Ranman328

The other day I was going over pictures from our Pack Facebook Page.  I am putting together a timeline of photos for the upcoming Arrow of Light Ceremony of the Webelos from when they started as Tigers until now.  I noticed a group of photos of the current webelos II as Webelos I using axes and chopping wood at either a Boy Scout Campout or a Boy Scout Meeting visit.  Should I have these photos taken down as it appears to violate the guide to safe scouting for using tools.  Our Facebook page is open to District and Council leaders and I don't want anyone in trouble over it.  Am I incorrect in my thinking?

Olive Green 511 Tactical Pants.  I swear by them.  I wear the tan for work.  Never had a problem.

Have you considered foil meals?  We have done hamburger, turkey burger, chicken burger with hash browns, lettuce, tomatoes, onions, peppers, cheese or whatever veggie you like wrapped up in foil and placed on coals for about 20 minutes.  We always have some bread and cheese for those kids (like my son) that don't like foil meals.  We have also done soft and hard tacos with Spanish rice. 

qwazse - Already started the process.  Have contacted several families already.  I should have taken note when I spoke with them when they said they would not be staying with Cub Scouts that all of them had the same reason "Too busy with other stuff."  But I have looked back and 75% of those that left attended ALL the Pack events to include Pack Meetings and Camp Outs.  I think maybe I was trying to do too much and did not have a chance to look around me.  I always figured that if the Scouts were leaving the events sweaty, laughing and smiling, then my job was a success.  Not always true. 

Funny how in thinking you are doing the right thing can backfire.  I figured I would leave things alone and work to find a new Wolf leader for next for next year.  Our ACM had other ideas and for some reason wanted her gone.  We talked and agreed that it might cause a ripple effect and we might have an entire group leave.  He agreed and we left it alone.  I just the other day get a copy of an email she has sent to the committee saying I am the problem and that I have constantly changed the rules and punish her and her husband.  I have asked for examples of any rules changes I have made or any punishments I have given anyone.  To date I have received no response.  I did receive a text from the husband/Webelos II Den leader saying the same thing so I asked for him to give me an example as making accusations like that can be very damaging to someone's reputation since his wife felt the need to send an email to the entire Pack Committee.  He replies that he can't think of any examples but just feels that way.  His wife feels that we punished him/her by taking his $125.00 Den supply fees away after he spent $253 of Pack money on a one night Webelos Campout when he only had $50 to spend even after he was told he only had $50 to spend.  Plus he charged each person $7 additional that went as well.  Come to find out the campout was only for one night as per stated on the Tour Permit, Pack Calendar, Camp Agenda and parents.  The Pack only had $200 budgeted for four Webelos campouts (2 for Webelos I and 2 for Webelos II).  By the way.  The wife was the Pack Treasurer at the time paying out all this without any backup or approval from the Committee Chair.  I have since resigned as Cubmaster as I will no longer play this back and forth game with two children that claim to be adults. 

The funniest part of all of it is that I found out today that she is the reason that 14 Tigers quit last year.  She apparently threw several of them out of the Camp Kitchen when Our then Wolf Den Leaders wife was making a few of them some sandwiches that missed lunch because this lady closed down the kitchen 45 minutes early and told the wife that they can just eat at the next meal. 

I am also finding out that this same leader got into a verbal confrontation at our Bridging Ceremony with the same lady about the meal being served at the ceremony.  The leader turns and says to this lady "not everyone can be skinny and pretty like you".  Does this in front of other Pack Parents.  This leader was apparently complaining that we did not have any wheat bread sandwiches made.  The lady said that it looks like someone took a lot of time to prepare the food line and it looks great. 

So the ACM tells me that he has dealt with no less that 5 parent complaints since June about this woman and that is why he wanted her gone so bad.  He didn't tell me about any of them as felt I already had enough on my plate.  Life is funny.

Ok.  The new Adventure Program is eight months old.  During our District Training on the new program, we were told that it was a more robust program and we would have to make sure we planned ahead or we might not be able to finish and get rank.  We were told it would take about two Den meetings to complete an Adventure.  Our Tiger Den has nine scouts two of which started in late October and November.  The Tigers did not start meeting until the second week of September.  I was just told by my advancement chair that we have several Tigers that have already earned 13 Adventure Loops some with 9 and the new boys only three months in have 4 and six.  The Scout Store told her it was impossible to have earned that many in such a short time. 

I have checked with the other Dens and they are all on the same pace with each scout earning only 5 to 6 adventures so far. Seems like they will be finishing up about the same time they did with the old program.   I am no sure if there is some pencil whipping going on or what.  Do any other of you have any input on the new program and how many are they really earning?  We had problems in the past with scouts coming to a Pack Meeting earning 10 belt loops.  I don't want this to turn in to a "Bling" contest.

