Buffalo Skipper

Beavah, As you brought up how the troops handle this, I should add a footnote to our unit proceedure. We have a "Life to Eagle Coach" who reviews with every Life scout the process and who is a "mentor" throughout the process. He is registered as an ASM, so he has no place to sign on the application; his role is strictly as an advisor. The SM signs, as does the Committee Chair. Personally, I do not necessarily appreciate the value of the L2EC, beyond someone who is up to date on what the process is. If this scout is a true Eagle candidate, I don't see how having a designated "hand holder" to get him through this process demonstrates leadership. Sorry for the 15 second rant. My ADOS must be flaring up again.

Thanks Sir Scoutalot. Having been to Skymont last summer, that gives me a pretty good impression of their facilities. I am curious about the program, but as we have settled on Woodruff for this year, we will wait before evaluating next year's program. (I can't believe I am trying to evaluate programs 18+ months before summer camp season!?!)

Our district is both more and less formal than some of those described above, and we also run 4-6 ELSPs a month. Our scouts meet with members of the District Advancement during the hour before the District Committee meets. Each scout meets with 3 or 4 DC members, spending about 15-20 minutes reviewing the proposal and the nature of the project. Of course, ensuring that the paperwork is in order is important, but the expectation has been established, so it is uncommon for any project to be deferred for that reason. The primary purpose is to that the project is appropriate as an ELSP. Does it benefit the community (not an individual or inappropriate group), does it provide sufficient opportunity for the scout to show leadership, has the scout truly determined the needs of the project, etc. Remember, this is a part of advancement, and must be done by the scout. It is the scout's responsibility to organize, prepare for and complete the project. There is no requirement in the Scout Handbook, SM Handbook, Advancement Guidebook, or anywhere else, that the ELSP is to be legislated to success by a governing or approving body. If the scout fails his project, it is his own doing. Our approach is different than what was done even 3 years ago. Considerable effort and coordination went into determining this process, with a significant amount of communication between the council and national. The reason behind this is that each district in our council was doing this differently. These changes came about collectively with all our District Advancement subcommittees working together to determine and execute a common, acceptable process. This has created a "council" standard, which is followed by all districts. Two things of note: first the DAC does not sit on any of these reviews, as it is his job to be the outside source, if there is any question or "appeal"; second, if a scout is extremely close to his 18th birthday, a special board may be called to review a project before the monthly DC meeting. This is done only when deemed necessary. Though I have not been directly involved in this process, I have watched as it developed, and it appears to me that it is working very well for us.

As a member of the DC (not advancement), I hear about Eagle projects every month (the hour before the meeting is spent with boys going through the project approval process). I rarely hear of a project being "rejected." The process being followed is more or less, to determine the merit of the project. In other words we don't really want an ELSP to carried out which is destined to be rejected because it is inaddequate. Paperwork is reviewed for signatures and such, but the "board" is really evaluating the scope of the proposal. Occasionally, I have heard things like: "be sure to include more pictures before you begin the work" and similar things, but that is neither a rejection of the proposal, nor a requirement to resubmit the paperwork. If this man is a member of your troop committee, consider going to your COR and/or Committee Chair and discussing the matter with them. If he does not represent the CO respectfully, suggest he be replaced. (I know things are not always so cut and dry) We have one young man who recently completed his ELSP. He was planting thousands of plants on a remote beach which had suffered tremendous erosion issues during and after the hurricanes which have pounded our area in recenet years. After his project was "approved," we had two more storms (Fay and Gustav) roll through which actually re-shaped the beach on which the project was to take place. He took the initiative to re-survey the area and move some of the plants to an adjacent beach. Dead trees blocked the path between the two sandbars and he organized to have participants carry over 500 plants wading 20 yards out around debris to get them where they were needed (the area was so remote that the plants had been ferried in on multiple boat loads). I saw this as an example of leadership, rather than a lack of planning or poor organization. It angers me to hear of so called "leaders" who spend so much effort preventing scouts from leading. Shame on him, and good luck removing this obstacle from all good scouts.

