Ranman328

The Scouter Forum was a place I could come to for advice in Scouting, sadly, lately all it has become is a forum to bash others and to turn their words around to bash some more.  I am sad that all the changes in Scouting have resulted in other Scouters feel the need to berate other Scouters and make fun of their posts.  People would start a post talking about one subject and others would make sure they change the subject to enable them to push their views.  God forbid you site a BSA Regulation or Policy.  That will get turned around into something that doesn't look anything familiar to what your post was.  I hope things change on this page as it was a good place to get help.  I will not be coming back as I have been beat up enough and for some reason the moderators do not feel the need to step in.  Good Luck to all you Lifelong Scouters out there that truly love and enjoy the program.  I for one will continue to keep my Troop moving in the direction that Lord Baden Powell envisioned.

On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 5:17 AM, Pale Horse said:

Dude! Please tell me you're joking.

Ranman328:  Posts something.

DavidCO: Quotes your post in his reply.

Ranman328: "Tell me where I said that."

lol

First off my name isn't "Dude"  Please show some respect and no I am not joking!!!!!  I never said what he said I did and the Quote proves that as he still has not showed where I said that.  I said disciplinary regarding the revocation of a Membership.  I said nothing about a knife violation or two scouts getting in a fight or not agreeing with their patrol leader.  I am so sick of you people taking everyone's posts out of context and adding your own spin and then bashing them.  I thought you people were Scouts and Scouters.  You act like a mob culture.  Again  Show me where I said it!!!

2 hours ago, David CO said:

 

Yes, that is what you said. It isn't true.

Please show me where I said that!!!!

2 hours ago, David CO said:

Their Chartered Organization.

They should have already been contacted immediately after the incident!

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

All I'm looking for is documentation to that effect. The G2SS tells me the unit may revoke membership. That's all.

Honestly, if the G2SS said notify anybody, I would have followed up with our key three to make sure it was done.

Well according to my documentation from our District Scout Executive that @David CO says I should not follow because it is unreliable, yes, you should have notified your District and Council that you revoked a Youth BSA Membership. This apparently protects them as well as others from them re-registering.  Makes sense to me but apparently not to @David CO. 

4 minutes ago, David CO said:

District Executives are not a reliable source of good information. This is a case in point. The Chartered Organization can suspend or revoke a boy's membership in the unit for just about any reason. The CO doesn't even have to give a reason. 

YP violations are not the only reason a scout could be dropped from a unit. For example, a scout could be dropped for not paying his dues. An incident form is only necessary if there was a specific YP incident that brought about the suspension or revocation.

 

So you are telling me I should not contact or use the “PAID PROFESSIONAL SCOUTER” because they are unreliable?  That is a ridiculous statement. Who do you recommend Adult Leaders Contact?  

2 minutes ago, David CO said:

District Executives are not a reliable source of good information. This is a case in point. The Chartered Organization can suspend or revoke a boy's membership in the unit for just about any reason. The CO doesn't even have to give a reason. 

YP violations are not the only reason a scout could be dropped from a unit. For example, a scout could be dropped for not paying his dues. An incident form is only necessary if there was a specific YP incident that brought about the suspension or revocation.

 

Never said they couldn’t revoke or suspend a Scout, I did say they had to notify District and Council. 

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

That just seems to be an incredibly broad and overreaching statement

• If two Boy Scouts have a disagreement over some aspect of an outing and we counsel them, send them to their hammocks for 30 minutes to cool off, the unit has to notify District and Council?
• If you have a Boy Scout that will not cooperate with the youth leadership, after a conference with the SM, decision is made to call parents to come get him, the unit has to notify District and Council?
• If you have a Scout being careless with knife on an outing so an ASM takes the knife, the unit has to notify District and Council?

The requirement (note this one is not in GTSS) that you must notify District and Council of any disciplinary actions taken by the troop to a scout in writing from the council and is somehow agreed to by the units and enforced by the council?  Are there disciplinary action notification commissioners roving about everywhere?

Where are you getting this. I never said any of which you have stated above. I don’t think you would suspend a Scout for a disagreement or a knife incident or not cooperating with youth Leadership. You obviously have no training what so ever if you are going to put something like that in writing and maybe that is the reason why your Teoop would suspend a Scout for that. I suggest you read the Guide to Safe Scouting and review the forms in the back. I never said anything about notifying Council about any disciplinary decision. I said Revoking a Membership. Please read what I wrote before commenting!

