Ranman328

On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 7:44 AM, WisconsinMomma said:

Hi Everybody,

I will just share my experience and perspective from when I was a Cub scout den leader.   We did the requirements in the book to the best of our ability, but since I had no experience with the Boy Scout program, I was not aware of any expectations that the Webelos journey was all about prep for Boy Scouts.  We did the things in the book, which included some things related to Boy Scouts, but that was about it.

Regarding the young man who will be coming into your troop,  take him where he is when he comes in, just as you would take in any other boy with an interest in Scouting.  We need to welcome anybody and everybody to Scouts, and just as you would welcome a man with no Scouting experience, you will meet this Scout where he is. 

11 year olds are young!!  Obviously they are still only just beginning to learn.  The real formation happens in Boy Scouts.

Doesn't your District provide training to your Leaders?  Did your pack provide Leaders with Leader guides?  There are plenty of resources out there to provide additional ideas and activities to the boys other than what is just in the book.  Attaching the Pack to a Troop is also a good idea as you can invite the Troop to participate in events to help the Cubs see older boys in he uniform and help mentor them. 

I never said I would not welcome the new scout in my Troop.  His twin brothers are already in my Troop.  My concern is that the Pack he is coming from is not preparing these scouts and not giving them the Program they deserve.  I find it interesting that a Scout can join Cub Scouts in October 2017 and earn his Bobcat, Webelos and AoL in less than a Year.  This Pack also takes off the entire summer off (June, July, August) which makes it even more difficult as those are the best dates to do outdoor activities.  Here in Virginia, the weather can play havoc with outdoor activities in the spring and fall so summertime is a great time to get the boys out.

When we went through our New Program Training, they were very specific that the AoL program is it's own rank.  It sounds like they have watered down the program even more since I was in it and that was two years ago.  I think the Cub Scout Leaders need to spend more time making sure the boys are ready for Boy Scouts.  I had a Den/Patrol of 12 boys and we finished up at the beginning of February.  We didn't cross over to Boy Scouts until Mid March.  I didn't want them to miss their last Blue and Gold Banquet.  We spend the last month working on having them ready for the Scout Rank in Boy Scouts and refining their Patrol Method skills. 

Good point about Scouts joining in August and September.  I had a Scout join in September so the earliest he could cross over was February.  I wonder what Packs do about that, cross their boys over and leave the new ones behind?

Not a fan of our DE.  This is the second DE we have had in three years.  Both have problems losing adult and youth applications.  I have had to send several through multiple times.  Both got offended when asked about the applicants Personal Identifiable Information being lost.  Last year our District did not come close to meeting our FOS goal of $65,000.00 so they decided to keep it the same this year $65,000.00 again even at the urging of District Volunteers not to have it so high since the District is down 15 units.  We are not even half way there as of today.  During our FOS presentation, our Troop was asked to give at least $100 per scout.  Needless to say, our Troop gave what they could.  Recently, someone told the DE how much money our Troop had in the bank and they sent an email to our Troop's key 3 asking that we donate an additional $2,000.00 to the FOS.  I politely declined and informed them that the money in our Troop bank account was not their business and that the Scouts worked for that money.  We would be reinvesting the funds in our own troop.  I am sure there are some good DE's out there but my experience so far in my 14 plus years of scouting has not been positive.  My experience says they are money driven and there is a short supply of customer service.

Actually, the new program is a two year program.  The AoL is it's own separate rank.  You don't have to earn the Webelos badge to earn the AoL.  I agree, as soon as the boys become Webelos, they should become a patrol and start learning the Patrol Method.  That is what I did.  At the end of their Bear year, they voted on a Patrol name and I ordered their patrol patches and flag which is actually my profile picture.  They all had a chance to be a patrol leader as well as serve other functions within the patrol.  I am not sure how this pack is going to get these boys ready especially since I just found out they take the summer off.  They just had a bridging ceremony telling everyone that it is their last event until September.  What a great way to lose scouts.  I think I am going to invite the Webelos to come out to some of my Troop meetings this summer to participate in some of our events.

Also of note is that this scout just joined Cub Scouts in October of 2017 and received his Webelos rank at the end of January 2018 three months later.  I was in the first group to go through the new Webelos and AOL program.  The new program started when my Cub Scouts went from Bears to Webelos.  I don't see how they are doing it in three months and providing a quality program for these boys.  I have a few scouts in my Troop from the old program that still don't know how to function as a Patrol and can't recite the Scout Oath, Scout Law, and outdoor code properly.  That just tells me that they were not prepared to become boy scouts. 

