Ranman328
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Posts posted by Ranman328
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Our District did not turn away anyone. There were no restrictions on what grade girls could join. There are photos of one Troop in my area that has a girl in it and she went to summer camp with the Troop but yet according to the District Commissioner, we have no girls registered. I guess it wouldn't matter since there are not any girl handbooks out yet.
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Does anyone know what is going on with all the girls that joined in January and earned their AOL by June 1 as per the stated rules of starting a girl den? If the Boy Scouts don't start their program until 2019 what are they doing now?
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3 hours ago, mashmaster said:
Technically you are right. But I would assume a simple email to the SM saying that he would like a SM conference at Starbucks(or meeting) this week would just work. I hope. If not then I would push harder.
There is no "Technically" I copied and pasted that straight from the Guide to Advancement. From my reading, the Scout already personally asked the Scoutmaster for a Scoutmaster Conference. I am a little confused why he should also not have to send emails as well. If the Scout has completed the requirements, just do it! It should not take any more than 10 to 15 minutes. If the SM is that busy, then she should delegate. The Scout should not have to wait unless he has not finished some requirements.
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3 hours ago, FireStone said:
Is there any documented maximum allowable time from when a SM conference is requested to when one of given to the Scout? I'm not aware of anything but wondering if it's written somewhere. Like "a troop must make a conference date/time available to the Scout within no more than 60 days from request" or something like that?
According to the Guide to Advancement section 4.2.3.5 Unit Leader Conference states "Unit leaders do not have the authority to deny a Scout a conference that is necessary for him to meet the requirements for his rank. If a unit leader conference is denied, a Scout—if he believes he has fulfilled all the remaining requirements—may still request a board of review.
Looks like this Scout should just request his BOR and be done with it. Make the Unit Leader explain to the BOR why he is denying the Scout his SM Conference.
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Just now, Eagle1993 said:
Venturing crews can be coed. There were complaints about the coed Cub Scout rank books were release that boy only packs now have books with girls. Now National releases a separate books and more griping. How much money on a book... hardly anything vs the dues of the girls coming in.
No one said anything about coed did they? Do they have separate books? I haven't heard any complaints about coed Cub Scout Books. I think you should look up how much money was raised just last year raising membership fees. BSA made an additional $33 million dollars last year with the $9 increase in fees. If you don't think a significant chunk of that went to the girl program and new book design then you are not being honest. Currently there are only 10,000 girls signed up. In my district, we do not have a single girl registered.
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1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:
Really??!?!? Are you serious? If they changed the Boy Scout book to add some pictures of girls and changed some pronouns you would have went nuts claiming they “changed the program”. They are adding a girls book with picture of girls and adding “she” instead of “he”. They did this in a separate book so they don’t upset the existing boys and their leaders... and that is now an issue? WOW!
Perhaps we need to add trigger warnings to any BSA announcements going forward so existing leaders can go to their safe spaces prior to hearing such things like there is a scouts BSA book with pictures of girls or uniform pants that come out and are sized for girls. Oh, the humanity! 😀
There is a lot to complain about but having a separate book (as long as gender is the only delta) makes sense given how they are introducing the program as non coed.
Kind of a harsh response don't you think? My question would be, did BSA do the same thing for each Cub Scout Rank as well as the Venture Crew? If not, why? How much money was spent on the making of two books. Now all those complaints about BSA raising membership fees to pay for the girl program are valid, don't you think? I think people are getting upset that everything BSA said would not happen is now happening. Sad times we are in.
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12 minutes ago, FireStone said:
Not to their parents necessarily. From what my wife has told me, kids are far more likely to openly discuss their sexual orientation or gender identity among friends and even teachers than they are parents.
There's a lot of baggage that goes with coming out to their parents. That's a big life-changing event. Come out to a friend or teacher and if it doesn't go well, that's a relationship that you don't have to live with forever. Come out to your parents and not get the reaction you hoped for, and that's entirely different.
I don't know how the Scouting Program works in your neck of the woods but in my Troop, if a Scout told other Scouts or his Patrol he no longer identified as a boy or girl, the parents would be aware as one of those Scouts would have discussed it or said something. So yes, the Scout would have "outed" himself. I'm also not sure the NJ School System should be used as comparison to how we handle things in Scouting. Most School Systems no longer allow any talk of God and that is a huge part of Scouting.