I am the Cubmaster and have done several Den visits with each Den.  Most Dens meet two times a month and each meeting lasts and hour to 90 minutes.  I have sat in on two Tiger Meetings that lasted almost an hour.  Nothing special, typical meeting with about two to three things covered.  No Physical activity and no Den Agenda to reflect back on what was covered.  Not sure how to gauge this new program.

Update: Did my Den visit last night. Meeting was to start at 6:00pm. Leader showed up at 6:05. Before meeting started two Tigers were pulled in front of entire Den and the Den was asked what was wrong with the scouts? I could see nothing wrong with them. They actually looked very squared away. Uniform on, neckerchief and slide, hat on straight, shirt tucked in. Looked better than some Webelos I have. She proceeds to tell them they have their neckerchief on wrong. These two had their neckerchief on outside their collar instead of under it which is perfectly fine and I am not sure why she did this to them in front of the entire den of 8 boys. Then she did a group knot exercise where everyone holds hands and tries to get untangled. This led into the 20 minutes of looking at abstract art puzzles. They finished by getting in a circle holding hands saying some chant I could not make out. No closing flag ceremony or anything like that. No meeting agenda for parents, no discussion with parents. I pass my notes to my Committee Chairman tonight at our Blue and Gold Committee meeting which the Dl did not attend or respond to the email asking if she would be there. It just so happens that our Committee Chairman is also a Girl Scout Leader. She reads my notes and says, you know these two things (group knot and circle thing at end of meeting) are what Girl Scouts do at every meeting. That is how Girl Scouts end their meetings. How stupid did I feel. Now I have a Tiger Den doing the Girl Scout program. Also found out that the Tiger Den leader will not be able to be at most of our Blue and Gold Banquet that wal scheduled in June 2015 because she wants to attend some all day movie viewing event. I had asked that all Den Leaders be on the Committee and we were going to do a Leader Skit for the Pack. Now the leader won't be there for that or the awards portion of the event (will miss her den receiving their bobcat and Tiger Badges). Very Sad for the parents and scouts of that den. Great Advice Gumbymaster, I think that is what I will do. Glad I posted here as I think it will help me, one stay grounded and two, stay in scouting when my son bridges in 14 months.

All very good ideas and I thank all of you for taking the time to read and respond to them.  To answer some questions.  I thought The husband was a good WDL but while attending an Eagle Ceremony this past weekend I was speaking with one of the parents from his Den and asked them if they were excited to be moving up to a Troop.  The mom cocked her head and said "We are not going to go to a Troop with him!"  I was taken back as I figured all was OK.  She proceeds to tell me that five of the six Web II scouts are not going with him to the Troop he and his son are going to.  It appears that they are not happy with the way things have gone.  He apparently does not have control over his meetings and his own son runs wild.  I figured that when our ACM did the Den visit with him in the fall all was well.  Little did I know that the ACM gave them a heads up he was coming.  I am scheduled to do a Den Visit with the Tiger Den tonight and talk to parents about helping out with the Blue and Gold Banquet since the Den Leader has not responded to the email asking for volunteers.  We will see how things go.  I am also scheduled to do a visit with the Webelos II Den on Thursday and talk to the Parents about the Webelos to Scouts Transition since it appears the Den Leader was not fully honest when he told us at the December Committee Meeting that all the Scouts had done their Troop visits and chose a troop.  I have done several of the Unit Assessments as the Committee Chairman and this will be my second 8 pager as the cubmaster.  We have pass with flying colors in all.  Our Committee did vet the DL as she started as an Assistant DL to her husband.  She attended all the training and appeared to have a good grasp on the BSA.  She then took a position as the Pack Treasurer and did ok at that as well.  Part of the problem with both of them is they are both "overachiever parents"  They were very upset when the Belt loop program went away as they wanted their son to earn all of them.  They want their Webelos II son to earn all the Webelos Activity Badges.  I get the feeling that sometimes it is not about teaching or learning but getting the bling.  Just today, our Advancement Chair emailed me about the Tiger DL sending her a request about a Healthy Unit award.  She wants to put her entire Den in for the award.  Problem is she has to complete a spreadsheet showing that each scout has completed the 3-6-9 (3 meetings eating fruits and veggies, 6 meetings drinking water and 9 meetings doing 15 minutes of physical activity at each meeting).  She doesn't like doing any paperwork.  Three of her Scouts have not been in the Den long enough to complete the requirements.  She hasn't even had nine meetings all year yet.  This will be another issue with her as well.  In all the years I have been in scouting, I have only had to ask one person to resign.  That was a new Cubmaster that got into a physical argument with a parent that corrected the Cubmaster's son about running around with a stick and poking another scout in the eye with it after he had been asked to put the stick down several times.  I do not and would not ask the DL to resign.  I would try to get the CC, COR and UC involved and try to get the DL to understand that she runs a Den that belongs to a Pack and we are all  big group of families trying to teach the boys something that is becoming lost in the world of TV, computers and gaming.  If that does not work, have the committee sit down and figure it out.  I have read these forums for a while now trying to get ideas and pointers on how maybe to deliver a better program.  Thank you all again for your responses.  Lots to think about.