I agree, I was disappointed at the stripped down AoL program as well.  They really need most of the year to prepare for Boy Scouts.  I am seeing way too many boys coming over to Boy Scouts not knowing the basics.

Question to all you Scouters out there.  I am a Scoutmaster.  I do not have much experience with the new Cub Scout Program.  I have two brothers in my Troop with a third in an Arrow of Light Den in a nearby Pack.  I was notified by the father of the AOL Scout that he would be crossing over to our Troop in October 2018.  I thought that was weird as I was under the impression that the new cub scout year does not start until June 1.  They have to be in the AOL Den for six months.  This would be December, correct?  I just want to make sure this scout doesn't cross over prior to actually earning his AOL and there are not problems with him earning it.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 11:28 AM, cyphertext said:

 

You're not understanding how the draft game works.  It isn't gambling...  the money is used to pay for the cards that are provided.  What your Scouts are doing is playing with cards they brought.  In a draft game, you don't bring your own cards...  new packs are purchased and the players select their cards to build their decks from that pool of cards, the theory being that everyone stars on equal footing.  And at the end of the game, you get to keep the cards you selected.  So basically, you are paying for new cards. In games where you bring your own cards, it can be difficult to be competitive because one player may have bought 5 packs of cards and built his deck from the best of those, and the other player may have bought 100 packs to build a deck. 

I am only going by what the original post states and it states that they think the SPL might be making money on it.  He also does not state how much each Scout is charged but was not comfortable with the amount that was being charged.  Perception is everything.  If someone reported this to their District or Council, it does not look good.  The Scouts in my troop help each other build their decks so everyone is on a level playing field.  They teach each other how to play.  Either way, I would not be comfortable with it unless someone can show all the money is accounted for especially since there seems to be financial with some of the Scouts.  I would never put one of our Scout families in a situation where their scout could not go to an event because they could not afford a "Buy In" to a game.

I would have to agree that this would be considered gambling.  The scouts in our Troop always play this at Lock-In's and campouts.  They have never used money and it does not require money to play. 

17 minutes ago, .40AET said:

 

My apologies. The bottom of the quote was from a news feed, not me. I am not calling them dishonest. Again, I'm sorry and will stay out of this. Today appears to be a bad day. I'm logging off. Best of luck to you and everyone else.

Hey.40AET  do not be bullied into signing off.  Many of the folks on these feeds try to push others into their narrative.  We are all here to express our feelings and opinions.  No one opinion is right.  That is why it is an opinion.  It is neither right or wrong.  To walk away and not express it punishes all others on this page from having an additional opinion to consider.  @ CalicoPenn, I have followed you for some time and agree with a significant amount of your feelings but shame on you for putting down another member's opinion.  I am sure I can go back and find someone doing the same thing to you that you have taken and exception to.  Just my $ 0.02.

Update to the previous Troop.  During our District Commissioner Meeting the other night we were having discussion about a problem Charter Organization and COR.  It just so happens that we have a Venture Crew Leader that moved here from over seas.  He is in the military.  He was assigned the "problem" Troop in early August after the previous problems settled down (he was not aware of most of it).  Things apparently were going well until recently when it was time to do recharter.  The UC had never had any dealings with the CO or COR because they are usually absent.  The COR now wants to get involved in the recharter process.  The CC has been doing the recharter for over 10 years and never had a problem.  Not sure what the exact problem was but the COR contacted the UC many times to complain about the process.  The end result is the new Unit Commissioner has recommended that the Troop find another Charter Organization or the Charter Organization assign a new COR as there is a major disconnect and the Troop is not receiving the resources from the CO that it needs to thrive.  Imagine that, I said that months ago. 

I would think the "we" is rather obvious - those of us that asked for this change.

 

Since you did not support or ask for this change, I am not asking anything more from you.

 

Simple enough, right?

 

Edit: And as far as driving people away - it certainly might and probably will drive some away, just like integration drove some away and the inclusion of gay scouts drove some away. Doing the right thing isn't always immediately popular. It also might drive more to join. It will certainly be a +1 situation in my household. My 9 year daughter was ecstatic to learn of this change. I've already heard from another scout parent in our Troop who also has a 9 year old daughter that is very excited about this change - and both of our daughters are currently Girl Scouts.

Again, I ask who is the "WE" and how are the "WE" going to bring in new members and match or increase the losses that this decision is going to generate.  I wonder if the latest fee increase is geared to have the current BSA members "ME" pay for getting this program started or is it because previous poor decisions have drove membership down so much that they can't pay for the current program? 

