Buffalo Skipper

Well, lots to digest, and my heart has been very heavy over this all week. The consequences of these boy's actions will be significant and multifaceted. However, for the moment, I am asking specifically about how to handle the issue of Scout Spirit. Clearly, this is not to be signed off, but neither scout is ready to advance. One aspect of this (there will be additional consequences) will be a Scoutmaster conference, and I intend to formulate a 3 month plan of showing improvement. How can I phrase this? Do I say something like: "I have to see that you don't use racial slurs for 3 months." That kind of leaves the wrong impression, in my book (it's OK 3 months from now, but not between now and then). This is what I was trying to ask earlier when I was talking about implementing a "zero tolerance rule." I have some other ideas which I may discuss here further, but I need to run them by the Committee Chair and CoR first. I do not doubt that I will have their support, but I feel I need to their blessing before I act, to ensure a cooperative front on this issue. Nothing could be more devisive than acting without having the committee back up my decisions. Both CC and CoR are veteran scouters (15+ years each), Eagle Scouts, and, both have Eagle sons (from our troop); neither of them have had youth in the troop for many years (creepy, isn't it?). My point being that they are experienced, knowledgable and have great perspective.

I spent several winters in Germany working Base Ops in the Air Force. One of my job was to determine the runway conditions and to "scientifically" measure the slickness of the surface when there was snow and ice present. This was done by driving down the runway in a full size 1982 Dodge van, build up speed to 30 miles per hour, intentionally lock the brakes, then while skidding down the runway, take my eyes off the "road" and read the decelerometer between the front seats, to determine how "quickly" I was slowing down. This had to be done every 500-1000' on a runway which was 10,000' long. The worst condition I every experienced was an IR 5 (Ice on Runway, deceleration at 5' per second). In these conditions, helicoptors were not allowed to operate! My girlfriend at the time worked in the tower, and the would regularly take bets as to whether I would flip the van. I don't really mind the ice, but I stay off it because I cannot trust those around me.

Rumor has it that the National Guard has been called out to retore order and to protect the public (from itself). Nothing is quite as interesting as the spectacle: "Southerners on Ice."

I sat down with Joseph last night. It was hard for him to talk about what was said, he kept his head down and talked softly; it took a bit of coaxing to get the story out. I made sure to commend him on his bravery, and I explained how difficult I know that decision to be to come talk to me. Afterward I thanked him for opening up and trusting me. I told him that I would deal with the issue directly, and that if there were any additional words spoken, he was to come to me and tell me right away. Our talk revealed only one unexpected fact: that it did not involve our troubled scout whom I described earlier, but his younger brother, who is First Class (eligible for Star in 28 days), as well as the SPL (Life about to begin on his Eagle, will be 18 in 13 months). Though the statements were made callously, as I suspected, and on the surface did not appear to be malicious in nature. I did speak to our outgoing SM about this, and he revealed that both these boys had been counseled on this exact issue regarding another black boy who who left the troop 3 years ago, putting this in a completely different light. I am considering, at this point, involving the boy's parents, and placing the boys "on notice." Bringing up the other boy, whom I did not know, and with the original occurance being handled verbally, I see no value in reviving that sepcific issue, but it does raise the bar in how I deal with these two. My thought is to set a plan for these boys before any advancement can be signed off, say 3 months (under the auspices of "scout spirit"). I am, however, at a loss of how to quantify improvement in this area. Setting a zero tolerance policy is never a good idea, in my book, but I do not know how else to evaluate compliance. My situation is complicated in several other ways as well. First, we have a hike this weekend, and these boys will have to work together (all 3 involved are attending, as is the father of the SPL). I feel it is important to address this issue with the offending boys before we depart tomorrow night, and I will. Second, officially, as of this moment, I am not the SM. Our outgoing SM has health issues (beginning with a medical proceedure later this morning), and is a well respected mentor to all these boys. At lunch today, I will turn in the signed applications for me to become the SM and he to assume the position of ASM. Likewise, I will not be "installed" until the COH this Monday. This change is no secret, and I have been the functioning SM on 2 of the last 3 campouts, and at all the recent PLCs, and most troop meetings. Certainly, the scouts recognize me as the upccoming unit leader, but being embroiled in a situation like this right away is challenging at best.