I also find it odd that we haven't mentioned discussing with the Scout about the Scout Law that he should be reciting at every meeting. Does the Scout Law not state "Honesty"? Shouldn't we be encouraging the Scout to be Honest with his Parents. By not telling or discussing this with the parents wouldn't I be violating part of the Scout Law that I recite at every meeting? What your saying is we should pick and choose how, when and which parts of the Scout Oath and Law we follow based on the circumstance? Just my $.02
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3 hours ago, FireStone said:
What if the kid hasn't come out to their parents with their gender identity? Their sexual orientation? Is it our place to potentially "out" a kid to their parents?
I don't think we should have any role in that dynamic between a youth and their parents. That's a monumental moment for people, revealing something like that to their parents. Many kids come out to friends, teachers, other adults before their parents because it's such a stressful and intimidating thing to do. Who are we to reveal that info to parents, even if it is inadvertent?
And save it with the "normal" and "rational" comments. No one here isn't "normal" for having a differing opinion. Certainly not when it comes to areas of discussion that neither of us are experts/professionals in.
If the Scout has already told several other Scouts or his Patrol, as has happened in this case, wouldn't he have already "outed" himself? What happens when one of these Scouts says something to the parents at the next meeting or COH or says "Hi" to him in his new requested name in front of his parents? What happens when the parents if they don't know go the Leaders and ask if they knew and if so, why didn't they come to them saving them the embarrassment of finding out from someone else in public. Very slippery slope on this one. As a SM, I would use it as a Scoutmaster Conference moment to get to the bottom of his feelings to find out why and maybe have a group meeting with the parents. It really opens up a whole can of worms not telling especially if it could lead to bullying or worse.
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2 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:
If a scout does not want their parents to know of this situation then a leader should pull in a professional scouter. This could be evidence of a scout who is in an abusive relationship at home (or many other reasons) and I wouldn’t expect any volunteer to have to navigate the situation. Ignoring a scout who tells you not to tell their parents and simply going over their head is irresponsible and possibly dangerous.
I disagree. This Scout is not 18 years old and as someone here already said "We are not psychologists" so yes the Scout's guardians in this case, his parents should be informed. This might be a way of this Scout reaching out for help. I would have a discussion with the Scout and obtain as much information as possible before talking to the parents in an attempt to eliminate home abuse. I for one am not willing to take on the responsibility of not telling the Scout's legal guardian and then something happens and the parents come back at me for knowing and not saying something. I am not sure BSA would defend me either.
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I have never heard of this rule either. I will conduct a SM Conference anytime as long as the Scout has his Class A and Handbook. I have done them on campouts, Troop Meetings, Hikes. I have even in a pinch called the Committee together to come to my house to complete the SM Conference and BOR on the same night. In this day and age, if a Scout takes the time to complete the requirements, then by god, I will do whatever needs to be done to get the SM Conference done. The fastest way to lose a scout is to drag your feet getting them ranked up. Seems like an SM needs a reminder of the G2A and you can't change or add requirements. Get that Scout Ranked Up!!!
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I do believe this is a case of not wanting the Troop there any longer. I spoke to a friend that was a member of the church and they said there are lots of problems with the church now from the top down. We shouldn't have a problem finding a home. All the Schools in the area are free of charge so that is an option. We have had a relationship with the church for many years and provided a ton of Service Hours to them as well. It is sad for it to end this way.
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On 8/9/2018 at 11:50 PM, oldbuzzard said:
Our troop has a "patrol" of girls at summer camp for the past 2 weeks. We run our own camp with usually one other troop. We've regularly had 1 or 2 associated Venture crews that are majority female doing all camp activities . Our girl patrol sent in registrations as Scouts which were rejected. We refused to take the apps back. I *think* council converted them to Venture apps and we refused to take the cards. Anyway, all the females are over 14 but we invited younger girls and would have allowed them if they wanted to attend. This is the female scouts' first troop activity, some of them did a entirely mom/daughter BWCA trip this summer at the same time the troop was sending 3 crews to the BWCA. The biggest issue has been how we are going to recognize them at the closing campfire since we can't give them merit badges. I'll see what they've come up with tomorrow night.
So yes. We have a committee. We have female scouters. Half the girls at camp will age out before girls are "allowed" in February, so we also have a younger group of female ASMs or ad hoc volunteers from our venture crew, which has been defunct but is spinning back up for an existing group of senior scouts who will age out during their senior year and want to do some more high adventure. Our CO has encouraged us to push the boundaries as much as possible. We are planning to run linked troops which will look like a single troop with single sex patrols. We're just hoping to get enough new girls to have viable patrols.
