Ranman328

7 hours ago, SSF said:

That's a pretty damning statement to make against boys. 

So, because of this incident, involving this particular SPL, you feel with great certainty that boys will no doubt do something similar to girls?

No it is not a damning statement to make against boys.  Maybe you have not read about all the issues that transpired at the Scout Jamboree over the summer.  Dozens of reports of Scouts inappropriate behavior toward females at the event.  The fact that they will be handing out condoms at the World Jamboree is very disturbing to me as well.  You go ahead and look at this from your point of view and I hope it never hits close to your back yard.  Thank you for your opinion and I will move on.

On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 5:09 PM, Bside said:

Full disclosure, the victim here is my son. I am furious over this. However, being the Scoutmaster puts me in a precarious position. The father in me first wanted to react like my father would have. To encourage my son to go beat the crap out of this kid. My son has about 75 pounds and 5 inches in height on the SPL. He just doesn't have an aggressive or violent bone in his body. The boys know this and the SPL only bullied him because he knew or thought he could get away with it.

If I act too harshly, I will be accused of favoritism, or over protecting my son. If I let them off too lightly They will feel like what they did was O.K.. I feel like I must have a deliberate, measured response. Something that will resolve the situation but not turn my son into a pariah. Scouting is his only social outlet and he loves it. He has seen most of these boys as friends. He says he wants to just forget about it, but I have never been a parent to encourage him to just sit back and take it. He feels desperate for friends, but he just doesn't know what real friendship is yet. 

This situation on one hand is very simple and clear. On the other hand, it is very complicated. I intend to simplify it and take action to both teach and punish these Scouts. Firmly but fairly.   

Sir, I don't know what to say, as a father of two boys, I am not sure what I would do or say.  I am not sure I would be in Scouting any longer because my protective father instinct would probably have taken over.  I applaud you for holding back.  As a Scout Leader, I am disgusted that an SPL and a group in the PLC would do this.  There is no place in scouting for this type of behavior.  I understand the event was not a Scouting event but it occurred to a Scout by other Scouts in the same Troop.  We teach them to protect each other not assault each other.  Personally, as a Scoutmaster, I would have a meeting with the parents and Scouts that participated in the attach and hand each of them an application and ask them to complete a Transfer to another Troop as their behavior is not acceptable in this Troop.  I would hand them a list of other Troops in the area.  I am not sure they should be in the same Troop any longer.  I have read some good advice on here to let the District handle it.  As you have said, anything you do or say will be under the microscope.  I hope your Scout does not quit Scouting because of this.  I am very sorry your Scout and Family had to deal with this.

8 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

And, this needs to be documented in case these boys ever pull this crap with another kid. 

I couldn't agree more!  Especially since we are recruiting girls into Scouts.  Some on this Forum might not agree but girls will be going out camping with tents right next to boys.  If boys will do this to another boy, they will certainly try it with girls.  I am sad and disappointed to read this situation.

5 hours ago, perdidochas said:

Makes no difference.  A Scout should not be threatening to sexually assault a younger, weaker person regardless of this being a "non scouting" event.  It's not scoutlike behavior, and honestly, every boy involved in this attempted sexual assault should be punished by the troop.  If it was found they did this kind of stuff to a non-scout, I would feel the same. 

I couldn't agree more.  Just because they take the uniform off doesn't mean they stop being a Scout.  The fact that they are Scouts and Stand up in front of everyone each week and recite the Scout Oath and Scout Law and still did this makes me sick.  It also makes me wonder what they haven't been caught for.  No place in Scouting for this.  Any and all discussion in front of the Troop should require all parents of the Troop be there.  Make everyone involved see what is going on there.  Sounds like some parents need a wake up call as well.

6 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Oh it's one thing to say you're going to file a lawsuit and another thing to actually do it.  It might be a lot of hot air in the long run.  I am sure there will be some lawsuits, but I think most folks are big talkers. 

You are right, "saying" and "doing" are two different things.  Not a very good example to set for her cub scout daughter that was standing right there.  Certainly not in the teachings of the Scout Oath and Scout Law.  Definitely not in the Scout Spirit. 