My personal challenge to every person that supports this decision - go out and recruit AT LEAST one new volunteer (preferably female) to make this inclusion a success.

 

We asked for this, now let us support it. Take ownership of the success, or the failure.

Hawkwin, who is "We" that asked for this?  Me personally, I am already swamped doing my volunteer work as a Scoutmaster, Merit Badge Counselor and Unit Commissioner, I don't have any more time to spend away from my family to recruit for a decision I don't support.  Our District is already shutting down and merging Venture Crews because of lack of membership and adult volunteers.  This decision is going to further drive people away from the program. 

I think your understanding is incorrect.  The BSA leadership has decided that their salvation, numbers-wise, lies in expanding opportunities for girls to all age levels.  There has been "pressure" about this issue for at least 45 years, and in terms of driving the decision, I think it has amounted to virtually nothing.  National thinks this will draw in many, many more people (including more boys.)  I think the fact that many people in this forum (including me) question whether this is actually going to happen leads some (not including me, and not necessarily including you, Ranman) to conclude that a substantial increase in membership cannot be the motivation, it must be something different.  So the usual suspects of "PC" and "SWJ's" get rounded up, when what we are looking at is an internal, self-interest-motivated decision. 

 

 

I think the real driving force here is letting the girls in at Cub Scout age.  If you watch Chief Scout Executive Surbaugh's presentation (which is linked in some thread around here somewhere), it is clear that that is what he is excited and enthusiastic about.  That's where the big numbers are, and if you can draw in the girls starting in Kindergarten (as the GSUSA does with Daisies), your numbers are going to look really good.  And that's what this is all about.  It is when Mr. Surbaugh moves on to the point where we have a girl in fifth grade or age 11 and she loves Cub Scouts and now it's time to move on to something else, his entire mood changes.  All of the oxygen has suddenly left the room.  What was a great opportunity has now turned into a big problem: What do we do with these young ladies after Cub Scouts?  We don't want to have nothing for them until Venturing, because most of them will probably just disappear.  I think National is really stumped about what to do at that point.  

 

As you and others have suggested, they COULD lower the Venturing age to 11, but that defeats the whole purpose of Venturing (which is as an "older youth" program), which is why I don't think it is going to happen.

 

As for "stealing Girl Scouts", if you think the GSUSA would not be upset about opening Venturing to 11-13 year old girls, I don't know what to tell you.  They'd be just as upset as they already are, about the BSA considering starting a Boy Scout-age-level program for girls.  I don't think the GSUSA cares what color uniforms the girls wear when they stop paying dues to the GSUSA and start paying them to the BSA.  But as I said before, the big numbers are in Cub Scouts:  Big numbers to gain in the hopes and dreams of BSA National, and big numbers to lose in the view of the GSUSA.

NJCUBSCOUTER your comment about lowering the Venturing age just makes my point.  So its OK to defeat the whole purpose of "BOY SCOUTING" but not OK to defeat the purpose of "Venturing".  Just create a new program for coeds and leave the Boy Scout Program alone.  This entire discussion is utterly silly.  It appears that anything that has Boy, Dad, Man in it needs to be abolished.  I just read today that a group is out there trying to get rid of "Fathers Day" and change it to "Special Persons Day".  Really, when does it stop.  Give boys the ability to be boys.  They need to be outside, camping, fishing, playing getting skinned knees and strawberries from sliding in baseball, poison ivy, falling in creeks and getting wet.  We are teaching out youth to be idle and wasting these great resources that god has provided us.  We now sit behind computers and wasting time arguing about stupid stuff that doesn't really matter in the end.  If BSA or whoever else wants to make silly decisions and waste time pushing away its "Customers" so be it.  They are wasting a great opportunity and at some point the entire program will fold due to politics.  This would be a shame.

@ChristianDad  I would like to say Thank you to you and your son for being passionate about Scouting.  I think you have raised an exception young man that is going to do great things in life.  Please do not let this deter him in his leadership training.  It breaks my heart to hear about your wife and his mother.  As a man that has lost his mother, I know what a blow some day this will be.  Spend every chance you can together and do what makes you happy including any Duty to God that will make mom happy.  My priorities in life are Family, God and Country.  It appears yours might be as well.  Everyone on this thread is well meaning and helpful, use it as a guide or just advice.  My advice would be to follow your own instincts, they appear to be spot on.  Good Luck and Thank you.