bacchas, The only reason to hold back advancement is...not having completed the requirements. Intentionally deciding to hold back a POR to keep a scout from advancing is like telling a new scout, we aren't going to have any first aid instruction in the troop until next year, because we don't have time to teach you that now. I am glad to see that you, as a COR, are taking an interest in this and will act on it. That is the way it should be, but from my experience, it is uncommon for a COR to pony up to that aspect of their duties. Keep up what you are doing.

rjscout, We have done the same thing in our pack, that is present an award once, and recognize the award (or belt loop) on subsequenet occurrences of the award being earned. We invite parents to purchase multiple belt loops, if they like, but he pack only buys the award the first time.

Thank you all for your kind responses and support. As many of you said, I should take a stance that this shall not be tolerated, and I cannot agree with you more. I also appreciate the level at which you suggest I respond (not react). Not yet having all the details, I cannot exactly say what the response will be, but will be direct. This not an issue by which I mean to polarize the troop, its members or its supporters. Interestingly, 20 minutes before Joseph called me, I was talking to him about working with a Webelos den (as a Den Chief). This particular den has a 50/50 mix of white/black boys, and I felt his example was one by which all the entire den could learn and be proud. I noticed immediately that he was distracted and I tabled the discussion, suggesting he think about it and we could discuss it at a later date. I now understand his distance. It has been suggested that the offending scouts may not have had ill intent, and I believe this is likely true (I do not like to speculate like this yet, as I still do not have all the details, so ultimately, this remains to be proven). Though this is a different ball of wax than intentional malicious slurs, it deserves as swift a response, and needs to be halted directly; yet I do feel that these scouts should be made keenly aware that, regardless of intent, this behavior can be very damaging. SSScout brought up that this is a form of bullying, and I had that thought last night (thinking about the post of this title in Working with Kids). And I am considering handling this as a case of bullying. Any additional comments on this would be insightful. As for the offending scouts, I would describe both as suburban middle class or better, and I am unaware of any overt racism at home. One of the boys has had a uniquely difficult family life (details would be inappropriate), and he holds a lot of anger (understandably, given his circumstances). As such, I do not want to further alienate him by over-reacting, but neither do I want to let him slip off without consequences. I feel I have little wiggle room with him. And I appreciate the concern expressed about the possibility of losing Joseph. I think that we do run the risk of losing him, but only if we ignore or mishandle the issue, and that is something I will not allow to happen. As soon as I have the facts secured, I will quickly assess the situation (and the damage) and work to resolve it. We have a special meeting on Wednesday and we have a hike this weekend. I will attempt to resolve this before the hike, so there are no problems on the trail, but I will keep an eye on things as we move along.

I need some advice on how to handle a situation in our troop. Allow me to provide you with some brief background. Our troop is all white, with the inclusion of one black scout, whom I will call Joseph. Joseph has been in the troop for nearly 2 years, and was in my Cub Scout pack for the two years prior to that. His father is in jail for shooting his mother and grandmother (both survived). It was shortly after this that he joined as a Webelos. He is a walking example of the scout law: Reverent, Loyal, Trustworthy, Kind, Obedient; he lives by this at meetings and in his daily life. He serves as patrol leader and, unlike most others in the troop, takes his responsibility seriously. He is the only scout in the troop to have not missed a meeting (or outing) this year. With 3 more Josephs, I would have the best troop in the council!(I hope it is obvious to everyone that I am very proud of him.) Last night, after the meeting, I received a call from Joseph. He was upset and said that he was loosing interest in coming to the meetings because many of the boys were teasing him and making racial slurs. In the 4 years I have known him, I have never heard him make a racial or counter racial remark, so I took this very seriously. I was devastated, and it really shook me. I told him that I would not tolerate this behavior in the troop, and that I wanted to sit down with him (and will tomorrow evening) to discuss details of what was said and by whom. He had called me on my cell phone and I was driving, so I tried to reassure him and said we would speak Wednesday. When I got home, I called to speak to his mother, whom I know and trust. It was she who insisted that Joseph call me, and I was glad that she did. She said he had been visibally upset and not himself; I do notbelieve he would have called without her encouragement. I told her how I was going to proceed and when Joseph and I would be meeting to discuss the details. I know he will be reluctant to be specific (and embarrassed), but I asked her to encourage him to be open with me on this. Joseph did suggest who was making these comments, and I was not surprised. (Allegedly) It came from two of our older life scouts, one of whom is the SPL. These two can be casually insensitive at times, though I do not believe maliciously so. Regardless, I take this very seriously, and I feel I should act swiftly, and decisively; but I feel it needs a measured response. I know it will be tomorrow night before I get all the details, but please give me advice on how strong a response I should have. Should it just be a stern SM conference? Do I need to involve the committee? Should I discuss this with the boys parents? Is it acceptable to just nip this in the bud, so to speak, or should I act more strongly? I look forward to your advice and insights.

