yknot

In the late 70s I was in a lot of those other youth organizations -- 4-H, US Pony Club, drill team, catechism classes and CYO, sports leagues. I recall no such similar literature, manuals, or attitudes. The only corollary would have been in the Catholic setting where priests were revered and to a lesser extent with individual ex-cavalry military officers who were involved with mounted youth Troops and Pony Club. Their involvement however was more arms length as they were generally judges, officials, chef d'equipes.

Things are indeed different now but comparing an epidemic of child sexual abuse to some of these other issues isn't really a defense. It really falls apart when you look at environmental or health issues, because there are many similar situations where government agencies, corporate entities, or other organizations noted, collected, and yet failed to act or do the morally right thing with the information they had and often tried to hide because it was inconvenient, just as the BSA did. Whether it was a cancer causing substance or an abhorrent medical practice, we don't attempt to excuse it with the defense of "Well, that's how it was back then." Enrolling minorities in medical trials without their knowledge or dumping a chemical into a water source that resulted in human cancer clusters was wrong on some basic human level, even if prejudice, environmental awareness, and personal health issues were viewed differently back then. Whenever society has found that entities tried to minimize or even hide these kinds of egregious results, they've been called out for their actions and often criticized and sued just as the BSA has been. You know something's wrong on a basic human level if a lot of people are dying of cancer, or they are suffering from a disease you know is treatable, or a lot of children are winding up sexually abused. I don't why there is this defense that basic humanity should have applied in these cases but not when it comes to the BSA.

Whoa...

It's in a couple of councils and camps. I can't fathom how it continues. BSA is lucky the people who made Leave No Trace seem to be unaware of it and didn't cut images in to juxtapose with some of the interviews.

I don't think it's honest to say that an organization that can produce and still to this day perpetuate and protect a situation like Mic-O-Say isn't outside of the norm and doesn't foster, closed, cultlike subsocieties and mentalities. I'm not aware that the Y's of the world or the Little League have anything even remotely comparable. If BSA can close ranks around something as ... I'll be nice and call it questionable ... as Mic-O-Say, who could trust that it wouldn't have closed ranks around anything else it deemed inconvenient to acknowledge?

To me this is the similarity with the abuse cases in the Catholic Church and to a lesser degree other religious denominations. Even more so than other religions, the position of the Catholic priest in a community was revered as above reproach, as was someone who embodied the highest of scouting's ideals, the scoutmaster. For that matter, even at the youth level, rank and file scouts are given a measurable level of higher regard by their community. How many times have we heard something along the lines of, "It will be fine, he's a scout." We still default to it here to this day on this forum, most recently with our pride in the two scout troops who assisted the dying and the injured during the recent train crash in Missouri. Of course they would be heroic, they're scouts. This similarity in viewing priests and scoutmasters as being on a higher moral plane than everyone else likely contributed to the abuse scandals in both institutions. Parents couldn't believe such things of the people they held in such high regard, in some cases even questioning the claims of their own children. The community at large also often couldn't comprehend such behavior and was perhaps exceedingly reluctant to act on reports. And we all know how the leadership of each institution reacted to the decades of claims.

I think most of the councils sent out a version of a letter that must have come from National. It didn't say much and was along the lines of this: https://www.bsacac.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Statement-on-Hulu-film.pdf

It is adults who drive most of this and the negative connotations are perhaps most extreme in OA but not unique. There are also those adults who get up in front of other adults and youth and sing the Back to Gilwell song, or others who insist on singing some of the traditional camp fire songs or skits that are also more for the 1950s. I have seen this chase prospective or new scouts and families out the door. I think BSA needs to reevaluate how it is presenting itself overall, not just in OA.

I think you're right, but it's because there is no point to the UMC going bankrupt along with the BSA.

Thanks. That's what I was looking for.

It's June 30th and the UMC agreement that was supposed to be finalized a few weeks ago, and then the week after the June 16th webinar, and then again more than two weeks later, is still not out despite assurances it would be done by today. I wonder if, when the June 30th date was originally set, the participants assumed the lawsuit would be over by now?

That's not so crazy. The Methodist Church has been undergoing its own schisms and upheavals and has also had decades of membership and financial losses that it has to weigh and consider. There is very strong support for scouting in certain sectors of the UMC and the UMC can't afford to alienate them and lose more membership. On the other hand, the financial risks and potential costs of continuing a relationship with scouting is real. Negotiating something that doesn't have the UMC itself ending the relationship with scouting but instead causes that by default or significantly reduces the level of involvement could be one possible strategy to solve a difficult dilemma.

