Eagle1993

Does anyone know if abuse lawsuits against a CO have succeeded in the past or have they been successful with BSA providing coverage? I haven't heard any; however, even the cost of litigation is extremely expensive. The CO model has been weak for a long time. These lawsuits will likely be the death of the traditional CO.

Pretty cool way to introduce Scout Life. I wasn't expecting it until I saw it open.

I went to a college with a NA mascot. Before school started, I attended an orientation day. The student leaders brought us to the football stadium and there were NA protestors outside. We walked past and inside the stadium the student leaders said that our mascot was fully supported by most NAs and only a small group protests. They said that our NA symbol (not mascot) performed a dance and in a costume that was authentic. I was disappointed by the protestors and believed in the university. Fast forward to half time at the first football game I attended. Out comes our mascot. I looked at his regalia and was a bit suspicious. Then his dance started and I was shocked. It looked nothing like anything I had seen. After the game, I did some research and found the regalia as not native to our area. The dance was not authentic at all. Many native groups were not fans and I had been lied to. As a boy scout, I earned Indian Lore MB, I was in OA and went to pow wows. Had I not had that experience, I probably wouldn't have had the background to understand NA history. I'm not arguing that BSA is 100% correct and I agree they should relook at OA lodges, ceremonies, MB content. That said, I would not support eliminating all of it. I think teaching NA history and rituals is important. I would suggest BSA work with NA organizations and tribes. If a tribe works with an OA lodge on a ceremony, that would be approved. NA groups should help update our Indian Lore MB. The benefit to NA groups is a wider group that understands the history and culture of NA tribes. Again, I know BSA isn't perfect, but it was the only organization/group I was part of that helped provide exposure to NA culture. I would love to see that improve and not eliminated.

Our Troop is down the past two years; however, I think part of that is losing low/no attendance scouts from our roster. In the past, our Troop meeting attendance was around 40 - 50%. Yesterday it was well over 80%. We used to have some 1 campout only scouts … they are dropping. So, I'm not too concerned with Covid impacts on our Troop, we have been able to manage and I see the light at the end of the tunnel. The pack is a disaster. We are still going through recharter, but I expect we will end up down 75%. I just talked with a den leader who is dropping. Eagle scout, energized but has no desire to lead a den during Covid. He said he will return with his son after Covid. I think what attracts scouts to Cub Scouts is getting together, in person, working on fun projects, going on hikes & overnights, pinewood derby, etc. Advancement provides minimal to no motivation. Our school is hybrid, so kids get a ton of zoom meetings and have no desire for more. I told my DE that my goal is simply unit survival at this time (at the pack level). As long as we have enough leaders to get to next fall, we will recruit heavy and I expect within 1 - 2 years or so we will recover. I do think this will damage the Troop over a few years … but both Troop & Pack are large enough to survive.

I probably should have stated "there is a rumor that …". @gpurlee started the thread and if there are questions, I would recommend posting in that thread as he/she is more likely to be able to answer them.

I think BSA can and should remain volunteer led, but will be much smaller than the past. I think the BSA organization will need to resize (shrink) as I think society changes are a major headwind. I do wonder if there is a place for a paid staff led outdoor leadership "scouting" type program. I'm not sure, but do wonder. A program that would charge large per year fees + fees for trips, etc. It would be led by professionally trained staff (perhaps former scouts who were college grads with expertise in outdoor education, forestry, citizenship, etc.). They would run Troops/Packs/etc. One could even see Packs running daily after school programs … essentially taking the place of child care. Troops would be closer to how Troops should operate today, just with professional staff leadership. I'm not stating this is the correct direction, but I do wonder if there is a market for this type of organization.

19 pages of emails to inform all of the groups of claimants … wow, this has grown.

BSA is coming up with a new charter option. I'd recommend reviewing this thread for more details. I did see on Facebook that a United Methodist Church dropped their charter; however, others were indicating their churches were still planning on signing charter agreements.

If CO's have money, they will be at financial risk going forward regardless of wording. I question, long term, if any charter org would be really interested in the traditional model. Especially after they start seeing the waves of lawsuits in 2021 as the lawyers are able to start documenting Troops/Packs/COs/Councils. Once the pull the meat from the bones of National BSA, they will descend on the rest. The legal fees & bad press will be tough to handle. I expect the charters dropping now are simply the first wave. We had a "Friends of CO" that we ended this year. I talked with the individuals (parents) who were running the "CO". I asked them if they had consulted lawyers to understand their legal liability if something went wrong with the Troop. Blank stares. I asked them how much insurance they had and if, as leaders of the CO, they were ready to be listed as defendants in future lawsuits if something went wrong. Blank stares. I asked them why we didn't simply use a fraternal org … I was told "control/not sure". I began these discussions after talking with an attorney about what would happen if a scout got Covid at one of my outings (it went beyond Covid to any serious injury). He told me that we would sue everyone and let the courts work out the mess. After these discussions there was quick agreement to end the "Friends Of" and go with a traditional CO (a fraternal organization). I think we were lucky to have one, I wonder if it will continue next year. For those running Friends of Troop or Pack xxx COs going forward, I would be careful and recommend consulting an attorney and insurance agent if you plan to continue.