Stosh- I don't follow you, what ping pong game are you talking about? How would her husband and son be collateral damage? I am confused by your posts. I was asking for advice on how to get a leader in line with the rest of the Pack. It appears your advice is to let them do what they want and follow whatever rules and guideline they want. Then we have a Den that does not participate in pack events and a group of parents that don't get involved. How do you run a Pack when you don't have volunteers to step up and run events? What do we tell our District during our Unit Assessment?

 ^{I had my Bear Den Vote on their Patrol name.  I believe we should be teaching the Patrol Method.  No better way to teach than have the group come together and vote on a name.  We bought them patches from patchtown.com}

Yes he has a uniform. She is the only Direct Contact Leader not in uniform. We don't require our Secretary, Advancement chair, treasurer to wear it. She has admitted to having a control issue. Her husband was a Boy Scout and in the Order of the Arrow. I am not sure where the disconnect is and why he doesn't step in.

Wow!  I didn't realize I would receive this many responses.  Understand these are just some of the issues we were having.  For our Fall Family campout, we asked families to show up between 8:00am-9:30am to set up.  We would have our Safety discussion and go over the camp rules and agenda for the weekend at 10:00am.  She told her Den not to show up until 1:00pm because she couldn't get there until then.  This is the time when the Tiger Families need to become familiar with Pack Camping and hear the safety speech, etc.  We had break outs for Dens to complete activities under the new program that need to be done at campouts and we had some Pack Activities as well.  Come to find out she separated her Den from the rest of the Pack and did the same activities we did but on her own.  I had many parents asking why the Tigers were not involved with the rest of the Pack.  Regarding the paperwork, there is also an "Outing Checklist" in the new leader and Den Leader book used for preparing for a Den Outing.  She refused to use that either.  My feelings are a Uniform should be worn so parents can see who the leaders are in the Pack or if they have any questions, they know who to go to.  It also helps in recruiting as far as I am concerned.  I feel if you see a lot of adults wearing the uniform, people are not so shy to get involved.  My Assistant Cubmaster and I visit Den Meetings regularly.  The only two people that have a problem with it are this leader and her husband that is a Webelos II Den Leader.  As I stated before, she is also a Girl Scout Leader and it appears she is trying to run the Cub Scout Den like Girl Scouts.  Another concern I have is that not a single scout in her Den has completed the Bobcat yet but they have completed the entire Tiger Program.  I have questioned this only to be told they are almost ready.  We include a Den Leader section in our Committee Meetings so the Den Leaders can go over what they are doing or ask questions of other leaders on certain topics.  We did have separate meetings for Den Leaders but it became too difficult for people to attend all of them.  The only person not showing is her.  All the other Den Leaders are happy and don't have any problems.

I need some advice. I am the Cubmaster of our Pack. I have served as a Den Leader, Pack Trainer and Committee Chairman. I have a Tiger Den Leader that has become a thorn in the Pack's side. Very nice lady. Her husband has been a Den Leader for three years and she wanted to get involved as well. She started out as his assistant and then moved to Pack Treasurer. This year they have a son that was starting as a Tiger and she wanted her husband to take the Tiget Position. I agreed as he was already a leader, what could go wrong. Well little did I know, she really wanted to be the leader. She was apparently running things and nobody knew. I noticed none of their meetings or outings were on our Youthmanage web page and inquired. That is when the problems started. Our District and Pack requires a Tour Permit be completed for all outings. These were not being done by the Tiger Den and they had taken several outings. I reminded them of the requirement and they needed to have it to our Committee Chair for signature. I was told that she was very busy and did not have time to fill them out. Then she planned an outing the same day and time as our Scouting for Food Drop bag Drop off. They ended up not participating and went on their outing. A hike in the rain and to visit a museum that ended up being closed. All my correspondence to her were copied to the ACM and CC. We finally had a meeting with her to discuss her role with the Pack. She started off by saying she did not have time to fill out my frivolous paperwork and she didn't understand why she needed to wear the uniform. She admitted that she was at the District Meeting when they said they wanted Tour Permits completed for all outings. After a long discussion, she agreed to take the Den "officially" and would abide by the Pack and BSA rules Policiesand wear the uniform. Now we find out she claims that the Tiger Den has completed the new Tiger Program in four months. When questioned about meetings not on the calendar she has outright lied, does not respond to emails or texts. She claims she doesn't check email for several days and is too busy to go to committee meetings or participate Pack event committees (holiday party, PWD, B&G). Sorry this is so long but in my 10 years of scouting, I have never experienced this before.