Our council Venturing Chair was a part of the team re-writing the Leader Training syllabus, and also had a heavy hand in most of the material for the Vector course, which had it's pilot debut in our council back in April. Vector, for those who are unaware, is a weekend leadership training program--not training to be a leader, training to be a leading trainer; I dislike comparing it to "Train-the-Trainer," but this does convey the topic effectively. I have seen these materials, and am impressed with what was done. I have, however, heard that many of the recomended changes (both courses) were met with much resistance at the highest levels of the program. In fact, some people have dismissed the whole of the Vector course as being a skill wholly unnecessary for Venturers (I know, that's like saying it is inappropriate for boy scouts to spend their time learning "camping" skills!). As a result, I fear these programs may, at best, be delayed in their implementation. I am not an insider with this information, but I do get it from a reliable source.

MissingArrow, Thanks for the play by play. I sure hope they get it. I hope enough of us went in and voted to give them the edge....

Of course "Monthly Program Forum" is correct, and by no means is it a big deal, just a curiousity.

As Venturing Rountable has been disolved and replaced with "Venturing Forum," will BSA issue a new POR without the word "Roundtable" on it?

As a scout in 1981 I attended the National Jamboree, the year it made a brief stop at Ft. AP Hill. Our contingent troop was "required" to purchase at least one complete ODL uniform, which had just been made available. It was always my assumption that this was a national requirement, not a council policy. These uniforms were used for specific activities on certain days. Owning several older green shirts, we resisited the idea of the ODL shirts with a vengence, but we never mixed shirts and pants. (You think todays crowd is in an uproar over the new uniforms? This is NOTHING compared to the cries of outrage over the ODL unifrom--and we didn't have the interenet over which we could broadcast our objections!) I had one standard green uniform, and several older green uniforms (60s/early 70s?). I liked the older shirts much better. They had pleated pockets and a stitched button front (I don't know the term for that). It wore better and looked sharper (100% cotton, of course). I still own all 4 of these uniform shirts (2 old green, one later green, and the original ODL). I would likely wear these uniforms still, if I was 60 lbs lighter. Interstingly, the original ODL shirt had that stitched button front like the 60s/e70s style green shirt, which wears better than the loose one on today's shirts. But back to Liz's original inquiry/comment. The requirement to puchase a new uniform for a council level "contingent" unit is not unpressendented. I believe it is intended to give a measure of "validity" to the new uniform and encourage others to want to wear it. On the other hand, I was on camp staff that year prior to the jamboree and we had no requirement to have the new shirt. Our troop will "change" to the new epaulettes and numbers after the new year. This way when the Webelos crossover (and have to buy the OD epaulettes) we will all look uniform; the difference in the sleeve pocket or material will hardly be noticable. I have 5 of the pre-centennial shirts. It will be some time before I feel the need to replace any of them, but it might be nice to have one of these for summer camp.