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

 

I am not trying to be obstinate. When I counseled our troop regarding our wayward youth, as did others before me, we worked through G2SS:

We read that to mean that the unit may revoke a youth's membership.  I can't find any wording to indicate that the district or council needs to be involved in that revocation ... let alone suspension -- which I think is slightly different. (Thus why I thought it was lame to drop the kid from the charter.)

I'm not saying it's a bad idea to give your unit commissioner a call when these things happen. I'm just saying I can't find a written policy requiring it.

If you have something in writing that I'm not seeing. Do share.

@qwazse why do you always pick and choose partial phrases to fit your narrative. I NEVER said council was to be involved in the suspension process. I said they have to be notified of a suspension. 

2 hours ago, jsychk said:

The Troop suspended my son when they were in an out-of-state camp (10 hours away). They called us to pick him up at around 11 AM on Wednesday. My husband drove over there after work (5 PM). In fact, the other suspended kid's dad was nice enough to pick both (suspended) kids up from the camp and drove in our direction. My husband supposed to meet them somewhere in between and he paid for the hotel reservation (2 rooms) for everyone. According to the BSA policy, the other kid's dad can't sleep in the same room with my kid alone even his son is present. I think at the end my husband just picked my kid up at the hotel, turned around and headed back home in the middle of the night. 

My son was the first time offender. I don't think he got in a fight with the "victim". He was the one who asked the other kid to let him go. From what my son wrote, all the boys were playing a game. The "victim" was "it" & hidden in a tent. When the boys discovered him, he ran away so other kids chased him. One kid caught him and they rolled on the ground. No adult was there and witnessed anything. Each involved kid was interrogated by a leader (who is in active military) alone in the tent. They came up with the conclusion. Two kids were suspended and 4 or 5 other kids were given warning. Parents were called. 

Now, the suspension is over. I just want to learn from this and move on. The kid needs scouting and he wants to go back but just doesn't know where. 

I am very sorry you went through this. As a Scoutmaster and former Unit District Commissioner, I think some Adult Scouters jumped the gun. Ok. Unless there was a previous incident, they should have sat down the Scouts involved with the most Senior Scout and fixed it at camp without sending plScouts home. Suspension is uncalled for.  I suggest you move in and find a troop that actually functions in the Patrol Method. 

15 hours ago, qwazse said:

@Ranman328, you need to visit our troop. Then you'll know at least one.  I've never read anywhere that a committee needs to notify anyone at the district when they decide to suspend a scout. If you have a reference, do share.

Dropping the boy from the charter was a lame move.

Per our District Scout Executive the Guide to Safe Scouting states that if a Scout's membership is revoked for any reason and yes a suspension counts as a revocation, you are to notify Council immediately along with providing the Youth Protection/Membership Incident Information Form.

15 hours ago, qwazse said:

@Ranman328, you need to visit our troop. Then you'll know at least one.  I've never read anywhere that a committee needs to notify anyone at the district when they decide to suspend a scout. If you have a reference, do share.

Dropping the boy from the charter was a lame move.

Per the National Capital Area Council, which is my council, you must notify District and Council of any disciplinary actions taken by the troop to a scout.  Not sure what area you are from but this according to them has been BSA Policy for years.  If a Scout is a first time offender or is involved in a fight, I find it sad that a Troop would just suspend that scout without sitting him and his parents down for a discussion first.  Just my opinion. 

Yes, I agree, some of these responses are scary.  Already knowing from your previous post what happened, I think the punishment was quite drastic and severe.  I don't know any Troop that suspends a Scout without having District involved.  Most problems are handled in house and based on the Troop Guidelines, there should have been at least a warning and discussion with the Parents.  Being removed from Camp early is also a punishment.  My question would be was the camp notified about the removal?  Was your District and or Council notified?  If not, that is another problem.  Maybe this Troop is not that well run with properly trained leaders. I would never want to just dismiss a scout with no help.  Kids today, NEED Scouting.  My two cents would be to go visit new Troops.  Your Son's membership shouldn't have expired until December 31 anyway so they should be able to pull the records back and get him in the system like there was never any interruption.