The "hanging out" is always a crowd pleaser. But my personal favorite is to have a cub scout come out pulling a length of rope behind him. He is asked: "Why are you dragging that rope?" To which the cub scout replies: "Have you ever tried to push one?" Another one we use here is to have someone run up screaming "Run! the infantry's coming!" And another scout walks in carrying a potted sapling.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Actually, Vector is for Venturers and Boy Scouts. We ran the pilot course in our council back in March, and it was attended by both Venturers and (non-Venturing) Boy Scouts. The syllabus was supposed to be released in August. When it is released, it is one for 14+yo scouts delivering advanced leadership and teaching skills. These are exactly the skills we should be teaching our JASMs. Yes, hopefully, it will be out soon. Our Venturers who attended are already wearing the patch. It is pretty cool.

You might also consider Vector Training, if you can find a course in your council or one nearby.

Certainly this is a fluid document (especially where Sea Scouts is concerned). Keep in mind also, that this is the Volunteer chart, not the professional one, which shows a completely different heirarchal structure. Personally, I am surprised that Sea Scouting made this chart at all. I mean (I know that the divisions have been "reorganized," but...) that there is no CS, BS, Venturing or Varsity committees on this level, why should we in Sea Scouts be represented when the other programs are not? (that was a rhetorical question, BTW). I will be spending the weekend with the SR Commodore at Seabadge, and hopefully we can discuss this more then. I will let you know what I hear about it.

Kahuna, I may be able to put you in touch with a gentleman by the name of Vick Vickery. He is a SM in his mid 80s, and retired from professional service a few years ago. Shortly after his retirement, he was awarded the Distinguished Eagle Scout Award (not your everyday recognition for professional scouters...). The scuttlebutt was that when he was presented the DESA, he was offered the position of national president, but he turned it down, citing that he had a troop to look after now (the oldest troop in the council), which was more important. I don't know how true that story really is, but even our SE treats him with a unique reverence. Let me touch base with him, and if it is all right with him, I will forward to you his contact info.

And just what is wrong with a pink neckerchief? Our troop has one. Well sort of. The story goes, when our troop first chartered, one of the committee members owned an Italian restaurant, and as the troop needed neckerchiefs, he donated napkins for the troop's use (you know the kind, pink (red) and white checkerboard). That was in 1932 and we still use them to this day! Every scout in our district for decades associates our troop with the neckerchief. Others have traditional or unique, custom madeneckerchiefs, but no other troop is recognized as immediately as we are. John, if you like, I will bring mine along this weekend to show you. And,no you can't have one. Troop tradition says it must be earned. So sorry. See you Friday.

Great story! That is certainly a keeper. (wait, it is open season on SM minutes, isn't it?)

The PLC decided upon Woodruff, and we have our reservations locked in! Much of what sold the PLC on this camp was the multiple adventure programs (on and off site) for no additional cost. Talking to other troop leaders, the new scout program (called Mountain Man at this camp) is highly regarded. We have several older boys (16+) and will have a large crop of younger boys (11-12), with only 2 or 3 inbetween these ages. We will certainly evaluate the program this year. We still have material coming in from other camps around. We received in the mail a really great DVD from Rainey Mountain. We may head out there next year. Please feel free to pitch in more on this thread. I will likely resurect it over the summer to plan early for next year. In the meantime, keep those reports coming in. Thanks for all the input!

I was doing some reading up on the Bear Vault. Do you use the full sized or the "solo"? Just how hard (or easy) is this product to open? It also says it doubles as a seat. What do you think of this? Is it high enough and big enough to hold your tush?

"At your wedding reception your best man leads a round of the Gilwell song and half the groom's side joins in while the bride's side looks on in complete confusion." ROFL! One of our troop's Eagle is in his mid 30s is soon to bemarried for the first time. He isa district scouter, WB ASM, Lodge Advisor,COR and much more. I will forward that to him (as a warning!). Brilliant!