So my wife and I are at the Scout Store Friday buying supplies for our Court of Honor on Tuesday and at the register there is this lady buying a pile of girl Cub Scout uniform items to include leggings.  She is giving this poor kid behind the counter who couldn't be more than 18 or 19 years old a hard time about how it is so unfair that there has to be a female leader at all events if there are any girls in the Pack.  She wants this kid to explain to her why this is fair.  She goes on to tell him that she is going to file a discrimination lawsuit against BSA and that she already has her letter ready.  I look at my wife and she is doing all she can to bite her lip and not go off on this lady.  First off, this lady appears to be new to scouting as she is buying all new uniforms for girls and she is already complaining and threatening lawsuits.  If you are already this turned off by the BSA rules, why are you joining?  I can see now that is all we are going to see is a bunch of lawsuits complaining of discrimination and wanting the rules and requirements changed to suit girls.  Sad times in BSA

7 hours ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

I am brand new at this leadership stuff.  In my view, people need to be "voluntold".    It's just like when you need someone to call 911 - you don't say, "Somebody call 911!"  Instead, you point at a particular person and say, "You call 911!"  Generic pleas for help often go unanswered because everyone assumes that someone else is going to step up.  Put people on the spot.  When you have your parents sitting there go up to a specific parent and ask them, "Will you take the YPT training this week?"  Make them commit or shirk publicly.  Go right down the row.

Been there, done that.  Get lots of head bobbing and it never gets done.  Gets to the point when parents just drop at the door and go.  They want to have their Scout in a great program but they don't want to have to give up any time or effort to support it.  I call them out in emails, in Troop Meetings, Court of Honor's, you name it.  When enough events get cancelled, maybe then they will step up.  I should not be working more hours in a week at my volunteer job (Scouts) than I do at my paid job. 

14 hours ago, packsaddle said:

Riding a hatchet? Ouch! 😂

might be funny to watch

On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 10:59 AM, packsaddle said:

LOL, I suspect that there will be little chance that a bunch of scouts will see how fast they can hurtle down a steep hill riding on a propane stove or hatchet.

Don't be so sure.  Some of these Scouts come up with some interesting ideas.

51 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Well, with all due respect, there's your (their) problem. I have little sympathy for parents that are not willing to put in even a marginal amount of effort to make things work. Find an hour, even an hour at their local library, to take the class isn't asking for too much.

It's amazing to make announcements at the beginning of each Troop Meeting and asking for anything for the good of the Troop and me telling the parents "We need volunteers to step up for events" and they all just sit there looking at you with blank looks.  These are the same people wanting the leaders to make exceptions for their scouts that would require those same leaders to take additional time from their families to accommodate the request.  Frustrating to say the least.

I don't like the new YPT rules either and it doesn't have anything to do with girls.  It looks like I am going to have to cancel our first Troop Event on Monday.  I don't have two 21 year or older YPT trained leaders to go on our five mile hike and orienteering course.  I usually put together some type of hike or bike ride on the Holiday's like Columbus Day, Veterans Day, Presidents Day etc.  It is a good chance to knock out some of those Advancement and Merit Badge Requirements for the new boys.  This time I have seven Scouts and five adults going one of which is a YPT Trained leader (ME).  Just can't seem to get the adults to take the class.  Had a couple of them attempt to take it and the web site crapped out and they gave up.  Thanks BSA!

On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 10:36 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

I already see  packs making exceptions and changing requirements. Biggest one is the Whittling Chip requirements. It specifically states "Pocketknife," not "plastic cutlery knife" not "imitation wooden knife", and not "popsicle sticks." Irks me to no end that I need to redo Whitting Chip with my Webelos since they didn't really earn it and the previous DL thought they were "too dangerous"

 

On a side note, I am also culpable in changing the requirement. I had folks at day camp teaching Whittling Chip with wood carving knives from Paul's Supplies https://pauls-supplies.myshopify.com/collections/knives/products/carving-knife which is technically a fixed blade, not a pocket knife. But at least it was a real knife.