ETA: Our Cub Scout troop is planning to run coed dens.. Council knows this. We are a designated referral pack for girls who can't form a viable den in other packs. When we told council they gritted their teeth and said they'd *strongly* prefer we not do that. We told them we were doing it anyway and they ignored it.
If I am not mistaken, the new rollout of girls in Troops does not start until 2019. This is not a good example to be setting for these girls wanting to become part of this program. It appears that from the top down in your Troop, you are telling these girls that if you don't like the rules or policies they don't have to follow them. Just make up your own. That is a very dangerous road to go down. What are you going to do when the first girl gets injured or files a complaint? They are not a registered Scouter. I am not sure the Charter Organization would like to hear that they are being put out there for potential lawsuits. Scary times these are.
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Our Troop is Chartered by a Moose Lodge. They don't have enough meeting space for us to meet so we have been meeting at the Church 50 yards next door for the last 10 years or so. We provide as much manual labor as they might need as well as grounds clean ups two times a year. We meet there once a week from September to May. I received a call tonight from the Financial Chairman of the Church wanting to discuss our Troop meeting there and entering into a Lease Agreement with the Church starting September 1. They would only charge us $400.00 a month. Yes I said $400.00 per month. This equates to over $100 per meeting. I thought I was going to choke. Am I out of line to feel this way? I told him that there is no way our Troop could pay $400 per month to meet in their gym every month and that the long standing agreement was that we would provide grounds maintenance and other service to meet there. I can go to any school in the county and meet there for free, I just won't have the freedom of having keys to get in early if I want. Has anyone else had an issue like this?
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Our Charter Organization will not be starting any Girl Troops. I think with the current rules in place about requiring a female to be at all events and outings is going to be hard. Unfortunately, I don't think this was well thought out and not properly planned. I think the powers that be forgot the Scout Motto "BE PREPARED". They certainly are not in this case.
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4 hours ago, bearess said:
Sigh. So son went to camp last week. He had a great time, loved it. But, the first day, I guess there was confusion about who was supposed to be carrying the flag. Son was carrying it, he went to hand it to someone else and dropped it. Oops. Son was embarrassed, all the boys acted quickly to pick it up, everyone clearly understood it was a mistake. Well, ASM/former Cubmaster was there and apparently screamed at my son in front of everyone until he cried. Another ASM and the SM were there, they took son aside, calmed him down. The other ASM called me about it once they got home. Apparently they had a meeting last night (COR, SM, both ASMs) to speak to ASM about how he talks to the boys (yelling/humiliating). I hope this will resolve it, but I’m doubtful it will. Sigh. I don’t know what to do from here.
I will have to say you have more restraint than I would have had and I commend you on that. I am not sure this Adult is a good fit for Boy Scouts. He should not be engaging with the scouts in this manner. He should be going to the Patrol Leaders and have them forward information to the Patrols. I think a discussion needs to be had about his son bunking with him on campouts. How is this scout going to rank up. So far as a Scoutmaster, I would not sigh off on any campout he has been on sleeping with dad. As I tell the boys in my Troop, we all make mistakes. If you don't make mistakes you aren't working or learning. A great teachable moment about the flag and to reassure the scout that dropped the flag he did nothing wrong was missed. Now there is a scout out there that will be looking over his shoulder and be worried about making a mistake so he won't get yelled at. This puts this Scout in a difficult position and hurts his ability to learn to be a leader of his Patrol. I would recommend removing this adult from campouts until he can be properly trained. Just my two cents.
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On 6/18/2018 at 9:00 PM, ParkMan said:
It's covered in the interview. He makes it pretty clear it is up to the CO.
I understand it is covered in the interview but if you are to treat them as what they put on their application then what would the CO use to disqualify the applicant? Seems to me this would lead to some sort of discrimination complaint.
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On 6/14/2018 at 9:13 PM, The Latin Scot said:
I must confess, I find the comparing the job of a Webelos leader to a sales job equally unsettling. As a Webelos leader, I have NEVER looked at my boys in that light, nor my duties in that way.
I am not a salesman. I am a teacher, a mentor, and a guardian to these boys. My job is to help them become better people, and I need to do it with my example, my encouragement, and my training. And I have to love them enough to accept the fact that not everything we do may be fun, but it all matters - and I have to let them know that. I have to be 100% transparent with them; my job is to prepare them for Scouting by teaching them how to develop essential skills and supplying them with the important knowledge they will need to succeed. Getting a boy to join a Troop right after Cub Scouts is no issue. But getting them to STAY, that's where many founder. Boys don't remain with anything they aren't succeeding in, and if a Webelos leader hasn't prepared his boys sufficiently, their first few weeks will not be worth their time.