I have had this list for some time. I imagine some of you have seen it as well. Finding that 25th hour in the day while at scout camp last weekend make me think of it. Add any if you like.... You might be taking your Scouting too seriously if... You buy that '89 Chevy Caprice because you really like that fleur di lis hood ornament. Your favorite color is olive drab. You decide to lash together the new deck on the back of your house. You plan to serve foil meals at your next dinner party. You walk the streets in broad daylight with a coffee cup and flashlight hanging from your belt. You raise your hand in the scout sign at a heated business meeting. You were arrested by airport security because you wouldn't give up your official BSA pocket knife until the cop said "thank you". After the last hurricane, you didn't mind losing power to your house for three days. Your son hides his copy of Boys Life from YOU. Your plans for remodeling the bathroom include digging the hole deeper. You trade your 25 foot center console fishing boat in on that great little 15 foot canoe. Your favorite movie is "Follow Me Boys" staring Fred MacMurry, and you spent months trying to convince Disney to release it on home video. You managed to find that 8th day in the week. You disconnect the automatic dishwasher in favor of the "3 pot method." You sneak a cup of "bug juice" after the troop turns in for the night. You can start a fire by rubbing two sticks together. Latrines at camp start becoming comfortable. You felt you won a moral victory when BSA brought back knee socks. You think campaign hats are cool. You gave your wife a mummy bag rated for -15 deg F for Christmas. You name one of your kids Baden. Your favorite tune is "Camp Granada" (hello mudda.....hello fadda) by Allen Sherman. You can recite the 12 points of the Scout Law backwards, in order, in 3 seconds flat. You bought 10,000 shares of Coleman stock on an inside tip they were about to release a microwave accessory for their camp stove line. You can't eat eggs anymore unless they are cooked in a zip-locked bag. You plan to get rich by writing a best selling Dutch oven cook book. You took a chemistry course at the local college to help you develop a better fire starter. You actually own a left-handed smoke shifter. The height of your social season is the district volunteer recognition banquet. A trip to Philmont is a pilgrimage. You are convinced the center of the universe is Irving, Texas. The sales operators at the BSA distribution Center's 800 number recognize your voice. Singing "Scout Vespers" makes you cry uncontrollably. You were disappointed when Scouting magazine didn't win the Pulitzer Prize last year. The Scouts in your troop chipped in to have you abducted by a professional cult de-programmer.

My den(s) were at our camp for Webelos Weekend during this year's (and last year's, coincidentally) time change. Our program director "enforced" a policy of "camp time," in which no clocks changed until you left camp on Sunday. All the Sunday activities were run one hour early. That's two years in a row in which I really have found that 25th hour of the day.

I think Eagle1982 made some good observations, and I concur about the clean up. We choose our meals to create the least amount of waste, and for ease of clean-up. Our troop does mostly 2 backpack trips a year--a warm up hike (15-20 miles) in December and a long hike (20-30 miles) in January. Last December, we had daily temps in the low 80s, and though that did not affect our choice of food, we never take fresh meat. We do not allow packaged, freeze-dried, backpack meals at all. We have found them to be lacking in carbs, high in sodium and generally a poor choice, health wise (look at the back of a freeze dried meal--usually it is under 400 calories!). Just how "homemade" our meals are may be subject to some debate, but we feel we do well. Breakfast usually consists of oatmeal or grits. Lunch is often a cup of soup with canned meat added. Dinner is somewhat more elaborate, but usually involves bag-packaged tuna or chicken with a ready made noodle casserole mix. I am working on introducing a little variety and creativity into our meals. Last year, for the adults, I made a more "elaborate" meal, combining chicken with cous-cous, powdered milk, powdered cream of chicken soup mix, freeze dried peas and carrots, and some simple spices (I prepard it in advance, mixing it all together in a bag and only the meat was separate). It boiled up in 5 minutes and was quite tasty. I also tried a different breakfast with a mashed potato mix, adding powdered cheese and real bacon bits. One $.99 bag gave 2 adults nearly 2 cups of carbs with some protein. If you go this route, I will strongly recomend the Idahoan Yukon Gold mix. It is 10x as good as any other instant potato (even of the same brand), needs no butter and mixes with only water--very good stuff! Also, we usually take along some fresh fruit and nuts, in addition to gorp. I am already working out this year's (adult) menus, and we will have a cook off at a meeting for the patrols to decide on which meals they want to take with them. ---warning--food hazard--- If you are looking on the internet for an light weight, high nutrition supplement, avoid---I repeat--AVOID---Ultra Joe's Moose Goo (and the subsequent recipe for Mookies). I would not feed this to my worst enemy. It may be a nutritious mix, high carb speciality, but it is the most vile tasting stuff you ever put in your mouth! (sorry Joe, I hope you are not a Scouter)

We generally operate in an area in which black bear sightings are big news, and fairly rare (in 35 years of scouting, I have never heard of an encounter between a bear and scout in our area). In spite of that, we do sometimes forray into more populated bear country, and I would like to pick up one myself. What brand or style of bear cans do you use with your troops? What are their pros and cons? Any and all feedback is welcome.