I remember those days!  I gave all my then Bears a wood knife they had to put together.  We used this to practice opening and closing the blade and then I gave them all the real thing and we went live.  I had 16 in my Den and was lucky no one ever cut themselves. The funny thing is, BSA does not have a rule against fixed blade or sheath knives.  I allow sheath knives no longer than 4 inches in my troop.  I have not had any scouts cut themselves.  Folding knives on the other hand is a different story.  It is sad that people are changing the requirements and watering down the program. 

I just recently had to tell several of my scouts that they couldn't deliver mulch using a wheel barrel.  They are 12 and according to the new Guide to Safe Scouting, scouts under 14 are not allowed to use Wheel Barrels or wagons.  They can use an axe, hatchet, knife, fire and propane stoves but not a wheel barrel.  Strange.

On September 24, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Eagledad said:

Yep, and it supports my deepest concerns of inexperienced adults leading the program. I can't see it going any direction other than Advancement based Eagle Mill camping programs. 

Barry

Already seeing and hearing this from Adult Leaders within our area.  Lots of questions about making exceptions and changing the requirements.  Unfortunately, I think that is where it is headed.  I predict the first lawsuit no later than February 2019.

9 hours ago, gblotter said:

This is basically how our troop operates. I conduct the SMC and then signal the CC to schedule the BOR as soon possible. The SMC and BOR will frequently happen back-to-back on the same day, and they always happen withing a week of the Scout making the request. Our troop holds a COH three times a year. We set and publicize a cutoff date before each COH. It has proven to be an effective incentive for the boys to finish off lingering rank requirements and partial merit badges. We automatically assume that a few SMCs and BORs will be held on the cutoff day for that reason.

@Hawkwin I don't remember you mentioning the size of your troop. We have a smaller troop of 30 Scouts which makes flexible scheduling easier. I know of several mega troops (130+ Scouts) in our area. I have no doubt they run high-quality Scouting programs, but I can't imagine operating in that kind of environment. So much personal attention would be lost, and you end up with subcommittees generating long, legalistic policy documents like the one you describe. Different strokes for different folks, but I'd be finding a new - and possibly smaller - troop (as I've said before).

 

I love that quote. What a contrast to the SM for @Hawkwin

Yea, our Troop is only 25 Scouts so it does make it a little easier.  We have an internal award for our Scouts called the Scout of the Quarter.  We give points for coming to meetings, campouts, fundraisers, merit badges, rank, leadership, etc.  We post the running tally so Scouts see where they stand in the running.  We always have one or two scouts that wait until the last minute to get their rank in but we get them through like you.

Had a Scout email me this past Saturday night that he completed his 5 mile hike.  Included pictures of map and compass used as well as the route taken.  It was the last thing he needed before his SMC and BOR.  He requested a SMC and BOR.  I emailed him back "Be in Class A and have your handbook and Eagle Binder at Tuesday's meeting"  Sent an email to the Troop Committee and within minutes, had five Committee Members respond that would be there to conduct a BOR.  Proud to say the Scout earned rank last night.  Our Troop has cut off dates for our COH and September 30 is the cut off date for our COH in October.  It gives our Advancement Chair time to get everything together, go to scout store to purchase all awards etc.  We have a campout this weekend and this scout is attending and yes, I could have said we would do it then.  I might not have been able to get Committee Members to complete his BOR and September 30 comes and goes and he has to wait until January to receive his award.  In the end, the scout would get punished.  As I have said before, I will do everything in my power to get these Scouts to rank up.  If they put in the work, so will I.  I try to teach the Scouts that hard work does pay off.  @Hawkwin, Keep up the good fight.  Your Scout deserves better.

I have a discussion with the entire Troop when we start our Patrol and Troop Elections.  I tell them the election is not a popularity contest.  I make each scout give a short speech about their qualifications and why they want to be a Leader in the Troop.  I encourage the Scouts to vote for the person they feel best can lead their patrol.  Ask themselves do they want a Scout in as Quartermaster that is only trying to check the box for Position of Rank and not do his job and get to a campout and find out he didn't get or bring required supplies.  They will quickly find out how it works. 