5 hours ago, Treflienne said:

I'd like to insert a new thought into this discussion.  You know the saying.  "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good".

I'd also like to point out that when the first Boy Scout troops for boys started,  a hundred or so years ago,  none of the scouters had grown up in the program as youth.

What if the choice is between a troop with inexperienced adults who at least think they want to learn,  and no troop at all?   (This may be the case for some of the new girls' troops.)  We have youth wanting to be in Scouting and use the BSA program.   Do we offer them a troop full of inexperienced scouts (them) and inexperienced adults?   Or do we offer them nothing at all?

By the way,  this is one reason why I think that the linked troop idea is a good idea --- so that the experienced scouters in the boys' troop can mentor and help the scouters in the girls' troop.

I disagree.  If BSA wants to push the Girl Programs, they should be ready, willing and able to assist in supporting these "Inexperienced Adults".  Pushing more responsibilities onto the already stretched "Volunteer" Scouters is irresponsible.  They knew this was coming out over a year ago.  They should have planned better and got these adults signed up trained and put into already established Troops to shadow how things are done.  This thread is about an already established Troop with inexperienced Adults that have come in and think they know better than the years long scouters. Honestly, you can't compare the 1907 Scouting Program with the 2017 Scouting program. That is disrespectful to the thousands of Scouters, Adults and Youth that built the program.  I have been pestered relentlessly about a Girl Program at my Charter Organization.  My answer:  I can't get enough adults to come out to my events now, I certainly don't have time to start a new girl Troop.  Again, poor planning on the Councils and Districts.  Maybe if they spent less time on beating up Troops about donating more to "Friends of Scouting" and more time on the new Girl Program, we wouldn't b in as bad of shape.

5 hours ago, qwazse said:

You describe a pure hypothetical, and one that simply does not apply based on facts in evidence. Every event that @CodyMiller351 described made it clear that two or more 21+ers were present.  It's also a problem if they take the boys pistol-shooting, or quad riding, or if they go swimming without qualified supervision. There's a laundry list of such pitfalls a troop -- especially a very small one -- should avoid, but if it looks like the troop is being compliant, bringing up such a list doesn't address any imminent problem.

The imminent problem is an adult who doesn't want to step in line. Honestly, I don't think that has much to do with the young 1st ASM. I think this has to do with a dad who is insecure about how to take care of his boy and how to relate to others, so he is trying to carve out his niche in this group and do things "just so" for the sake of his personal comfort. Most of us have witnessed this in one form or another.

ok whatever.  You just don't get it!

When I was in a Pack, the Pack paid the dues of the leaders.  It was only $15 then.  The Troop I am in now, the adults pay their own way.

16 hours ago, CodyMiller351 said:

We always try to meet that rule as best as we can.  I can’t remember the last time we didn’t have 2 leaders at a Scout function that wee at least 21. 

Here is the problem.  One of your other posts you say there is "No Liability" but the above post suggests you don't always follow YPT rules.  That was my point.  Be careful because BSA will leave you out in the cold the first chance they get if you don't follow the YPT.  I know this first hand.  Our old SM/ASM was forced to quit Scouting, Retire from his Government Job and spend thousands of dollars to defend himself in court.  BSA didn't lift a hand to help.  Just be careful.  My $ .02.

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 10:26 AM, qwazse said:

@David CO and @Ranman328, the letter of the G2SS is not being violated. GrandPaw is the SM with three ASMs, of which @CodyMiller351 is the natural leader by delegation, recognition, and talent. They have enough 21-plus around that they need the "big tent" to keep them all under canvas. The YPT boxes are checked.

Better yet, it seems GrandPaw and the other ASMs regard function over form along the lines that @Oldscout448 and @DuctTape are inclined  to recognize.

I don't know about you all, but when the SM tells me to do something along the lines of "run the troop in my absence", my job is scoutmaster. I get whatever credit or blame comes my way, and it doesn't get passed anywhere else. Same goes for my other ASMs. So, the title is "assistant" but the job is "scoutmaster."

So what's needed here? Ways to help this assistant to become a better scoutmaster. Pretending that molehills are mountains ain't it.

@qwazse, I never said he violated anything.  What I did say is that if it was @CodyMiller351 and one other ASM, it would be a problem. I do not agree with this new YPT rule as I feel if you are over 18 and can serve this country then you can run a Troop or Pack.  I am not sure what the letter of the G2SS has to do with this.