This looks new "Actively participate in the local councils annual giving campaign and product sales to ensure quality Scouting throughout the community. (ex. Friends of Scouting campaign, popcorn, camp card, etc.) " I wonder if the sales become mandatory going forward (like Girl Scout Cookies).

This is what I never realized until my last round of youth protection training. I had always thought the predators were simply scout leaders who had that perversion and acted on it. I never realized that many likely joined scouts with this intent in mind. I still get chills (disgusted) when I realize this. I will say, this knowledge really helped me explain to others why we must rigorously enforce barriers to abuse. I always thought there were two reasons (protecting youth from abuse and protecting adults from false charges). However, there is a 3rd reason … scaring away any sexual predator from even joining scouts as they see they will not have an opportunity and would be quickly discovered. One final point, I will say there are definitely abusers who are parents. I personally know 2 individuals that were sent to prison for child porn. Both were parents. In addition, my nephews ASM's husband, not involved in scouting, was caught sexually abusing two little girls he would baby sit. He was a friend of my father and my dad was clearly in shock. No one had a clue this could be happening. I think these serve as a reminder to me that the barriers to abuse must be enforced as you never really know. My one concern is that we overcorrect. I do not want any child abused; however, I also want youth to have opportunities I believe can mold them into strong adults. I am concerned that over litigation could drive many youth organizations out of business. If there are real gaps that could lead to abuse, they should be addressed. What I would like to avoid is changes that do not necessarily make the program safer, but are simply added to prevent litigation.

I still question if admitting girls was a response to the LDS leaving. The LDS had to be working on their alternate program for years and I expect informed the BSA of their decision well ahead of any public announcements. Giving the timing, it seems like the BSA added girls as they knew they would be losing LDS membership. Would be interesting to hear the details once they all come out. Covid has devastated our Pack. Our Troop shrank by 24% but our Pack will shrink by 80%+. I expect we will recover some next fall when we can return to normal … but it will take 2 - 3 years to get back to our original membership, if at all possible. That said, Covid & the lawsuits while massive impacts, may simply be pulling in the end date of the BSA. If BSA was healthy going in, I'm sure it could survive both. The real issue is that BSA has been in decline for decades. In my area, the groups that seem to be expanding have hired staff. Travel sports have paid coaches. After school programs have paid staff. Non BSA overnight week long summer camps cost $800+ but have well compensated staff, cabins and nice equipment. Their commonality …. no or limited time commitment from parents. Volunteer organizations that thrived in the 1900s are dying in the 2000s. I wonder if this is a symptom of 2 income households. Moms and dads both working and then are expected to both share in household activities after work. Neither have time/energy to spend with volunteer organizations (like Boy Scouts, youth sports, etc.). This isn't true 100%, but finding good volunteers is tough these days. I wonder if it was a model that worked well in the past but doesn't work well going forward and also explains the decline of the fraternal orders. Look at the rise in dual income households since 1960. While BSA membership has other causes & effects, I expect this was a huge headwind.

I do not believe any got Covid from this event. I was getting pressure from some adult leaders to move all online, but left it up to the PLC. In a split vote, we have decided to proceed with an in person Troop meetings for December. Outdoors with masks. Patrols separate & everyone socially distant. If you could do it, outdoor patrol activities sounds like a great idea.

Actually this is not fully true. The plan is that there will be a large pot of $. Once there is agreement on the size of the settlement, there is a panel that will decide what each victim gets. That will vary by the length of time since the action & severity of the incident. There will be vetting of the claims, but given the age of many of these, I'm not sure how much vetting could take place. I'm not arguing against tort reform (I think there should be reform & statue of limitations should be in place).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/11/19/boy-scouts-bankruptcy-abuse/ Having trouble copying quotes from the article. (Using work computer and copy/paste into websites is difficult). Attorney for insurance company is questioning if the law firms reviewed the claims and is indicating it will take time to go through the 95,000 248 of 253 councils have now provided details regarding their assets & insurance local council attorney indicating that councils will be involved via their insurance companies he also said that plaintiffs will not be happy as many donors & properties have restrictions, preventing disposition he went on saying he thinks they will settle; however, he went on to say if they fail to settle BSA and "scouting" will likely fail and most if not all local councils will cease to exist in current form plaintiff attorney is saying more people continue to call post filing deadline. He said this will cascade for years as they are now planning lawsuits against local councils, churches, fire departments, rotary clubs and other sponsoring organizations. They plan to sue everyone linked to scouting and these cases. Talking with my wife tonight … (she is fairly liberal so would generally lean against large organizations) ... She doesn't buy the number … she expects many are just looking for $ She is questioning why their parents didn't do anything if it was that severe. She believes this could kill many youth organizations … nothing is 100% safe and if that is the expectation, then nothing can exist for kids except hanging out with their parents.