I just had a discussion with my youngest son.  A Life Scout was voted in as the PL and asked my son to be his Assistant (knowing he is the SM son and would be at all the meetings).  As you know the Assistant Patrol Leaders do not get credit as a POR.  In our Troop for some reason, we do weekly Patrol Leader Council Conference Calls (Something I will soon change to monthly face to face meetings).  Since the elections in April, the Patrol Leader has only been on three PLC calls and missed six Troop Meetings, got in trouble for leaving Camp at a Campout.  My son is upset that he has attended all these meetings and has been the one serving as the PL but will not get credit.  I reminded him of the advice I give out during elections.  The popular kid got elected and he gets to do the work.  Welcome to the real world.  I told him to remember this when elections come back up and this Scout runs for another Leadership position. 

On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 9:50 AM, Hawkwin said:

Yep. Glass half full; win but still lose result.

Where do good ideas go to die? Subcommittee.

Both sides shared their opinion and the SM eluded to being incorrect without admitting such and tried to tie being "active" to the SM conference and I replied that being active may be a requirement for advancement but it is not a requirement for the SMC. If there is an issue with activity, that is something for the BOR to resolve, not for the SM to require in advance of the SMC. I saw a lot of heads nod at that comment but the end result was it was referred to an adhoc subcommittee, for which I am now a member, to discuss and bring back to the committee at the next meeting.* It was also brought up by another committee member that if the SM is simply too busy to do them outside of campouts, that he should delegate. I grinned and nodded at that comment and saw others nod at that as well.

Doesn't help my scout. His advancement is still delayed as the SM still has not replied but I am going to see this result as a glass half full result. I will now have direct input on not only this unwritten rule but also they vague and inaccurate rule the troop uses to define active participation (I learned a lot from the thread about what defines active). Even if the committee adopts my recommendation at the next meeting, it will still be late October or even November before a SMC is granted. Thankfully, the incoming SM will be on the adhoc committee so I will hopefully be able to influence him as well. I plan to draft a proposal over the weekend and proactively email it to the subcommittee members. The chair of the sub has not contacted us to schedule a meeting or discussion so perhaps I can expedite the process.

*In hindsight, I think I should have been a bit more forceful on this point. We have expert opinion that the troop policy is both wrong and that it isn't even a written policy - it is one the SM made up based on his incorrect interpretation of what defines active. I should have driven that point home, delicately, and then again requested my scout be granted a conference while the subcommittee discusses what the correct policy should be going forward.

Your Scout should not have to wait that long for a SMC.  That is entirely unacceptable!  I would request that either the SM do it immediately or he turn it over to an ASM to accomplish.  The Scout is being punished in this situation.  Absolutely ridiculous. 

On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 11:12 PM, Hawkwin said:

CC emailed me back tonight. Apparently they heard from the district. CC indicated they had already made plans to discuss this at the next committee meeting. Was not happy that I did not give them enough time to respond to my emails or that I got the district involved. I apologized for not giving him enough time to respond. I assumed the best intentions for four days but on the fifth day, I gave up and got the district involved. My fault. I will own that.

CC meeting is on Tuesday. Will see how that goes. I get the sense that this policy might actually change.

Don't apologize!  Four days is more than enough time to respond to a Parent or Scout Concern.  If their life is so busy that they can't or won't read or respond to emails, then maybe they need to take on a lesser role with the Troop.  As a CC, CM and now SM, I try to respond within 24 hours or sooner even if it is only a response that I have received the email and am working it.  Isn't is odd that they already had plans to discuss this very situation at the next committee meeting but they couldn't inform you of this.  You did the right thing.  I feel that I serve the Scouts ad will do whatever necessary to make sure the Scouts Rank up as soon as they can.  It is sad when sometimes the power of being in charge and holding a Scout's rank advancement in their hands makes them feel important. 

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

You don't think so? Hmm, and what if the scout refuses to recite the oath or law during his BOR. Pass, fail?

What if the BOR (or EBOR) decide to start the review with the Pledge of Allegiance and the scout refuses?