HOWEVER, if they have been well prepared, trained for what's coming, so that they know how to start earning merit badges, are prepared to recite the oath, law and outdoor code - if they know how patrols function, and are ready to follow their youth leaders because they were taught how by adult Cub leaders - those first few weeks will be a resounding success, and the boy will stay, not because he has been convinced to stay in Scouting, but because he has been PREPARED for it. And THAT is what gets boys excited! When they realize that they will soon be part of a new patrol, and that they will go in with a HUGE head start, knowing the program, the duties, the knots, the badges, the requirements - the more they know, the more excited they are to get started!
A Webelos leader gives boys that first taste of what Scouting entails by teaching what Scouting is, showing them how it works (first by observation then by practice), and by simply talking with them about what is coming. My boys have heard all about my Scouting experiences - what I wish I had done better, what my patrols did well, what they didn't do well - everything. My Den Chief is always talking to them about how Boy Scouts is different than what they are currently doing, and what he is doing with his patrol and troop every month. And every half year, we switch from my leadership to that of the boys for a month as they practice the patrol method.
I also prepare the parents, not by selling them on Boy Scouting, but by helping prepare them with what to expect. I invite and accompany them to their first committee meetings with the troop. I introduce them to the boys' future leaders and fellow Scouts. I guess I simply treat every family as though all of my boys will of course go straight from my den to a new patrol, and that their parents will be prepared to get involved. And of course, I expect them to walk into their first meeting ready to earn their Scout rank right then and there. If they can't do that, what have I been doing with my time?
The first job of a Webelos leader is to prepare his boys for Scouting by inspiring them to want to learn more, do more, and be more. It's not about sales; it's about learning.
@The Latin Scot, I could not have said it better. I do wish the new program made a requirement to better prepare the boys for Boy Scouting. I wonder if some leaders are getting burned out especially if they have been in the program from the Tigers on and they just want to be done. I have been asking around about the Pack with the Scout I am asking about and have found out that this might be the case. They just want to be done which is sad because in my opinion the last two years of Cub Scouts are the most important when it comes to preparing the boys for Boys Scouts.
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2 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:
This is the same information we were provided and clearly states that we are to accept scouts based on what they put on their application. Unless they say otherwise, my CO can not deny their application. It concerns me that members here are posting information or giving advice contrary to the information National has sent out.
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1 hour ago, NJCubScouter said:
I know I'm repeating myself, but I think it is relevant to a number of the posts that have appeared since I last said this:
No unit is required to accept a transgender Scout.
"Thank you for your interest in our troop, but it is the BSA's policy that your child be placed in a troop that is most able to handle circumstances such as this, so we are referring you to the council office for placement in another troop."
Simple. And council will back you up, because you're following the rules. Where is little Charlie-was-Suzie going to sleep on the camping trip? Wherever the other troop puts him. Not your problem. How great is that?
When did the National Policy change? All information we have received is that ALL units must take whatever is listed on the application at face value. If it is a girl that says they are a boy, then you treat them as a boy and vice versa. I have not received any information to contradict this nor has our DE? Please provide me with the information you have so I can take that to our District Key 3. Thanks
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On 6/14/2018 at 10:34 PM, Saltface said:
Lately, if I were asked to help start another boy unit, I'm not sure if I would do it.
On the other hand, some of us have been armchairing the idea of a completely rogue unit using the 1940s handbook and merit badge requirements. I'd do that.
I'm in for the 1940's unit.
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On 6/12/2018 at 8:50 AM, WisconsinMomma said:
I have to say, it sounds as if you want to go volunteer and help a Pack with their Webelos program.
If you're not interested / able to go volunteer or partner with the Pack, then I suggest -- stop looking over your shoulder. Instead, focus your energy on making your Troop program the best it can possibly be.
I have a hard time hearing a troop complain about new scouts, when -- new scouts are new scouts. The troop has them for as many as 7 years -- ages 11 to 18 to help the boys learn and grow from young tweens to adult men.
The best thing I did as a Webelos/Arrow of Light den leader, was to encourage and excite the boys about Boy Scouting. I viewed my job as a sales job, and I told those boys how awesome Boy Scouting is. (Note that, I had no Boy Scouting experience, and I was going totally on faith that the Troops will deliver.) I was extremely pleased when all six boys in my den chose to cross over into local Troops. Were they great outdoorsmen -- no! But they had an interest in continuing their Scouting journey and I think that was job #1. And they all earned Arrow of Light, which is a big accomplishment for them and their families.
