue to get stuck on that like a canoe on a dry river bed, we're never going to get anywhere.  

 

Didn't say it was the only reason, just one of them...

16 minutes ago, yknot said:

Is that for real, lol? Is there an actual reference for that in YP or G2SS? I know I am not supposed to be the lone adult with any youth as you note but I have never heard that kids can't ever do anything together with a friend in a non patrol group to work on requirements and have it count. Scouts in our units do it all the time. 

For example, the Cycling MB clearly states use the BSA buddy system and it's not unusual for older scouts to meet up for a ride and work on this. Friends working on Personal Fitness at the same time will meet up for runs without towing two adults in their wake. Same with Sports MB., etc. etc.  

 

 

 

 

Yes, for realz...

G2SS specifically now states "Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings. "

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/

Scouts are not to do any activities without adult supervision.  This has been written for some time now...

Not just for overnighters...

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

 It does go to why someone would persevere in Scouting in the midst of repeated, long-term abuse, not tell an adult and fail to fight back or flee. Most of us froze, as I did. Extremely common with children who are abused.

Although I experienced abuse outside of Scouting, this all rings true...  I didn't want to tell anyone because I truly believed my situation would only get worse as a foster...  food, clothes, a roof, and some semblance of stability were the trade off.

The sad part was, years later, when I confronted the couple and some of the people they knew, I found out that their adult friends knew about and didn't do or say anything to stop it.  That "betrayal" hit me worse than the sexual abuse.

Fortunately, Scouting was the place I could go for safety.  Most of my mentors were veterans, and they helped me through some pretty tough times.

But, without proof, it was the word of a white trash teenager against a "well-respected" member of the community.  No one was willing to be my champion.

2 hours ago, yknot said:

So you are saying that once a kid joins scouts, he can no longer call up a scout friend and say 'let's go on a hike' unless two leaders accompany them?

That is correct, technically, if they want to do the activity to count for anything in Scouts.

I think what @qwazse was saying is that, youth are leaving Scouting to go do activities which we would call scouting.

For example, I know many older teenagers and young adults 16-21 (who are Scouts) around here who go rock climbing without adults.  They tell me it is "too much hassle."  I won't let my Scout go with them, but he has asked.

When he turns 18, he'll prob go without asking

Same for backpacking...my dear daughter, same age group, goes backpacking with her friends and college buddies.  They don't want older adults around.  I am pleased that she is often ribbed for being the only one who brought the first aid kit, map, compass...etc.  She is, after all, an Eagle Scout!!

Here's another one...although not specifically stated in the G2SS...in the BSA FAQ you will find:

Q. Does this mean my son cannot have a sleepover if I am the only adult present?

A. Yes, if any of the children other than your own child is a Scout, we strongly encourage all adults to use the Barriers to Abuse in and out of Scouting.  

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/yp-faqs/

-----------------

Horse hockey...if my son wants to camp in the backyard with his buddy, who happens to be a Scout, and his parents are OK with it, it's just fine with me.  This one is beyond the pale.

BTW, if they say "Yes" and then say "strongly encourage", isn't that mixing the message.  Also, why should it only apply if the other kid is a Scout? SMH

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

I applaud your fast-and-loose interpretation of YPT:

If the scout calls his buddy without two registered adults online, it is no longer a Scouting activity. If a hike does not include two registered adults, it is, by definition, no longer a Scouting activity. If they conspire with the rest of their patrol to go fishing early in the morning on opening day without two registered adults, it is no longer a Scouting activity.

You mention work that would count toward advancement. If a scout does it in the presence of 0, 1, or 50 registered adults, it still counts toward advancement -- except when it explicitly must be "under the auspices of BSA" ... as opposed to that night before opening day when his buddies camped independently by that sweet bend in the stream. But that is my point precisely, the majority of scouts worldwide aren't interested in doing stuff for advancement. They are interested in fulfilling the vision of the pinnacle scouting experience of hiking and camping independently with your mates. Simply put, by YPT standards, the majority of youth scouting is no longer a Scouting activity. Therefore, American youth must leave Scouting to actually scout, and they do ... in droves.

In a sense, BSA over-sells Eagle and chaperoned HA bases: because it can no longer sell the vision of the pinnacle scouting experience.

That (and also that Eagle was not explicitly a youth award) is why BSA amassed membership through the 1960's. That is also why predators began to target such organizations ... it was almost easier than getting a teacher's degree or grooming one's young family member.