Sound silly! Excepting for the the Pledge of Allegiance, I have seen these examples more than once. 

I don't ever remember hearing the phrase "adding requirements" while I was a scout. I do remember being asked to demonstrate a knot or two and show how to make a splint using my neckerchief. Hmm, was I abused! 

No matter what side we are on with Adding Requirements, I believe the adults have taken this horrible action so out of context that they have lost the perspective in the big picture of developing citizens of character and leaders of integrity.

I admit seeing the "adding requirements" used so much over the past few years with the intent to force power over someone that hearing the phrase makes me sick anytime I hear now. 

My example points out that any person using the phrase becomes an instant hypocrite because every adult has some personal expectation of the scouts that isn't directly prohibited in the manuals. 

If adults can't find a moral wrong for making request of the scouts, then maybe they should evaluate why they are personally offended. If the adult's request is for the purpose to achieve a personal objective (such as requiring Older Scouts to attend all SM Conferences on camp outs to force more older scouts to camp outs), then state why it's wrong without the cover of "adding requirements." 

Barry

 

I would think a Scout refusing to answer a question or refuse to recite the Scout Oath or Law would fall under "Scout Spirit"  If there was a "Scout Spirit" issue in our Troop, the Scout might not have a successful BOR.  I have had many discussions with the "Committee" not wanting to convene a BOR because one of the Board didn't think the Scout showed enough Scout Spirit.  I had to remind them that they can not refuse a BOR.  They do not have to recommend the Scout gets rank but they should have a very good reason not granting it.  That being said, I am a Scouting traditionalist and feel the Scout should proudly wear the uniform to all formal events.  If a Scout can't afford one, I would have no problem purchasing one for him.  I would rather do that than have a potential Scout not join because of money.  As I don't agree with all the changes that BSA has made, I still feel that the BSA program gives these boys more opportunities to become better people. 

8 hours ago, qwazse said:

The guideline, what the BSA put out, again in bold ...

Q: Should dens for girls and dens for boys meet at the same time and place?
It is up to the chartered organization and the pack or the den to decide meeting times and places.

The CM should follow it.

This means if the COR says "Don't be ridiculous, Bear Den 1 and She-Bear Den 2 have room A from 6-7PM 1st and 2nd Mondays. Let us know when those two dens need more space." That's what the CM should do.

If the COR says "At all cost, keep that corrupting influence of a she-bear away from those boys." That's what the CM should do.

If the COR says "Listen to our parents. Support them." That's what the CM should do.

If the COR says "Ask strangers on the internet, do what they say." Get a new COR!

The cold hard truth is that BSA has offered no specific advice about what to do when you get one girl two grades apart from all others. (Or, even, when you get one boy two grades apart from all others in a Pack that initially started for girls.)

We haven't heard a lot of things. We have heard that parents believe it's ridiculous to separate the she-bear from her male buddies. I could be wrong, but those sound like parents who will proffer up the token trained, registered, female adult when asked. Pardon, me if I'm making a molehill out of a mountain.

@qwazse I don't see anywhere in your bold writings above where it says anything about BSA allowing COED DENS?????  I have said all along that BSA says they can meet at the same time and place in a group setting all they want.  What I am saying is they can not meet as a coed Den.  IMO, before any girl Dens are set up, there should be the correct "Trained" leadership in place to get the girls going.  No one should be waiting until after the fact.  According to the guidelines, they need to have a trained female leader at all events.

32 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I see no violation if you coordinate den meetings... see the FAQ below.  The only ask by my council when I followed up is that the girls and boys should have some aspect of the meeting separate (for example if there are subgroups or teams the girls are on one).  

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/FAQ-Family-Program-061218-FINAL.pdf

Q: Should dens for girls and dens for boys meet at the same time and place?
It is up to the chartered organization and the pack or the den to decide meeting times and places.
Q: Can separate boy and girl dens work on the same activity at the same time together?
There is no set rule or guideline on this. If appropriate, this can be treated the same as two dens of the same gender working together. It will be up to the good judgement of leaders to decide what is best for their units.

I don’t see a violation given these clarifications.

