yknot

I don't think so. But it's disheartening.

One of the interesting slides that was part of the hearing that I saw posted elsewhere were recent membership numbers. BSA had put out some PR I think in January that membership had grown from 700,000 to one million. As most scouters here know, however, the real number is generally arrived at in the first quarter after most of the recharter grace periods end. The real membership number as of March has dropped to about 650,000 scouts. Whatever plan -- Churchill or private senior staff -- BSA has to build up from there. What isn't clear is if that 600,000 also includes the UMC charters that were put on extension.

For years people have been saying iceberg dead ahead and BSA has done little to nothing or reacted far too late. I'm sorry if the constant iceberg warnings seem anti scout or hateful, but that's not the place they come from for most of the people that raise them on this forum or at least I don't think so. For example, I'm not here because I like constantly pointing out BSA's failings, I'm here because I want BSA to stop failing.

That's not really state of the art, it's kind of been status quo normal for at least ten years. When I first signed on as a T ball coach it was ridiculously easy and I could access almost anything I wanted online and so could parents. "Health of the unit" was pretty easy to assess. You could view rosters, standings, schedules, training, volunteer status, etc., etc. From the parent viewpoint, registration is easy -- all forms, including medical can be taken care of right there, payments, uniforms, attendance at specific events/games, team/unit communications, etc. As the years have gone by, useful features and convenience has only become more robust.

This is what people like me who are active in other organizations have been saying for years. The processes elsewhere are generally seamless, convenient, efficient, and easy. And cheaper. When we attempt to recruit people from outside scouting to the organization, they encounter this morass and are incredulous. Many folks who have been involved in scouting for years are in essence boiled frogs. They accept an incomprehensible situation as acceptable. Those that don't accept it and try to change it are blocked, silenced, tossed out, given some pap about how we're all volunteers and the answer is to volunteer yet more for this crazy universe, or dismissed as anti scout cranks. I too hope BSA will reorganize in a way that will allow it to reach a modern level of basic administrative competency.

That's good news and is exactly what might be a relevant federal role in this situation. May not be able to save boy scouts, but many of these properties are worthy of preservation, especially anywhere on the east coast. While on the one hand I want to see survivors optimally compensated, on the other hand individual communities and states cannot afford to lose some of these as yet undeveloped legacy properties. The pressure on local, county, state, and federal parkland and wildlands is extreme and the pandemic accentuated that. More acreage and access is needed.

I have no wish to rehash these same topics that have been repeatedly and definitively discussed in other threads as you note. I would refer to them if I could find them. But I think anytime someone tries to claim that children have been safer in scouting the basic irrationality of that should be noted. The fact that we are in this thread talking about Chapter 11 is one of the more relevant and factual aspects of that reality.

You're entitled to your opinion but it's not based on facts. There have been similar claims made here that scouting is somehow safer than other youth organizations and repeatedly that has been debunked. One of the largest youth organizations in the US is 4-H but if you google sex abuse claims and 4-H you come up with very few cases. There are unique characteristics in scouting that have made it more prone to infiltration by predators. This was recognized by organized scouting as far back as the 1920s; before we had the ineligible volunteer files they were called the red files. Scouting has done a lot to clean up its act in the past few years which is good but no one should think kids are somehow safer in a tent on a scout campout than they are in the middle of a public ballfield in daylight with multiple kids, parents, coaches and spectators watching. That defies logic.

Reality does not support your opinion. Youth were particularly at risk in scouting for reasons similar to the Catholic church. The person BSA hired to oversee youth protection also said youth in scouts were particularly at risk because of the nature of the program. Failing to comprehend those risks only condemns us to repeat them.

I have issues with some of the inanities of the diversity/equity movement but for the most part there are a lot of people in scouting who are still in the dinosaur age. They are in our units, they are all over facebook and reddit and on some of the scout sites. I think the badge will be just fine and is a good thing in general. I have been in a mixed progressive/conservative council in a very blue state and the stuff that people say around here still curls the eyebrow hairs. I can't imagine what it's like elsewhere.

That's some good news. At least it will be preserved. One of the important lessons of the pandemic is that we don't have enough public spaces available, even in pretty rural and undeveloped areas.

I don't think it is as simple as people who want it vs. people who don't. The pandemic was really hard for a lot of people. Just dealing with the random stop/start of quarantining out of work or having kids quarantining or losing family members who helped with child care was and still is hard to manage.