CubPack28, I was not suggesting you give away the items in your closet; I was simply relating that that was what we do. We are blessed with good (anonymous) doners who keep our scholarship fund around $1000, and we are able to maintain 2-3 times that in our general fund. We buy all our pack's awards, put on a stylish Blue and Gold and we try to be generous with our scholarships. In the past 2 years, the school from which we draw our scouts has become more diverse, sepecially in the affluence of the families attending. With this in mind it is regretable that too many of our parents (even the ones who leave the pack "prematurely") are sentimental about their uniforms and rarely give them back to the pack. I would be interested in seeing our pack's uniform closet grow. I have threatened to rearrange and build a more efficient rack, but that hasn't happened yet. Maybe I will have the time during the Christmas break....

oldsm, Check to see if your district purchases the trainers pack. It has all the training material for all scout leader training from Cub Scouts to Varsity and Venturing (though not Sea Scouts, the scoundrels!). Anyway, I believe this video is in the Venturing packet. I am able to use the is when we conduct Venturing Leader Training. It is an excellent video aid, by the way.

When I first read about organizing a uniform closet, I thought you were talking about how to organize all your scouts in the closet. I assumed I was not the only one with more than half a dozen uniforms and more activity shirts; sometimes I disagree with my wife as to what hangs where...LOL. When I got to the second paragraph, I realized this was meant for a cub scout pack recycling uniforms. Oops. But I can add to that also. We have a very small uniform cache with our pack, despite the fact that it has been discussed to expand it. We are able to turn around uniforms as soon as they are donated, and we do not charge if there is a family in need. I do like your ideas about giving a dues discount. That's good. I will propose this to our committee next week.

SMT224, As these are likely older boys, you may want to consider some Venturing games (very unlike reindeer games, which are known to be exclusive) Here is a good link: http://97.66.88.42/bsa/VenturingDistrictAndCouncil/Here'sVenturingCD/MonthlyProgramForum/ACTIVITIESGAMES.htm (you may have to cut/paste the link, as the ' breaks the code in on the browser)

Who is late? Yes, it is mostly the older scouts. Often these scouts drive themselves to meetings, and they see fit to arrive when is convenient. We have a few who are involved in sports and theatre, but never did I intend to include them in this group. I am really talking about scouts who just wander in when they please. One of these scouts who drives is sometimes brought by his dad, and ususlly shows up later when his dad drives him. And I am not talking about activities here, only troop meetings. The local school district changed times for middle and high schools this year to initiate savings in bus costs. Our middle schoolers get out at 4:30 and sometimes do not get dropped off at home until 5:30, making 6:00 pm Friday departure times for weekend activities difficult. You know, I just though about this. The PLC decided upon 6:45 back in March when HS was released at 2:30 pm; with the new schedule HS is out at 3:30. That may be part of the problem. If we have Webelos crossovers, then from March-May, these elementary boys must be at school by 7:15 am, so I don't want to push it too late. Maybe a simple 7-8:30 would be enough. BW, you asked about pre-opening activities. I am a strong proponent of this. However, I might add that I expect this to be a boy-organized and boy-led activity. When the SPL shows up right at meeting start time (on good days) with nothing in hand, this has not been something I have been able to get the youth leaders to take ownership of. Beavah, you talked about an incentive. Can you give some examples of what we might try here? I used an incentive on uniforming last year and that worked all right, but I would like to try something else here. Any ideas on this?(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Yes, you are right. Bylaws are not about what most troops employ them as. And yes, I agree that they are not necessary (convincing the committee of that is a different matter). I will review that section of Robert's Rules of Order tonight. Prehaps it should be defined as you say as a "Troop Policies document." I did do a poor job ofexplaining my reference to Venturing bylaws. What I should have said is that there is nothing in any Boy Scout (troop) literature suggesting or requiringa troop (committee) shouldadopt bylaws, whereas this is encouraged for crews. Thanks for the good and accurate information. This will help me as I revise this old troop document.