You're gonna think I am pulling a fast one, but really I tapped the plus one, nothing, tapped again, hit the minus.

 

We still should allow a little room for grey area. Is this a "sick day"? Or, is this a shift in priorities? Has this happened with other SPL's before? SMs can be a bit like ground bees, the nest gets stirred by the lead hiker, but the guy taking up the rear gets the stings.

Based on the father's information, it appears the only one having a problem is the SM.  My comment about calling out sick would be a last minute issue they would have to deal with.  Again, based on the father's information, the SPL will still be planning and participating in everything except going to the event.  It would be the same thing if he got sick or had an emergency and couldn't go.  Doesn't really matter why or if it is sick or whatever.  My point is if he had to miss the event for whatever emergency or reason, he still planned it and couldn't go.  My question is, would the SM still request his resignation?  Seems petty to me.  Again, my $0.02.

As an ASM, I applaud your SPL for being a good leader and giving plenty of notice, getting a suitable replacement for the event and still working t ensure the event is a success.  It looks like the only thing he will not be doing is attending the event.  What if a family emergency or illness came up.  Would the Scoutmaster ask for his resignation then.  Shouldn't the scouts be running the troop?  Maybe the SM should check with the PLC or PL's only if their is complaints.  Doesn't sound like there are any here.  The SM should step back and let these boys become leaders and see how they handle some adversity.  That is how good leaders are trained.

I am a little confused.  It is my understanding with all the PC stuff lately and the BSA Policy changes due to SJW Police, their hand was forced to start talking about allowing in girls.  I would think if BSA would lower the age for Venturing, more boys and girls would join and get the same type of program they are already looking for and we wouldn't be talking about letting girls in Boy Scouts or stealing Girl Scouts.

I can understand why the Girl Scouts of America might be upset but where were they when the BSA was being attacked from all sides?  BSA had to make some very difficult decisions based on pressure from outside organizations that had no interest in helping BSA after they got BSA to make policy changes.  They got their win, did a few fist pumps and moved on to the next crusade.  Never heard the GS come forward, defend or give support during the attacks.  Now BSA sees a potential to expand its program (I do not agree or disagree as I don't know the specifics) and the GS are upset.  Sometimes people should think about the ramifications of sitting on their hands and watching others get attacked because you don't want to be next.  Just my to cents.

I would be interested to see if the camp had any prerequisites for the Merit Badges.  A camp my son went to offered multiple badges that had prerequisites prior to camp.  The Scoutmaster was running the camp set up and sent the information to the scouts going and ensured they had completed those requirements before camp. 

This is indeed a tricky situation because you don't want to discourage the scout but at the same time want to teach him and have him learn the right way.  This might be the only way some of these scouts will learn to cook or get some of these life skills.

Good news and Bad News.  The guys scouts visited another troop and it just so happened that they were having a Flag Retirement Ceremony.  The Troop is small and the boys were welcomed and even participated in a skit.  Bad News, guy meets with Institutional Head and they have no idea what happened to application.  They don't appear to care about it.

Desertrat77. I feel bad for the guy. I just found out tonight that he is letting his scouts decide if they want to go to another troop. The boys went to the SM and CC and asked if they could meet with the council and discuss the unfounded accusations with them and let them know that the troop and scouts are going to be the ones hurt by this decision. Apparently no one has even met the COR or anyone on the council. They do not attend any of the Troop activities. The SM contacted the scouts to say their request was immediately denied. If that doesn't speak volumes, I don't know what does. I spoke to the UC for this unit and he told me there have been years of issues with the one lady and the troop. She apparently was a member of the troop with her son and did nothing but badmouth the SM, CC and former ASM. She works behind the scenes to discourage people from going to that troop. Not sure why nothing has been done to discourage this type of activity but that is above my pay grade. The UC met with the SM, CC and COR to find a resolution because the SM and CC were fighting the rejection decision. They apparently had emails proving this lady was spreading false information regarding this guy but the COR wouldn't budge. Looks like this troop will be back to 6 scouts soon. The good news is that some other troop will pick up a fine group scouts and leaders to build the future.

I agree about the making copies but I would hope a church organization would do the right thing and just let this guy move on. They obviously don't have much interest in promoting scouting and to continue messing with the guy is just bad business.

They aren't worried about losing their clearance. Financials play a part in the clearance process. If this application is misplaced or lost or gets in the wrong hands, someone could open up all kinds of credit or anything else for that matter and do some real damage.

