Ranman328

How exactly was he "vocal about his lifestyle"? A scout, any scout, who brags about how many "chicks he smashed" last week isn't Morally Straight either.  This isn't a gay/straight issue, it's a decorum issue.

 

The scout needed to be realize, and it's Leader's responsibility to educate, that there are times and places for everything.  Scouting is about scouting.

Pale Horse.  You just don't get it.  For your information this scout was attempting to discuss in detail HIS  "dudes he smashed" as you so colorfully have put it.  I am not sure where you participate in scouting at but I have never heard or witnessed any scouts speaking or heard any other scouts saying they have heard or discussed their activity.  So no you are wrong when you say it isn't a gay or straight issue.  In this case, it was a gay issue.  This is my son we are talking about and when my son says he is not comfortable around this type of behavior, I will remove my son from that situation.  It has nothing to do with not being accepting or tolerant.  This is in the best interest of my son and family.  Thank you!

In my honest opinion, we as a society have set our children up for failure.  We have allowed the "everyone gets a trophy"  and there are no "winner and losers" and the all too familiar "don't keep score so no ones feelings get hurt".  We did not fight back and tell them yes there are winners and losers and not everyone gets a trophy and yes at the end of the day score is being kept.  We are not preparing our youth for the real world.  Case in point, the 2016 Presidential Election.  All the lefties were told Hillary was going to win and life was going to be great.  Election night comes around and guess what, the man that had no chance became the President of the United States.  This group of everyone gets a trophy was not prepared how to deal with defeat.  What do they do?  Lash out, destroy property, call names, point fingers and everything else that is going on out there.  People have lost their minds because they do not know how to handle adversity.

There are groups out there that just want to cause trouble where ever they can.  Let me ask you all this question.  Can anyone provide me with some exact figures of how the BSA policy on Gay Scouts and Gay Leaders have made a positive impact on the organization.  Did BSA gain or lose members?  What have these groups that protested the BSA to get these changes done to assist with helping out since then.  I will tell you.  They have done NOTHING.  The BSA caved, made the policy changes and these people "high fived" each other threw down their signs and moved on to the next "Social Injustice".  Here we are again with the protesters and chanters wanting change.  They are getting change and where is their representative wanting to meet with BSA Leadership to help with the transition of this new policy that they have so vigorously demanded.  They are no where to be found.  They have left and moved on to the next opportunity.  Here we all are, some of us lifetime scouters and outdoor folks that just want to help a generation of BOYS be BOYS and get out from in front of the TV and video games and go camping, hiking and experience life without technology.  We are left to pick up the pieces and try to rework a program AGAIN that a bunch of "Scouters" that have not dealt with any boys in years have ruined. 

My oldest son wanted to leave scouts due to a gay scout that was very vocal about his lifestyle.  I would ask, how does this fit into "Morally Straight".  It doesn't and no one will question it for fear of retribution.  I know that five scouts have left this troop due to this scout.  Lets see, five scouts leave to due to the actions of a gay scout.  Those figures don't seem to add up in favor of the new policies. 

What do you do about someone that is Agnostic?  We had an Assistant Cubmaster that was openly vocal about being Agnostic.

I was not sure if you were indicating that I was calling TG a medical issue or if that was a general statement.  My intent with the statement was simply that I wanted to know about any kind of issue about any of the youth I serve if that issue has the potential to effect how I do my program or safety issues related to it.

 

I was an EMT, I develop medical devices for a career.  There are still inherent medical needs that a biological female may (TG male or not) need to be treated differently.  It is not about not treating them as a male as much as it is about providing appropriate medical care.  Thus I want (and feel like I need) to know if one of my youth are TG.  For any other aspect of the program, I am perfectly willing to treat them how they want to be treated.  If the parent's aren't good with that (after all I really do have what I think are the best interest of the child at heart) then I am not the right leader for their child and one of the two of us will not be moving on to the next round.

 

Even the statements from National in regards to finding a unit that best serves the child's needs identifies that not all units will be able to handle this - the reasons for that are are more than I could list with religious affiliations being only one; poor or insufficient leadership and/or not reasonable skilled in serving youth (we'll question later if that person should be a leader at all), etc.  We cannot find a unit that serves their needs if we don't know what those needs are.