Beavah, thanks for the perspective of "what are bylaws." I have had an idea of bylaws based on what I have seen, and it is nothing like what you described (that's not to say you're wrong, only that I had not looked at it that way before). I have looked at a dozen or two websites with troop bylaws posted. Most cover everything you said: from dues and attendance to PLC defined and elections, from committee descriptions to BoR schedule, and from defined membership to discipline. Many are dozens of pages long, either quoting or re-writing what is specified in a variety of scouting publications. One even defined exactly how many ASPLs, Troop Guides and Instructors the troop was to elect; not a real flexible document, that one. Is this really necessary? Not in my opinion, it has already been defined by BSA. Neither the PLC, Troop committee, nor the CO have any authority to change that. But even with that strong a statement, I am not saying that a troop should not have bylaws. There are some things that I feel should be clarified. I found one interesting site which had a conduct policy (Article 1? of the troop bylaws) which quoted word-for-word the Scout Law and it's description. That goes back to the original thread off of which this was spun. Another discussed (and this is what bylaws should be, in my opinion) activities and policies, such as dues, participation (based on current dues), transportation expectations for parents, and troop equipment policies (checked out by patrol). It also talked about website policies and photos of youth (another important issue) and how that was handled. Shouldn't that cover it? If you want to define how to run a committee, buy Robert's Rules of Order, and leave a copy on the table while you meet (I leave mine in the car, but always bring it). Venturing (and Sea Scout) bylaws are not the samething at all, being defined and specified in BSA documents, and are to be written and approved by the youth members. But as I said when I began the thread, that is a horse of a different color.

OK, here's a hotbed topic. Troop (not Venturing or Sea Scout) Bylaws. A little digging in our old troop files uncovered 2 different copies of our troop bylaws dating back 12+ years (before the days of electronic copies). There has been some debate about updating these and storing them on our new (now 5 year old) computer. Why should we have them? What should they cover? Dues? Equipment fees? Registration expectations? Participation? Website policies? PLC responsibilities? Conduct? Punishment? Or should they be done away with entirely? If you use bylaws, how do you "enforce" them? If you don't, what do you do "instead"?

PL and any scout of Star or higher rank can sign off requirements for T-2-1 (except the last 3 reqs and the swim req for 1st). S-L-E are to be signed off by SM or ASM (again except the last 3 which are done by SM and Committee). Not too complicated.

Our troop is ordering several ALPS Cascade backpacks for our scouts. We ordered one in advance and fitted it to several scouts. For most, we ordered a small belt (they can grow into the medium as they age). Can anyone comment on these packs? Any quirks, concerns or tricks to fitting them well?

The inside joke of the Florida panhandle is that we are sometimes referred to as "LA" (lower Alabama). We camp across Alabama at least once or twice a year. For local trips, we sometimes show up at the Gulf State Park in Gulf Shores. It has taken a beating with hurricanes recently, but I have camped here since I was a Webelos. Every 2nd or 3rd year, we hike a section of the Pinhoti trail near Cheaha State Park. Rugged area--great backpacking experience; thirty years ago as a scout my troop hiked 20+ miles of the Odom trail. We also use the facilities in the Conecuh National forest, including (as we hike a lot) the Conecuh Trail. Before I was with the troop, they used to go up to Lake Martin every year for an island campout, filled with watersports and excitement. This was one of the most popular trips we used to take, acording to the stories. Alas, the leader whose family owns the island left the troop. Just across the state line (SE of Auburn) is FDR State Park in Georgia, another great destination. This area is much more rugged than one would expect for central Georgia. We hike (surprised, aren't you) the Pine Mountain Trail there on years opposite the Pinhoti Trail. Last year we had 3" of snow, and temps in the upper single digits. For a bunch of Florida boys, it was tough, and they are insisting that this year's long hike be in a wamer climate zone. (This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

A couple of other things to consider. If the "sponsor" is the Charter Organization (which I presume it not to be), then that would be a completely different ball of wax. Remember, in reality the trailer is owned by the Charter Organization, not the troop. Second, instead of overt advertising, consider a "PBS like" acknowledgement such as visibally in small print "funding for the Troop 500 trailer provided by XYZ Electronics." Either way, run this by the District fundraising subcommittee for approval.