I plan to carry on. I still believe in the BSA program and enjoy working with my Troop. I know there were sins in the past and we must atone for them, but if I think the work we do today is important and impactful. I grew up in scouting in the 80s and early 90s and it provided some of the best experiences in my youth. I want to provide that to today's youth. I hope BSA survives, especially with council camps, but will find another way if it doesn't.

For me, its not panic, but more of a sad realization. I thought the numbers would be closer to 7 - 10K and believed BSA could survive. I have a hard time seeing a path forward with the numbers we are seeing now. I agree much of scouting can be done without council owned camps … but summer camp, typically the activity that our scouts enjoy the most will be difficult to do. If BSA folds, I'll likely get a group started with BPSA or another organization. If BSA survives we will continue as is. In the end, we will move on … but it will sting. As SM, I have two immediate concerns. One concern is about the two crews we have going to Philmont and if they would get refunds if Philmont is sold. They got bumped this summer due to Covid, it would be tough to see them lose out on this. Most know the risk, I just hope they get in before the end. The other concern was raised by a parent yesterday. Their kids (Life scouts) were listening to the news about the BSA and have now lost some of that pride they have at being members of the BSA. He talked them up … but this is tough to hear. I'll talk with the scouts … they already get some garbage from classmates about being in Boy Scouts, this won't help. BSA was in court today and it was not good news. Perhaps they are playing hardball to scare the plaintiffs. Summary per Bloomberg: BSA says they need to settle by Summer or they will fail (they are running out of liquid assets to survive). Insurance company attorneys essentially said nope, its going to take them a long time to figure this out. Victim attorneys said probably not, but if BSA & councils sell everything and give them all of their money and they will settle. Attorneys for the local councils stated that if BSA fails, they will take most of the funds and victims will be left with $0.

If councils go down, will this change come into play? Would all Troops/Packs/Crews essentially go "bankrupt" and their funds go over to the council (unless proof exists that it was raised by registered members of the CO)? https://www.scouter.com/topic/32361-troop-assets/?tab=comments#comment-518054

That will be terrible if/when it comes. I'm still hopeful that councils are mostly spared … I think BSA has a good case they are separate. Just thought of another issue … I hope the lawyers don't find out about scout accounts. Little Billy's wreath sales fund will end up helping some New York lawyer buy a 3rd boat.

@Eagledad You may be right and as a 3rd generation Scoutmaster, I hope you are correct. I did take a look at GM's bankruptcy and the new GM purchased the trademark of GM from the old GM. So essentially, BSA would pay the bankruptcy settlement the rights to use their trademarks going forward. Interesting interview on PBS. https://www.pbs.org/video/abuse-in-the-scouts-1605649565/ PBS NewsHour interview with Timothy Kosnoff, plantiff attorney. He is saying that BSA will liquidate very soon (within a few months). Given their revenue streams have dried up due to Covid, and 100,000 claims, they will not have a path back as a viable business and will have to liquidate. He also stated this includes liquidation of all council assets as well. I don't see this … but … I guess that is probably the worst case scenario. He did not request all current volunteers be jailed, so I have that going for me.

https://time.com/5912452/boy-scouts-sexual-abuse-bankruptcy/ This would not be a shock if we leave BSA and Boy Scouts of America names/brand. It is completely damaged. If you look at our camps, many were from wealthy donors (private & corporate). I doubt any corporation will want their name associated with BSA or Boy Scouts of America going forward (even after bankruptcy). Even private donors may hesitate. We will continue to need donations to maintain what remaining camps we have and that may need a new brand. My only concern here is some comments by child abuse "experts" is that he Boy Scout model of a few adults taking groups of kids in the woods is not safe. If those groups win, and we essentially move to family camping, the true benefits of Boy Scouts are lost. Unfortunately, I think they win by requiring high numbers of adult to youth ratios.

Agreed, but no one is going to back the BSA now. Expect the exact opposite. I think everyone (lawyers, politicians, etc ) will extract their pound of flesh. I wonder if our national charter survives.

It seems like the big, big question is if the court sees the councils as completely independent organizations OR part of the overall Boy Scouts of America. At this point, I think National will have to sell off all assets including the HA camps … nothing will be left other than the structure/program. I see no way they keep anything given the # of claims. The battle line will move to council assets. I wonder if this is a way to protect councils post bankruptcy without including council properties as part of the payout. Curious as it seems like nearly all councils have filed claims now.

NPR now reporting that over 88,500 have filed claims. Deadline in 1 hour. Sounds like the next step is a 3rd party will review all of these claims to see which are valid. A plaintiff lawyer is warning other youth organizations they better get ready and use the BSA as a warning message.