 

Personally, as long as the parents were working with me, I think I could handle it as a leader, and I expect the units I am most closely associate with (none are church sponsored) would be welcoming (youth, adult leaders, and parents).

 

In cub scouts, we may not figure it out if we aren't told; but by Boy Scouts we'll probably know - told or not.

 

Unfortunately, I also think you are probably (very) low on the loss/replace ratio.

It wasn't necessarily your exact comment but a collection of comments discussing the medical and psychological aspect of the transgender scouts that it was neither.  Me personally, I think this is a bad idea.  There too many things that can go wrong.  As most of us are aware, the BSA is full of lawyers that will find a way not to represent us Volunteers.  If anyone doesn't think there are going to be people to "test" this new policy specifically to file a lawsuit, they are sadly mistaken.  Look how fast they were to file a law suit over being asked to leave because of the old policy.  I was a paramedic for many years and am all too aware of medical issues.  My point is that WE as LEADERS according to the NEW policy will not know if that scout is a biological female or biological male ONLY what they put on the application which will be a boy.  We are to treat them as a male.  I will guarantee you the first time someone is treated anything other than a "boy", here come the lawyers.  Plain and simple.

Scouting is down over 4000 scouts in my District alone.

As others have said, while we may not use and have a Birth certificate, we should have their medical forms.

 

I completely disagree with "you aren't allowed to ask". That's not the way we do things.

If a scout has an allergy - we need to know so we can take the appropriate precautions.  If a scout has medical issues, behavior issues, psychological issues - we need to know so that we can (1) Provide for the needs of the Scout, and (2) Take appropriate precautions or provide adequate supervision.

 

Even now, we are a volunteer organization (at the unit level), and If, as a volunteer, I could not adequately handle or address the needs of a scout, I would work with the parents to either (1) devise a mutually agreeable plan, (2) recommend another unit that may be better suited to meet those needs, or (3) respectfully 'retire' (at least from that unit), as I am unwilling to accept liability for attempting to manage something I do not feed comfortable and qualified to handle.  While I would like to think the last option would be unfortunate for everyone involved and some not directly involved, if I had intransigent parents to work with ... life is too short.

 

We still need to know about a TG youth, because they will have some issues that we will need to help manage for them to participate.  I don't want to treat them differently, but I do want to know how best to accommodate their needs, as I would with any other scout with needs.

Are we now calling transgender a "Medical Issues"?  I read in earlier posts it is not a medical or psychological issue.  This is not an "allergy" or "physical disability".  This is a scout with the biological body of a female claiming on a membership form to be a male.  Again, you will never know and according to our District and Council per National, you are not allowed to ask.  I asked the same question, what do you do when you find out by looking over the medical form"  According to the new policy, that scout is to be treated based solely on what they put on that BSA application.  I agree, we as volunteer leaders need to know but according to the new policy, you will not and can not ask.  I also agree, I am not willing to put myself or family at risk over something I am not qualified to handle.  It appears this was poorly thought out and no one in "charge" thought about all the issues that could come about.  I think 10x the number of leaders and scouts will leave the program than what is brought in with this new policy.

First off, the BSA policy is for membership, not YPT or other purposes.  As stated above, unless I hear differently, I'm defering to state law definitions of gender for YPT.  Second, I don't think that someone being transgender is required to be a secret.  Even in the articles about the Scout from New Jersey, it was made clear that everyone was aware that he was transgender.  Third, I don't think there is a basis for a lawsuit for treating transgendered youth differently if their birth certificate identifies them differently than their gender identity.  Again, state law controls.  

 

In my limited dealings with parents of transgendered youth, they are only looking for reasonable accommodations.  They recognize that their child is different -- they aren't in a state of denial.  They realize that their child's gender identity makes their child's life so much more difficult and sets their child up for a host of potential problems.  But they are like any other parent, they love their child and they want to protect them from life's cruelties as best they can.  If they know that you understand their situation and are living the Scout Law in respect to their child ("Trustworthy"  "Friendly" "Courteous" and especially "Kind") they will understand your situation and work with you to make sure that there is a Middle Way (reflecting the Buddhist concept of a path that takes neither extreme but focuses and values our shared humanity).  