When were these built? Who is your incident report going to? If it were me I would cc NCAP and the municipality where the camp is located. I would wonder whether those structures are up to current code. Also, municipal policies for youth events within township borders might supercede BSA camp policies. Regulations for municipal youth sports facilities, for example, can be pretty stringent and enforced. You don't see many teams stuck in dugouts during weather events. It's not ideal to draw attention from a government source but in cases where the judgement of BSA leadership can't be trusted -- and we all know nothing much will happen if your report is solely internal -- then the priority becomes ensuring the safety of future scouts.

Yes, the more hermetically sealed our lives become the less we seem to have basic common sense. Regarding your mother, when I was scout age I read a book on weather that focused on lightning phenomenon like the one your mother experienced. It made a big impression.

Sorry to hear that.

That does complicate things. We have a few campgrounds close to bases but they do sometimes (sometimes) send out alerts to the public before firing off anything big. There is also a National refuge near us that is a popular hiking spot. On one side it is bordered by a fireworks manufacturer and they routinely test. Also alarming, lol.

This kind of nonsense is a part of why we left scouts. There is just no consistent baseline of outdoors commonsense in scouting. Years ago I don't remember it being such an issue. My personal, anecdotal belief is that more people in years past, even suburban people, grew up with more outdoor experience and understood the consequences of foolhardiness. Now, people do not have that background noise to inform their decisions and they do really questionable things. It's like talking to a wall to try and address this stuff. I haven't been killed by lightning thank God, but I've had three close calls with it. They were life altering enough that I take weather events very seriously. I've learned forget the phone apps, weather can break over your head so look up rather than down at your phone. I've learned that lightning can literally strike out of the blue even if you are just hearing rumbling in the distance. I've learned you can get knocked off your feet if you are touching the wrong thing or standing in the wrong place. I don't know why anyone would treat volatile weather with anything other than extreme caution.

I have to admit I've been struggling to follow this discussion, but I think the point that is coming through is that since a CO owns the unit it can pretty much set membership however it wants. It might not be in its interest to do so, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it can't. There is history of COs establishing scouting units as a way to build membership in their particular church -- requiring church membership of anyone who is a member of the unit. That has undeniably happened. I don't think it's common -- most of the COs I deal with sponsor scout units as community service outreach much the same way they host AA meetings or what have you -- but it does happen. This discussion has been focused on religion but there are multiple units that have turned down girls or special needs scouts or scouts with severe allergies because they don't think they can accommodate them.

LOL OK I think I parsed out that it is some kind of reimbursement for their legal expenses or some other kind of expense. Interesting.

How is that even possible ?

Except who other than us is paying any attention at all? Scouters have been told to keep their heads down and focus on their local units. So many are doing so.

I don't know if this is "fun" but a lot of young or new scouts and even adults are hesitant to camp because of fears and worries. Fewer parents are coming to scouting with much previous exposure to the outdoors so it is all new to them as well and harder for them to reassure younger scouts. Good prep covers some of these areas and normalizes them. Bathroom issues are what they are but you can do what you can to dispel concerns. Personal night lights -- cheap battery votive candles or mini led light strings give kids some sense of control. It's something unobtrusive they can leave on all night if they need to unlike a flashlight or lantern. A lot of people are freaked the first time they hear a fox shriek or an owl hoot. There are plenty of apps where you can play a guess who game. One camp out I heard three different owls call. I thought I was the only one who noticed. I got a huge kick out of the cubs who came up to me in the morning to tell me they also heard them. Bear Aware is a big deal by us. In general, most kids find animals interesting so don't just cover the scary do's and don'ts, talk about bears and how cool and smart they are. We had a state BEAR educator come to one of our meetings and she had some fun handouts.

Yup. Many of the countries we try to compete with in mathmatics and science place a much higher value on treating children like children and letting them explore and learn. We keep trying to turn it into a trendy new expensive curriculum program or advancement process.

It's a great approach but it's counter culture in a lot of units.

So true. Unfortunately there are a lot of units that have a very advancement focused, regimented culture. If you can't find time for a hike, or a couple of hikes, or for just checking out the stream or some flashlight games, something is wrong. The other thing I hate is when it becomes tailgating in the woods and no one can leave the campsite because food is the entire focus. I don't mind an occaisional camp out dedicated to cooking involved meals, or a signature fun meal or snack, but I also think if you are toting multiple coolers and apparatus into the woods every weekend you are missing out on the woods.