So, we are offering an opportunity to be awarded (notice I did not say earn) BSA's trademarked Eagle Scout product, under supervision of more than one adult?  ☹️

Just now, TMSM said:

My son actually brought this Nationall Outdoor Award Meda idea to me (SM) and said this is what his goal was. He worked with our Awards Chair to help him understand what each segment was and encouraged other scouts to go for as many segements as possible. As an older, 16, scout it gave him a reason to go to summer camp and to look outside for training. Many of the requirements come from earning a MB and then participating in those activities but the other parts were hard for him to complete. WFA - 16 hour training was hard to schedule aroung sports and troop activities. LNT train the trainer was really hard to fine during COVID. Our council dropped these classes 4 years ago and other opportunities were either too far to drive or were cancelled. He did finally get this all completed and on hiw own. Our CoH is in 2 weeks he will be awarded the NOA medal so I am both a proud dad and SM.

Some of his stats:

Miles hiked - 600

Nights camped  - 151

Hours of Aquatics - 106

Conservation Hours - 62

High Adventures - 5

This is a great award and should be promoted more to get scouts to do what scouts do.

I am trying to find out how many scouts have earned this medal - any ideas how to find this number?

In your council, call, and very nicely ask your registrar.  They can only give you the council number though.

National, ask Bryan on Scouting

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/contact/

They have contacts at National that might give an answer this year, and "Bryan" might post a piece on it.

6 minutes ago, MattR said:

Unfortunately, most councils are broke and all they see is money. That seems to be the root of all the problems.

+1

8 minutes ago, qwazse said:

rainbow trout with cashews in teriyaki sauce 4.0

Mine does almonds...maybe I'll try cashews!!

LOL

So, a synchronized event, because others must participate together at the same time??

Basically a webinar??

How long was long the course?

4 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

On the topic of YP quality, I would like Council to summary report on YP incidents and actions of past year at recharter and during training. Not necessarily names or units unless publicly reported.

Doesn't have to be at the production level of Frank Capra Why We Fight but same idea.

My $0.02,

I asked for the same kind of info on accidents and was told no way, no how.  They feared releasing too much detail and exposing themselves to some kind of liability.  I thought that was BS-A.

National does release accident summaries to help.  I used to brief some of these at Roundtable.  For other reasons, I have been removed from Roundtable presentations

They could put the same thing on the web page for YPT stuff...

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/incident-report/incident-reviews/

27 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

You are, after all, "Optimist."  

Lol..

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=optomist

5 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

You think a SM is going to give two rips if a regional person or DE or Council enforcer tells them they are doing it wrong? Of course not.

The only way this works is heads on pikes. SMs removed. Charters not renewed.

It will only take a few to get the message across.

Yeah...it's a dog's breakfast having regional take it on. 

But if SM's are removed, all it will do is kill units...

Putting down my crayons for now on this one

7 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Two problems.

1) My district hasn't had a DC in years, much less a unit commissioner. Not everywhere has commissioners coming out of the ears.

2) The entire idea of the commissioner corp is they are there to assist where they are welcome. Granting them (a volunteer) authority over a unit is fundamentally altering the deal. They already have a bad reputation as Council's spies and enforcers. This would codify it.

That said, district executive or other paid professional might take this on but it creates a conflict there as well. But it may be better than trying to overhaul commissioners into enforcers.

What about those people employed at the regional level... what do they fill their days with???  And could they be tasked to do Unit Compliance visits (inspections) every two to three years? 

2 minutes ago, MattR said:

Suppose a change was made to the commissioner program that created a better learning environment for units. Rather than be advisors at best and a waste of time at worse a commissioner had real responsibility and authority. I'm not looking for heads on pikes so much as servant leadership. Make a real connection between units and the council that is more than "send us money and fill out advancement reports." That would require a big shift in mindset at the council and national.

How about Commissioner also has to sign off on unit charter?? Just exploring an idea...

14 minutes ago, yknot said:

Maybe it's just our council,

No, I'm sure that is National policy, but it is up to councils to enforce.

11 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

And when I've had this come up I simply point to the BSA bankruptcy and how much councils and national have to pay for insurance nowadays.

The rules are there because of mistakes in the past. Failure to follow them is a 100% surefire way to ensure there's no future program.

Preaching to the choir there, brother.  My point is, somewhere along the line everyone does a cost-benefit analysis.