 

In our Crew, the transgender members tent with other scouts that have the same gender identified on their birth certificate as opposed to the scouts having the same gender identity (with the scouts and their parents fully aware and comfortable with this situation).  This isn't because of some adult rule, it is what the Scouts figured out on their own.

Good luck with that.  Again, you have completely missed the point.  Go back and read the new policy.  You keep talking about a "Birth Certificate".  In all my years of scouting, I have never seen or had a birth certificate given to me.  If mom and dad put on that application that Jane is Johnny and never say a word to you, how will you ever know until something happens.  Oh and by the way, you are not allowed to ask.

@@Stosh, if the Boy Scout's identified gender of male is different than what is listed on their birth certificate, I think it is required to have a female adult along on the trip.  If the gender listed is the same based on state law, no female adult is required.  First problem solved.

 

Latrines - Most latrines have doors.  The one's that don't the scouts always impose their own "one person at a time rule" and the buddy stands outside.   For public bathrooms, state law applies.  Second problem solved.

 

Showering - Typically, scouts don't shower on weekend trips.  At out summer camp, any scout under 14 might shower once and the showers are individual.  You only have issues when you have State Park like facilities where the showers are in the bathroom.  Then state law applies, whatever that may be.  Three down.

 

Tenting - Again, birth certiicate controls and then individual preferences (scouts have to be comfortable with who they tent with).  Honestly, on most weekend campouts, the Boy Scouts don't change their clothes at all during the weekend.  If they do change, they take turns being alone inside the tent or change in their sleeping bag.  Most of my Scouts want to tent by themselves anyway.  Four.

 

Our Cub Scout pack has one boy with Downs Syndrome and one confined to a motorized wheelchair.  We are looking forward to welcoming them into the Troop and willing to make any accomodations necessary.  We currently have Scouts on the autism spectrum that we make accomodations for on campouts and at summer camp.  We have kids who do sports that come late or leave early on campouts.  I don't think this would be any different - we make accomodations based on the needs of individual scouts.  My experience is that transgender youth and their parents understand that this is a difficult situation and are easy to work with when they see people treating their children as human beings and not an "issue" or "agenda."  

 

I can and do understand objections to the decision based on someone's religious, moral, political and scientific views, but I think that arguing the practicalities of implemeting the decision are red herrings.  

I think you have missed the point here.  The new BSA policy says their identity is based on what they say on their application NOT Birth Certificate.  You will never see the Birth Certificate.  When little Johnny walks through the door he/she is Johnny not Jane.  When you are assigning tents, you are not suppose to know Johnny is Jane.  If you do make tenting decisions based on Johnny being Jane, you will face a lawsuit tor treating Johnny/Jane different.  This is the problem many of us are having with this as we are not suppose to know that Johnny is really Jane. 

All of the virtues mentioned in your quote (do things for themselves and other, scoutcraft, patriotism, courage, self-reliance, etc), they aren't the exclusive domain of boys. Just bolding the word boys doesn't make them things that can only be taught to boys in an all-male setting. If you changed the word to "girls", the rest of it would read just as logically and realistically as it does for boys. 

 

Yes the BSA has been a boys' organization. But the core of the program has never been dependent on gender. If someone were to hypothetically sneak through the program as a boy when in reality they were female, all of the gains they made in going through it would still benefit them the same as if they were male. The same character-building, self-reliance, bravery, all of it. 

 

I stand by my previous statement. BSA is about character-building. Always has been, always will be regardless of gender and membership policies.

[/quote

The fact that the Scout "lied" and "misled" everyone tells me that they did not live by the Boy Scout Oath and Boy Scout Law and therefore could not have achieved any rank because they must live by the oath and law. Right?