It's a great story and has been picked up by multiple major and minor media outlets and is getting good visibility. It is also all over facebook, twitter, and other online sites and news sources. None of the stories or posts I have seen have mentioned anything about the bankruptcy case. It's all been positive.

A letter from the national Elks organization went out in December telling state chapters not to recharter scout units. Some states ignored it, some individual lodges ignored it, but many lodges did choose not to recharter. Last I heard, there was possibly an effort along the lines of what UMC is negotiating to allow some kind of limited involvement again with scouting but I have not heard that officially or seen any update. Maybe someone else on here knows more. Around the beginning of the year, elks.org removed any reference to boy scouting from its site, as did my state chapter and several other nearby surrounding states.

That was raised in one of the review articles but it's basically not relevant. There are a host of documentaries where sources are also part of the producing team and vice versa. That's not unusual. You can say you don't like how they covered the issue, but that particular point is kind of a bizarre criticism by the reviewer.

The responsibility belongs with BSA. It will have to figure out a way to provide supervision. Perhaps if it restructures to operate in a more business like, effective way instead of the dysfunctional scout way it has adopted, it will streamline some of its convoluted and archaic structures and processes in a way that will make it more economical and functional to run.

I know they wanted something in place before June 30 but it's been an unusual process in that they set the unveiling meeting and said the agreement would be sent out prior to the meeting but didn't do so. Then they said it would be available at the meeting, then in the week following the meeting, and now they say it's still being worked on and are promising it for yet another week from now. It seems odd that there is still so much to work out after an unveiling meeting. It also seems odd that a facilities use agreement, which ought to be much more straightforward, is also still being worked out. I wonder if the fact that the judge's ruling, which I think both BSA and UMC thought would have been issued by now, is playing a role in that or if there really are that many issues still under discussion.

I'm not understanding what you're trying to show. This article is talking about accidents and deaths, not abuse. There are also relatively few boy scout camps compared to other private or commercial camps so I don't think you can draw any useful comparisons. the state of California alone has almost twice as many camps on its own than boy scouts has in the entire United States.

This is the common sense approach. They are the new Swiss army knife, and while parents want their kids to unplug they also want them to have them for emergencies. In the current Youth Protection environment, particularly in scouts, cell phones are basically part of the safety net. Most schools have policies like this, the kids are used to those kinds of policies, and they (mostly) work.

Speaking of Elks, late last year/earlier this year they were told not to recharter scout units although some still did. Supposedly there was going to be an update in a month or few. I have not seen anything but has anyone else? As far as assets and churches, many are failing so it's not clear how core some assets would be considered.

It was originally supposed to be sent prior to the webinar I thought but at the webinar I think they said a copy would be sent out in the next couple of weeks along with a video of the meeting and some FAQs. Also based on what was said at the meeting they expect the process to roll out at different times for different councils over the summer, to conclude by October. My assumption is that they had to do something now to appease the UMC before the June deadline but probably are far from having all the details worked out as far as how all Councils will handle it. Some are not staffed to take over the CO role I gather.

Yes, I and others generally recommend anyone working as a volunteer with youth carry a $1 million umbrella liability policy. There are many other settings where that That is not something that would be recommended as part of a CO model it's more of a personal decision. This discussion is more about the general liability market for scouting. Is that what you meant?

I agree. I've mentioned that here before and often been scoffed at. Pretty much every kind of insurance I've worked with has been tightening for decades but it's gotten particularly bad in the last 10 years or so. There has been a particular change in the youth market though and we are starting to feel it. Apart from the UMC, in the past year we've had several private or commercial youth properties who used to allow scout access say scouts can no longer use their properties due to insurance. Scouts specifically, not other youth organizations. I think scouts may be in danger of becoming the equivalent of a dangerous dog breed in the youth insurance market.

I watched the webinar too and to me it seemed clear that the UMC had understandable liability concerns about "owning" units for the BSA. They are certainly willing to continue a role as affiliates, which is something less than a CO relationship but more than a facilities use agreement. The UMC, like many community based organizations, is facing some of the same challenges as BSA -- membership in a steady decline and consistently falling revenues. I've seen some big Methodist churches that have healthy congregations and balance sheets, but most of the ones in my region are failing and hanging on by a thread. They are taking sensible steps that allow their congregations to continue to support scouting in some way but minimizes their exposure. One of the most interesting aspects of the discussion last night was a very brief mention by the insurance expert about the "hard" insurance market for organizations that are involved in or support youth activities. He pointed out that high risk activities with high loss exposure, like scouting, are facing rate increases and coverage reductions. That obviously, and logically, factored into the UMC perspective.

Not sure if this belongs here but I think this will solve many of the "What to do with one or a few girls" issues: https://hovc.org/articles/2022/06/family-den-pilot-program/