 

As far as harming youth for our convenience.....

My wife has worked (and is working) for private all girls schools and we have friends that work for a private all boys school.  After our experiences we have all chosen to send our kids to coed schools.  I don’t disagree that there are benefits but there are also issues in those schools and some negative impacts and on net we believe a coed experience in school is more beneficial.  I see the same with scouting.  

I understand what you are saying but that is not what is going on here.  They are talking about just putting this girl in the Den with the boys and calling it a day.  It is not a separate meeting area, it will be a coed Den,. That is a against the guidelines according to what BSA put out.  I have no problem with joint Pack meetings or even the occasional group get together if they are all working on the same requirement but not making one big group.  I haven't even heard if they have female leaders in place for this girl to even be in that Den. That is another issue in itself.  

The more I think about it, I would just follow the guidance they have already put out.

14 hours ago, gblotter said:

The September-October issue of Scouting Magazine makes it clear that BSA is betting the farm on girls.

Cover photo: Family Scouting

Letter from CSE: Justifying girls in Scouting with claims that it was all in response to popular demand (his lies just never stop)

Commissioner's Corner: How to welcome girls into Scouting

Recruiting Article: How to get more girls in Scouting with Scout Me In

Order of the Arrow Article: Welcoming girls into OA staring February 2019

Roundtable Article: Welcoming girls into a pack

Scouting FAQ: Uniform Q&A with feature photo of a girl Cub Scout

Cub Scout Corner: How to balance busy lives with a big feature photo of a girl

Ethics Article: Cell phone story focused on a teen girl

Main Article #1: Welcome to the Family - 8 page spread focused on girls

Main Article #2: A New Era of Scouting - 4 page spread about girls in Cubs

New Leader Guide: Feature photo of a female leader

Now tell me why boys should not feel they have lost their Scouting program? I predict BSA will lose more boys than girls gained for a net loss of overall membership. Faced with this reality, they'll change to program to make it even more girl-friendly. Boys are the failing segment of our society right now, and nobody cares - nobody.

Funny you mention all of these.  That was the first thing my wife said when she read the magazine.  Her response was "I thought this was going to be for both boys and girls, where are all the boys?"  

4 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

What policy are they violating?  National FAQs state boy and girl dens can meet together.  I do agree the must follow YPT.  It will be easier to follow with combined den meetings.

I do believe the policy is NO coed Dens.  They are either Boy Dens or Girl Dens.  You have obviously read the policy as you clearly state boy and girl dens not mixed Dens.  As a Volunteer who just watched a 40 year Scouter spend several thousand dollars of his own money and be forced to retire from a government job while defending himself which he did from a false accusation, I am just passing along information that if you choose to run your Pack, Troop, Crew or whatever contrary to BSA guidelines, you are on your own.  I watched BSA abandon a man the first chance they got.  Be careful is I am saying.  Perception is everything and if someone even thinks they perceive something unusual, they will raise a stink.  

8 hours ago, nateisen said:

Of course i asked the parents!  They think it is ridiculous to keep this one girl in a den by herself.  The only other girls that joined were Tigers, so it makes even less sense to put her in a mixed-rank den.  I am actually over the top with communication to my parents.  I am just here looking for guidance outside my own pack and council, whom I also asked about all this.  This whole discussion is about how I can meet National guidelines and still allow this girl to have a full scouting experience.

The only advice I would give is make sure you follow YPT rules and have all the correct trained leaders in place to cover yourself if you are going to go against National Policy.  It is my experience that BSA will run the other way if they can and not support or cover volunteer leaders if they don't have to.  I'm not trying to be a downer but I just lost a great ASM with over 40 years of BSA experience over a false accusation.  BSA ran as fast as they could the first chance they got when they thought YPT was not followed.  Cover yourself while at the same time trying to provide a great program for the kids.  Good Luck and welcome aboard 

2 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

Got a response. SM's heart clearly is in the right place and I support his reasoning, but it is still the wrong decision.Will be emailing him stating as much.

Good luck as well.  I hope it works out.  Your Scout should not have to wait.