Cub Scout packs are not perfect, just as troops are not perfect --- they're not! We're all run by humans who are just trying to do the best they can, sometimes they have more success than others. I appreciate the feedback about preparing boys for Boy Scouting and will take it back to our Pack for the coming year. My youngest is a new Webelos and I can share with his den leader and help the Webelos and AOL think about Boy Scouting and the patrol method sooner.
We have many troops in our area, and the boys can choose to go to any of them. I expect that all troops in our area will be cordial with our Pack. Honestly if some troop came to us with complaints about our program, it would be strange. All the troops we've worked with are delighted to welcome any new boys that are coming out of our Pack, and it's not because of their training, it's because they are delighted to help young men continue their Scouting journey.
Also note that not all Cub Scouts and their families choose to move into Boy Scouting. For a few, Cub Scouts is it. It is a sales job to encourage boys to continue.
It is possible that the Pack you are working with has a light program, but, what are you going to do about it? I think it's easier to work on that in your Troop and especially work on your new scout retention --- our Troop loses a lot of scouts in the first year or two. I don't know if it's preventable, but it is important to engage the young guys and bring them in and form a strong connection in their first year.
Good luck with it!
You know, I started this thread asking a simple question because I was concerned that an AoL Scout might cross over early and think he earned the AoL when he did not. No, I don't have any additional time to give. I already work more hours in Scouting per week than I do my full time paid job. I have run very successful Cub Scout Programs and now run a very successful Boy Scout Troop. I am also a Merit Badge Counselor for Multiple Troops for 27 different Merit Badges and serve as a Unit Commissioner for 6 Cub Scout Packs. I would like to see leaders become better trained instead of saying "I didn't know" Your statements are a common response I get from Packs. Always remember "Scouts deserve a TRAINED LEADER" Take the time to get trained. If a Scout crosses over to my Troop after earning the AoL, YES, I expect that a leader like you would have taught him the BASICS. If you as the leader signed off on his requirements, then you as the leader are saying you are acknowledging he has proved to you he has accomplished them. All the things you are saying the Boy Scouts should teach like the Patrol Method, YOU should have already started teaching in first year Webelos. I have never heard any Den Leader refer to their job as a sales job. That is very disturbing. My Troop has not had any first year losses. I suspect if your Troop is losing a lot of scouts as you say, it comes down to the scouts not being prepared and having culture shock when they are being led by all boys and go on their campouts with mom and dad. Again, It all comes down to preparing the boys in the Webelos Program and not selling something to them. My two cents.
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15 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:
Yes, let’s please keep it to neckerchiefs. Not every thread needs to be turned into an ideological discussion.
Message received! I thought this was a discussion forum to discuss things. Recommend you provide your guidance on every thread as they all seem to veer off course. I will keep my two cents to myself in the future.
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3 hours ago, FireStone said:
Actually there have been hints that the BSA is going back to a more "traditional" necker style and wear. I'm not sure anyone has ever attacked neckerchiefs (we all have preferences, but I don't remember hearing any calls for national change in policy regarding neckerchiefs), and as mentioned, it seems that tradition is actually coming back around on this topic.
Never said anyone attacked neckerchiefs. What I said is that lately, "ANYTHING DEALING WITH TRADITION" is attacked. Not just in Scouting but ANYTHING dealing with TRADITION. Seems like we have people that go around and see what kind of trouble they can cause and protest long standing traditions.
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On 6/8/2018 at 6:37 PM, SSScout said:
Why do American Scouts/Scouters have so much trouble accepting the tradition, the history inherent in that scrap of cloth ?
I think you answered your own question "accepting the tradition". Lately, anything dealing with tradition is attacked and must be changed. As the Committee Chairman, I asked that if the Adult Leaders were going to wear the uniform, they try to wear it properly. I had a few female leaders coming to events wearing leggings and the Leader Uniform untucked. One was wearing Disney Leggings with white socks pulled up over top of them. I am not saying everyone needs to have a complete uniform but at least give the scouts a good example.
I wish BSA would invest in a better cloth and go back to the larger neckerchief. I always keep a bandanna in my pocket. Great utility item.
SM Conference for higher ranks ONLY on campouts?
in Open Discussion - Program
Posted
luckily I only have 25 Scouts in my Troop but I hear you, there are nights when a bunch want something and they all wait until the last minute to ask. I do hope there is a reason and not a SM imposed policy on it.