The rejection part is apparently due to the CO having hard feelings against this guy. A few years ago the Cub Scout Pack he was the Cubmaster for left this CO. It is a Lutheran Church and the COR decided to quit scouting due to the new leadership policy. He did this in September and the CO could not find a replacement. As you know you are required to have a COR to recharter. The Pack had 50 scouts and the Pack Committee took a vote on what to do because by mid October, no one had stepped up to be the COR. This District requires their Charters to be turned in November 1. So this left them in a very difficult spot. The Pack Committee voted to move to a new CO. They didn't leave because of any hard feelings or anything like that, only because they couldn't get a COR.

There is also a very small Troop there as well. They only had about 6 scouts (another story in itself). This guy had made promise to the Scoutmaster and CC that he would do his best to build that troop back up. This past March the guy brought over eight bridging Webelos Scouts and two additional scouts that he got to rejoin Scouts. 10 total with four more coming at the end of summer. The SM and CC had already asked him to join as an ASM and he accepted which is why all these other families decided to join this troop that only had 6 scouts at the time. Little did he know there was a lady on the church council that had it in for him because of the Packs move a few years ago. The funny thing is, he had nothing to do with it as the CM doesn't have voting rights on the Pack Committee. The Council told the CC that starting with this guys application, they were going to review and approve all Adult Applications. They were not going to take the SM and CC recommendations. As all of you know is just fine and well within their rights. They decided to reject his application based on the Pack moving. Seems a little silly to me as this guy is well liked in the district and in scouting in general.

There was a big uproar at the District level asking why any troop would reject an adult leader that has been in scouting over 10 years with the credentials this guy has. It appears that the lady with the axe to grind sits on CS Roundtable. Five other Troops have contacted this guy and offered him an ASM position at their Troops. Last I talked to him, he was visiting other troops to find a good fit for his two scouts. He was torn because he made a promise to these two guys about building the troop back up and if he leaves, so will the 10 possibly 14 of the scouts that followed him there. They all get along well have quite a bit of fun. It is a shame that someone that doesn't even have a kid in scouting wants to ruin it for others.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on, but his major concern was that he just doesn't want his Personal info floating around especially since there seems to be some hard feelings on the other end. I don't blame him, I guess I wouldn't want mine out there either. I told him as a UC (not this troops UC), I would try to help. But as always, when I come here for advice, you guys and gals come through. Thanks for all you do!

They have already contacted the COR and CO three times. All started by having the SM and CC contact them. No big deal about being rejected but they are concerned about the PII floating around out there. They carry the highest level Security Clearance for their job and know how important this information is. I am trying to assist so it doesn't go legal.

Does anyone know what the policy is in BSA for a rejected application? A Charter Organization has rejected an Adult Leader Application for an Assistant Scoutmaster position. No paperwork went forward to District for processing so they have the application which contains the Applicants Personal Identifying Information (PII, SSN, Address, Phone, Drivers License Number, email, etc.). They also have the applicants medical forms that have his Insurance information to include medical info. The applicant has requested that the forms be returned to him as they contain this sensitive information. The Charter Organization to date has not responded or returned his forms. Does BSA have a policy on this? Seems like a valid request to me.

Just read an article that BSA paid $18,000.00 to the New Jersey cub scout that was kicked out of the Pack before the Transgender Policy was made official.  They also issued an official apology.

I am done with the BSA

Please don't assume to know what I get and don't get.  You're also contradicting yourself.  You say you've never heard scouts speak of their sexual activity, yet you say this scout was.  Which is it?  

 

I'm not sure where you do your scouting activity, but as many other have said, the topics of sex and inappropriate talk does happen; hormones, puberty, and all that. This is 100% correctable behavior, and not related to the scout being gay.  Whether he or anyone was talking about his male or female conquests, it's inappropriate.  Instead of trying to shelter your son from the real world, correct the behavior, explain why it's inappropriate and move on.  

As I have stated before Pale Horse, you don't get it.  Yes you are correct that this is 100% correctable behavior.  Since your last post, I have gone back and re-read my Boy Scout Leader book and no where in it does it state or tell me how I am to correct this type of behavior.  Because I should not be having to deal with this type of behavior in BOY SCOUTS!!!  Again to educate you, It is my responsibility to help mold these young men into great human beings and to keep them at the same time.  I should not have to explain to these boys what this other scout means when describing his sexual activity with other boys.  This is something I would talk to my own son about and it certainly should not happen at a Boy Scout meeting.