_{BSA Policy requires ALL Scouters and people attending Scouting events to have a BSA Medical form on file.  As a Den Leader and Cubmaster I required our scouts and parents to have a Medical form on file.  I would also go over each form to find out if we had anyone with an allergy or medical condition.  What happens when us Leaders find out by way of the form that the registered "Boy" is actually a biological female.  At that point, how would I be able to put that scout in a tent with male scout?  This poses major problems.  What bathroom and shower arrangements are there?}

As a longtime leader, I am very disappointing in this decision.  BSA already has coed programs.  These programs have age restrictions though. Why not ease the age restrictions on those programs and let these individuals still get an outdoor experience without changing the Boy and Cub Scout programs.  This really has nothing to do with transgender, it is a small group of people that want t cause trouble and force a group to make a change just to make a change.  I would like to see the numbers of how membership has gone down due to the last two membership policy changes.  I know in my district alone, we were down over 2500 scouts from last year and over 4000 since the first change.  Very sad

After nine and a half years, my wife and I decided to transfer to another Pack.  I had served as the Committee Chairman, Cubmaster and Den Leader.  I resigned at the end of last year as the Cubmaster to concentrate on getting the Webelos II Den ready for Boy Scouts.  There were also some problems with the new Charter Organization and some new committee members.  Anyway, the new year started with lots of drama.  The new wolf den of 12 boys decided that they didn't like the new leadership and transferred to a new pack.  I asked the Committee if they got payment from those families for their neckerchiefs, slides and handbooks.  I was told by the Treasurer that since I didn't attend the committee meeting (I was on vacation in August) that my input was not needed or wanted and that with all the extra money we had left over from last year (money left over because her husband did not have the rain gutter regatta that we charged all the scouts for) they decided to let them walk without paying and this would not affect on this years dues and activity fees.  At our first Pack Meeting, the parents were taken into a separate room for the "Parent Discussion" where the Treasurer stands up and tells everyone that due to the loss of a bunch of scouts, our dues would be going up by almost $100 per scout.  I have a Webelos II den of 12 boys.  Naturally, most of the parents in my den came up to me and asked what this was all about as we have less that five months left and that cost was too much.  Come to find out, we were being asked to pay $125 for den supplies for a Wolf den that did not exist and $125 for a tiger den of two boys.  $125 for a Bear Den of 4 boys and yes my den gets $125 for 12 boys.  After many discussions with the committee and parents, I received a nasty email from the treasurer telling me that my wife and I were not needed and if we didn't like it we should move to a different Pack.  This is exactly what we did.  She was under the impression that I was making all the questions and concerns up regarding parents being upset about the cost increase.  Then, nine other families in my den decided to transfer as well.  At no time did I ask any families to leave with me.  I was contacted by nine families saying they did not want to stay in a Pack that allowed leaders to act like that.  They transferred as well.  This was a blessing in disguise as the new pack only had two Webelos II and no Den Leader as he was transferred by the military.  I received one last nasty email from the Pack Secretary telling me what a horrible person I was forcing all these families to make a choice to go with me and I would regret it all my living days.  I did not respond and things died down for a month and a half.  So this morning, I receive a text from the Pack Secretary and the only thing it has is a middle finger emoji.  Funny thing about all this is that she is the wife of the Pack COR.  I have had about enough of this childish behavior.  Should I file a formal complaint with District regarding her behavior or just let it go.  I don't want to have to continue to field these texts and emails. 

OK, I'm confused.  I thought this was a Cub Scout Pack?  Why is a Scoutmaster running it.  I thought we were talking about a Tiger Den?  I do realize that in a Tiger Den that all the parents are suppose to participate in planning and running a meeting but in our Pack, until each parent completed the Youth Protection, they did not participate as any type of leader.

I would recommend meeting weekly and keep the meetings shorter as the younger scouts are harder to keep focused.  I would also recommend doing some weekend events to make it fun to have the boys do some outings.  Most local fire and police departments are more than willing to conduct tours of the facility.  Several grocery stores will do the same.  Having more meetings gives the boys something to look forward to and also makes it possible for families to spend time together.