"For the benefit of what Scouting has to offer, am I willing to undertake the cost of the 'regulatory' burden?"

More and more people I know are answering "No" to that question.   And, if they keep doing Scouting, those are the ones that consistently endanger youth and program.

39 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I already hear enough yelling and screaming about how YPT is making scouting impossible, additional enforcement will go over like a lead balloon.

That said, I will say that YPT enforcement is a complete and utter joke. I've never, ever seen anyone bounced or reprimanded for failing to adhere to YPT protocols. Perhaps it will take some heads rolling/SMs removed from position to get the message through.

And not just YPT...all the other G2SS provisions that add straws to the camel's back.  When I am mentoring younger adult leaders to take on SM-type roles, this is the biggest pushback I get...too many rules and prohibitions...

Are we near the breaking point with the burden of all those straws?  If you want to get certain behavior out of people, you need to incentivize it.  What incentive is there for someone to become an SM these days??

Although I agree enforcement is a joke, I doubt that rolling heads will help.  It would only further discourage people from taking on the roles.

Again I get to the radical idea of paying people to be Scoutmasters...then you can more easily subject them to some sort of inspection regime to ensure compliance.

23 minutes ago, swilliams said:

The mom of Scout One told us (me, SM and CC) after the school notified her that her son had been named in a HIB.  She thought we ought to know since Scout Two had said this occurred during a Troop meeting.  Are you thinking she may not be telling the truth about it?  Of course, the school cannot, and should not, confirm or deny, nor would I ask them.

I suppose I could just resign my position, then I wouldn't have anybody bothering me about it.  😄

Hearsay??  I wouldn't touch the whole "it happened at the Scout meeting thing"  Unsubstantiated accusations are just that...no need to bother. 

Sounds like the SM has it in hand.  SPL and PLs are responsible for "discipline" within the Troop, under his watchful eye.  SM should keep other Key 3 informed, but not drag you nor the rest of the Committee into it.

If it were me, I'd hear both sides of the story and anyone who witnessed / actually heard anything going on and take it from there.  Find out what the core of the matter is and ask Scout One and Two what their solution is.  Sometimes, that is neutral corners for a while.

If Scout Two does not come back, that is the Scout's and family's decision.

As SM, I only inform the Committee if some negative consequences come into play.

3 hours ago, swilliams said:

Now a third scout has quit the Troop over this ongoing issue. 

??

1 hour ago, swilliams said:

In February, Scout Two then filed a HIB report against Scout One, but said that the offense occurred during a scout meeting. 

Curious...how do you know this?

2 minutes ago, MattR said:

In a way this illustrates my point. I don't doubt that your troop is well run. Yet your ability to go your own way implies units that don't have your stringency, that have sloppy YP, can fly under the radar because they also believe they should go their own way. Kids get hurt. On a lessor level units just have a poor program and that creates negative PR that we all have to deal with.

Changing the culture to be more focused on quality rather than membership numbers, whether for YP or program, is going to be a hard push. Units want their autonomy, councils want their salaries and national is just hanging on for dear life. I'd really like to see that change but I don't expect it.

My apologies for being a downer. 

Not a downer, at all.  I'm sure we all wish the program would be better implemented at the unit level.  Can you imagine how many youth would want to be Scouts if it were so?

The sticking point is, how do you do this?  What is the forcing function?  As I had posited before, I believe this was supposed to be the vision for the function of the Commissioners Corps, but we ain't there...locally or nationally...

5 minutes ago, MattR said:

In a way this illustrates my point. I don't doubt that your troop is well run. Yet your ability to go your own way implies units that don't have your stringency, that have sloppy YP, can fly under the radar because they also believe they should go their own way. Kids get hurt. On a lessor level units just have a poor program and that creates negative PR that we all have to deal with.

Changing the culture to be more focused on quality rather than membership numbers, whether for YP or program, is going to be a hard push. Units want their autonomy, councils want their salaries and national is just hanging on for dear life. I'd really like to see that change but I don't expect it.

My apologies for being a downer. 

Here's a radical thought...pay the Scoutmasters!!

4 minutes ago, MattR said:

Every district has at least one unit that would rather go on their own because they feel they know better. Maybe they do and maybe they don't. Think about that with respect to YP and it's chilling. There is no control over these units.

We go our own way because we are so stringent with YPT, among other things.  

We are known as the exemplar.  If you want to find the gold standard for the way to conduct a program, come visit us.  Always room for improvement, though...