@CodyMiller351, I am going to have to agree with @David CO.  According to BSA regulations you must be 21 years of age to be the Scoutmaster.  With the new YPT2 rules, you wouldn't even count toward the two deep leadership yet as the rules state "two 21 year old registered" adults.  I understand you are doing the job but there is a risk involved.  Trust me when I say this, if something happens and there are only two of you, BSA will not cover or protect you.  I know this by personally watching it happen to an Assistant Scoutmaster with over 40 years of experience in BSA.  You can get a lot of advice here on this forum but I would encourage you to read up of the rules and regulations of BSA before going out.  I only have 15 years of Scouting Experience and I am learning something new all the time.  Good Luck.

Our Troop uses Coleman Sundome 3 ($39 each) and Sundome 4 ($47 each) tents.  I have three Alps Mountaineering (Merimac 2 and 3 and a Taurus 4).  I love the Alps Mountaineering for having two doors but the thin floor material worries me if we used it for the Troop.  We just had to do a Troop re-training on how to maintain equipment.  Each of our Patrols (we have three patrols with 8 Scouts each) has one 4-man and five 3-man tents.  They are responsible for maintaining these tents, which they didn't.  Now, we have four tents that were not aired out and have mold in them.  Guess what, the PL now has to assign a scout to take it home and take it to Laundromat to get the mold out and make sure it is dry before returning it.  The Coleman tents work great for us are several years old and you can get replacement parts cheap.  Many times three boys will stay in one tent and use a second for equipment and changing. 

I have been a stickler for years to wear the uniform.  Now I do not think everyone needs to go out and buy the $40 Scout pants from BSA as I feel they are over priced.  In our Troop,  we refer to "Scout like " pants.  These cargo type pants can be purchased at Walmart, Amazon and various other places for around $15.  Once a Scout gets to First Class Rank, they should think about wearing the complete uniform.  In our Troop, we have Scout Accounts and many fundraisers for the Scouts to earn funds.  We allow the Scouts to be reimbursed for equipment and uniforms items as we know not all families have the funds to purchase these items. 

Is it me or does it seem like this is becoming all about getting the Eagle Badge.  I do believe Lord Baden Powell said "We must change boys from what can I get to what can I give"  I think that says it all.  I am uncomfortable with all the talk about how fast can I get my Eagle.  Maybe go out and learn some very important skills and learn how to become a good leader and quit worrying about what can I get.  Just my $.02

I will have to agree with denibug72.  Our District just had a scout complete his Eagle Project and it was a Flag Retirement Ceremony.  His Father already had over 75 trash bags filled with flags in his garage.  If you google Eagle Projects, you will find some very "thin" projects.  Another Scout in our District installed a single flag pole with 36 bricks in a circle around it.  I think if done right, this project could turn out well.  I do wonder if the old rule about how it helps out the Charter Organization still applies.  But then again, if you have a large Troop, you can only do so many projects.  I have three Eagle Projects coming up and they all depend on the other project being completed. 

7 hours ago, SSF said:

I'm addressing the implication made that 'if one boy does this, all boys are likely to do this.' I'm not defending this particular SPL by any means. What he did was horrendous, but all boys should not be labeled as a threat to girls because this kid can't control himself.

SFF, I would appreciate it if you would not take my comment out of context.  I never said "ALL" boys would do this.  You are going from one end of the spectrum to the other.  The fact is that this was not just one Scout.  Several other Scouts sat by watched and did nothing!  These other scouts are apparently in the PLC.  Please retract your statement.  Thank you!

8 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Where my mind goes is -- how will this boy treat his homecoming date if they are alone, etc?  What if he has a babysitting job or other unsupervised exposure to children?  Unfortunately, behavior like this, especially if undisciplined, can become a pattern.  So the kid needs to be taught the hard lesson now and hopefully it sticks. 

This is kind of where I was going as how are these Scouts going to treat others.  Apparently @SFF doesn't like the fact that I have grouped these boys into a group and has berated me for it but I find it upsetting that an SPL and the PLC would conduct themselves in this manner.  You appear to think along the same lines as me as this can become a behavior and would have probably become worse had they not been caught.