amg4814

First off, welcome to this forum.  From someone that has been through something similar to this, my recommendation is to get out now.  There are too many other Packs out there.  I was with the same Pack for nine years serving as a Den Leader, Committee Chairman and Cubmaster.  I wanted to step down as the Cubmaster to devote my time to the 12 boys I had been working with since they were Tigers and get them ready for Boy Scouts.  I had had my problems with other leaders not wanting to do the minimum required for the boys and knew it was time for a change.  Once I made the change to Den Leader, several people turned on my wife and I after we told them we would no longer be available to run all the Pack events.  We had a difficult decision to make.  Leave a Pack we had been with for nine years with only 6 months left in my youngest sons Arrow of Light year and 11 other boys I had worked with for four and a half years or put up with silly childish behavior that would sour my scouting experience with my son.  We chose to move and it was the best decision we could have ever made.  It just so happens that nine of the other families moved as well (on their own without any advice from me).  Our new Pack welcomed us with open arms.  You are a volunteer that should be proud to serve in scouting and also have fun spending time with your family while teaching other boys and their families valuable skills that they will use their entire life.  Just remember, when it is no longer fun, it is time to move on.  These are some of the best years you will spend with your Scout and family.  Don't waste time dealing with situations you can't fix or control.  Sadly, some people just don't play well with others.  Hope this helps.

Very good points. That's why I love coming here. Taking eight of the 12 to a Boy Scout Campout this weekend. Guess what, they are going over the Camper Adventure. How great is that. Not to toot my own horn but these boys have been with me since their Tiger and Wolf years and none have left. I must be doing something right. I do expect a great deal from them as I go to the award ceremonies a the school and all but one are in the gifted program and on the honor roll. Sometimes they get lazy and do the minimum. I do try to catch them time to time and they get me instead. Too bad we can't take the silly parent factor out of it.

I completely agree and thank you for reinforcing my belief in it is better to learn than earn. So many leaders want to walk away with bling and I want to walk away knowing these boys might remember something and use it in life. Unfortunately it appears I have angered the ACM and his Treasurer wife(their son is I'm my Den) by saying the boys did not earn the Adventure. Their son by the way was running around at our first patrol meeting trying to look the information up in his handbook and in tears because he didn't know it. I reassured him that it isn't a failure on his part but a measuring stick for me as a leader to see what we need to work on. Anyway, I asked our CC, COR and CM for guidance on this issue. It appears it was discussed at our Committee meeting last night. I was not able to attend as it was my 18th wedding Anniversary and I was not going to miss another one as I have missed the last eight doing scout stuff. Also was told by the treasurer last month that since I resigned as CM and no longer a voting member of the Committee that my input was no longer needed. Mind you I have only been doing this 10 years and don't claim to know everything but my wife is the next person with the most experience with 5 years. Most everyone else only has one to three years in scouting and only taken online courses. I was asked to help the new people get up to date on running the new year. Anyway, it was discussed and decided that any and all requirements on the Camp list are considered as accomplished as the Camp Director has final authority. Not sure what that means but I guess I am suppose to sign off on the award cards even though the boys don't know it. Should be an interesting rest of the year to say the least

To my knowledge, no scout has been told they are getting the award. Our Pack just started using a new software system (Troop Track) and I don't think the parents and most leaders for that matter know how to use it's done see what the scouts have earned.

I very much have enjoyed my time in Scouting especially seeing these boys grow and learn. Good point about Boy Scouting and the signed handbooks. That is one thing I have stressed is that we will be running the Den as a Patrol in the Boy Scouts to get them ready.

Our ACM is a little headstrong. He is a tech guy and is running the new software system. He thinks he is in charge of who gets what privileges. He doesn't want to give our Committee Chair full rights to the website and is the one that is suppose to administer the Program. Our CC was the person that took the applications and ensured they were complete, signed and taken to District as well as putting them into our system.

I would recommend following the Guide to Safe Scouting. I understand it might not be popular but the BSA puts out rules and guidelines for a reason. I myself found out how parents can turn on you in a second. I had a Tiger Leader we had to let go due to constant liability issues. I love camping and taking the scouts out in the wild. I feel it is a responsibility of us leaders. It is also our responsibility as leaders to protect the scouts, families, Pack and Charter Organization from liability. Scouting deals with many hazardous situations like fire, knives, tools, bad weather and so forth. Bad things can happen in a second. God forbid something did happen and someone got hurt and a family wants to sue. The BSA is full of lawyers and will ask where your paperwork is and if there isn't any, guess what, they will not cover you. I have personally been involved in those situations where you wouldn't think a parent would do something like that only for them to go on the attack. You have to understand that not only is the Pack and Charter organization at risk, but every leader and parent there. I hate to sound so gloom and doom but we live in a world where people like to sue. Good Luck.