We see too many other adults cut too many corners, particularly in safety matters, that we are comfortable interacting with three other nearby Troops with leaders of similar mindset.

9 minutes ago, MattR said:

Most are probably fine but how many need to fail before it impacts all the other units? How many units consist of 10 scouts and two parents that go camping.

We do at least four patrol-only camping trips per year.  With six patrols, that's twelve adults minimum.  Two adults is fine... please don't paint it as if it is not.

10 minutes ago, MattR said:

How many of these units have one parent that shows up late or goes home early because they're stretched thin, busy at work, etc?

Never.  When there are only two, if you can't make the whole trip, have a swap out worked into the plan, or do not go. 

11 minutes ago, MattR said:

It requires something more than throwing a video, pamphlet, or form over the fence.

Hear, hear!!

4 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

@mrjohns2 is pointing out where authority lies with approving the service hours.  Per GTA, that's clearly with the scoutmaster.  Whether he should or should not approve that type of hours is a separate qusetion.  Whether a BOR can reverse him is an extremely very ugly situation and usually only results in explicit damage.  

With that said ... once we get to the point of discussing who has the authority and how, we're way off the tracks.  As with many things in life, the best way to handle differences is by direct conversation.  Get to know each others views.  Repeat his words to to him to see if you are really hearing him correctly and if he said it right.  See if there is a compromise.  See if there is a way to accomplish each other's goals in a different route that creates common understanding.  

Even bringing before the committee often makes things too stressful and creates annimosity.  

And accept, you will not always get what you want.  You may need to look at the preponderance of the situation.  Is the SM generally doing right by the scouts?  If so, get out of his way and support him.  

Completely agree.  I was pursuing this as a question of first principles...  if it ever gets to that point, we have already all failed

23 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Fair.  But it's relegated to a requirement for a rank and it's a handout pamphlet in the Scout book.

For leaders, we've got an extensive online training with talks by professionals in the field.  It's very sobering and thought provoking.  For parents, it's a pamphlet that a youth does with his/her rank advancement.  I think for most parents it's a check-box item.

I think this is typical:

• Scout to parent: I need you to sign off on this requirement for my badge.  
• Parent to scout: What is it?
• Scout to parent:  It says we need to talk about abuse of kids.
• Parent to scout: Ok.  You know abuse is bad - correct?   
• Scout to parent: Yes
• Parent to scout: You'll tell us if anyone does anything bad to you - correct?
• Scout to parent: Yes, I will
• Parent to scout: Ok, I'll sign off on it.

It's in the category of - no one thinks it will happen to their child.

YPT for leaders really makes you think if you are paying attention.  I would believe a very sobering version that parents take every year or two would be a good idea.  Make parents aware of the signs that they go over in YPT.  Give parents steps that they can follow to increase the likelihood of catching a problem.

Agreed, I encourage parents to read the entire pamphlet.  But, ask them to focus on the five "exercises" in the back of the pamphlet (per the requirement).  I suspect this is often "pencil-whipped"

And none of the exercises really discuss our YPT measures.  To this day, some parents are surprised when I ask them to stay a bit until the second leader arrives for an activity, for two-deep.

I like @yknot's approach...every parent completes the BSA adult training as a pre-requisite for registering their youth.

@mrjohns2

OK, so do you think the SM is correct in approving "service" in this manner...whether he has "authority" to do it or not?

9 minutes ago, yknot said:

 I can see where that would have some basis in fact, at least as far as how that data could be a reality. In the BSA YPT system, there is no oversight. COs are supposed to be the overseers on paper, but in reality that often does not happen and there are multiple reasons why Districts, Councils, and the BSA turn a blind eye to that and don't enforce it. There is a lack of clarity in many BSA YPT policies. There is great variation in how different scouters and units interpret YPT.  In those ways I think it is less effective than the YPT programs administered by some of the churches, sports leagues and other youth activities I have encountered. There is a lot more clarity and direct oversight in other youth organizations. That might also be a function of the fact that many of those activities are less fraught with problematic situations than scouting is.   

I'd bet that, in most current cases of abuse, there are provisions of YPT that were not followed.

That is, BSA relies on the goodwill of us volunteers to enforce YPT.  And, when one of those volunteers does not have good will, and intends to prey on youth, they find the opportunity to ignore YPT policies and wreak their misdeeds.

So the question is, is there any way, realistically, to enforce YPT provisions other than through volunteers?