Peridiochas, Our troop uses Troopmaster, and our previous advancement coordinator used the generated award cards and liked them; our current ac has not used them. The pack I am associated with uses Packmaster, but does not use the cards. We looked at using them and though they were great, our decision not to use them hinged on the cost. Our pack is well funded, but we would rather spend the money more directly on the boys. Sorry I cannot offer you more.

Respectfully, ChiefThundercloud, I disagree. We insist on presenting T-L (patch) at the troop meeting immediately upon being signed off with the BoR. We then present the card in a more formal ceremony at the CoH (one to three months later). I believe that once earned, the badge should be presented (at a troop meeting), and go through the formalities at the CoH. After all they are an Eagle Scout as soon as they pass their BoR. Why should we deny them the privilege of wearing the most significant rank they have earned? But as GW says, let the boy decide what he wants.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Guy, It is my understanding that each unit (with their commissioner) fill out the CQU sheet, with each unit setting their own goals. I have seen the CQ District sheet, but I cannot recall if it includes advancement goals. It does have a provision for CQU participation, membership (both in individuals and units), commissioners and other areas. I have likes and dislikes about the CQU program, but as you said, that if for another thread.

I agree with most of those here. Once he earns his Eagle, he should be able to wear the rank emblem on his uniform (assuming he is below the age of 18). Like any other rank, he is entitled to wear it once he passes his BoR. I do not feel that he should wear the rank emblem if he is over 18 on his Boy Scout uniform, if he were to wear an ASM patch. Personally (not the consensus, I know), I would be less concerned about his being 18. His audience is financial supporters. How many of them are going to know he just turned 18 and should not be wearing the rank instead of the knot? I just finished a rant on another page about perception. If he is to speak from the perspective of a Boy Scout, then it is important to their perception to show them a Boy Scout, not an adult. If he is there representing the crew, then have him in his Venturing shirt with the Eagle patch. Just my $.02(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

GKlose, Are you refering to a Centennial Quality Unit or Centennial Quality District? I can see where your coments could be refering to either....

What I think this all boils down to is perception. Part ofScoutMomSD's original remark (and I am not trying to take this out of context) was "My mom used to say, 'avoid the appearance of evil'." This is, I believe the key to ScoutMomSD's perception of what is creepy. Avoiding the appearance of "evil" is important. But how one sees that statement is important. Would one question the motives of achurch youth director who was unmaried or too young to have children, or whose children had left home to go off to school? Obviously not. I think we should all be concerned about how people percieve us, our units and our organization. Christian knights (and priests)of the middle ages engaged in many un-Christian-like actsin Eastern Europe and the Middle East(during the crusades). Should I thereforebe sceptical ofchurch leaders and members who display a sword as part of their emblem or sign? Should that church, mindful of their church ancestorsof 700 years ago, change their symbols because others may think they are about to go off slaughtering "unbelievers"? Perceptions are sometimes hard to change. In many cases, perception (regardless of how accurate that perception may be) is reality. Changing someone else's perception can be difficult. It is said that it someone is 10x as likely to communicate a bad experience than a positive one. For every bad apple leader you read about in the paper, there are a thousand or more that you never hear about, working and guiding youth every week. I attended a fundamentalist Christian school while in middle school. Staff members and their families were forbidden to go to the movie theater. Why? Because (as the story goes) the preacher's kids came out of the theatre once after the marquis had been changed from what they were watching to an "R" rated movie playing in the same theatre next. Someone saw it and perceived that they were doing something wrong. Therefore, they felt thatthey can preventtheperception of "wrong doing" by banninga positive activity.My perception is that banning movies because ofwhat mightbe misconstrued, is a very un-Christian way to live (should they not minister to those in the inner-city slums because someone may think they are buying drugs there?). ScoutMomSD, I hope we can provide you with some positive feedback, and hopefully we can influence your perception of what may be seen asevil in Scouting.

But the 1981 was most current one I attended!