So, I am the Arrow of Light Den Leader now since my resignation as Cubmaster several months ago. I have 12 Scouts. I know, way too many but the families are great and pitch in. 10 people in my Den Serve in Leadership positions in the Pack. Here is my problem. Eight of the Scouts in my Den went to Resident camp. I was not able to attend as I was working the Presidential Conventions and not able to take off. I had many complaints from the parents that attended. It appears the camp was run by immature Boy Scouts mainly concerned about their phones (not sure why they had them there anyway) and what music they were going to play next and not teaching the scouts the Resident Program. I received information regarding their accomplishments at Resident Camp. One of our Assistant Cubmasters put a bunch of awards in based on this camp information. I didn't have a problem with it until my first Den(actually it is a Patrol) meeting. I started going over some of the things they did at camp and wanted them to help with the Scouts that did not attend camp. I find out they didn't do or couldn't do half of the requirements of the Camper Adventure. They didn't know what a bow line knot was. Couldn't tie a two half hitch or a taut line hitch knot. Didn't know what whipping or fusing a rope was. Couldn't recite the leave no trace guidelines and many other things. Keep in mind, they have already been put in for these awards. I know the new program is "Do your Best" but I don't think I would be doing them any good just letting it slide. I am suppose to be preparing these boys for Boy Scouts in 5 months. I am taking them to visit several Troops soon and I don't want them to embarrass themselves or me. I have sent an email to my Pack Committee with my concerns. My point of view is that just because they went to camp doesn't mean they accomplished all the items on this list that the Camp Director put out. If the handbook says recite the outdoor code and leave no trace principles from memory and a scout doesn't know what I am talking about and still doesn't know with a little help, he should not get credit. If it says tie a certain knot and they don't know what I am talking about, they shouldn't get credit. I had a make up meeting for the boys that did not attend camp and three of those four are farther ahead than all the eight that went to camp. Any suggestions?

Sorry for the late response all. Have been working the BLue and Gold Banquet. Yes the model is 74251. I have bothe the OD which matches the BSA Cargo type pant and the Tundra which is almost a perfect match to the switchback. 511 does have several types to choose from if you don't like cotton, they have some rip stop as well. I have a pair and they are a little lighter weight but work great. Do a google search for them because some places have them cheaper or if you know police or government workers, the 511 company will give discounts.

I agree with qwazse. Get in contact with your Cubmaster or Asst. Cubmaster if you have one. They should be talking to each Den Leader each month at Committee Meetings anyway about how they are doing and if they need any help. I try to do Den visits with each Den three times a year. These help to get a feel for how the Den is run and gives the Cubmaster a chance to talk to parents. Maybe get them spun up to help more. Welcome to Scouting and Thank you for stepping up to be a Leader in Scouts. This is a great area for ideas and help from seasoned scouters.

Our Pack is very lucky in the fact that the boys participated in the fall fundraiser and we are able to have many outings to include a fall and Spring Family Campout.  The only problem with this is that the Tiger Den were told not to show up to the Fall Campout until noon because he Den Leader had to go with her son to have baseball pictures.  They really didn't get anything accomplished.  I am finding out now that there might be some "Pencil Whipping" going on.  They just applied for the Healthy Unit Award and when asked by the Advancement Chair if they had completed the checklist (3 den meetings with fruits and veggies served, 6 den meetings with water served and 9 meetings with 15 minutes of physical activity) they had no knowledge of it but wanted the patches.  Come to find out, they haven't even had 9 Den meetings yet.  A few eyebrows were raised at the Pack Committee Meeting.  I would be interested to see how other Packs are doing with the new program.

As part of the signing up process.  Every parent is provided with the Application, Medical A&B, Pack Bylaws, a Photo Release form, Family talent survey and Information packet that explains Cub Scouts, our Pack History and positions in our Pack.  Our facebook page is a closed page.  Our facebook page administrator is only open to certain "invited" people.  We do not allow names to be posted to any picture.