AltadenaCraig

Amen @ParkMan. The Scout Oath & Law are the only policies & procedures we need. Clarke Green, nailed it for me on a ScoutmasterCG post from 10 years ago: https://scoutmastercg.com/troop-rules-or-resolutions/

@RichardB - Thank you for taking time to respond. I've seen other posts of yours and I gather you're either a professional scouter or closely-tied, so I want to also thank you for standing-up to my plaintive request for someone accountable to reply. Nevertheless, your reply really frosts me, it is so condescending. I've been a subscriber of Scouting Wire since its inception on March 5, 2015. I'm also a lazy manager of my gmail account and am in possession of all 215 eMails I've received from "ScoutingWire" since. I was able to perform a simple search and I'm sorry to say NONE of them makes any announcement of the change to the Aims of Scouting. I agree that Scouting Wire would have been a great vehicle with which to announce the change, so its absence only frustrates me more. If the change occurred in 2014, before Scouting Wire, then I concur with the others on this thread that several resources up through 2017, including the 2015 Guide to Advancement, reference only the original three Aims. So I'll challenge any other BSA authority -- Do the Aims and Methods of Scouting really mean something or don't they?

Just to put my money where my mouth is, here are three actions which I hope National would take regarding any changes to Aims & Methods: Immediate notification to all scouters of the added Aim upon adoption of the bylaws by the Executive Committee (while I wouldn't expect everything the ExComm does to be so advertised, the Aims & Methods are foundational lists which are emphasized during initial training across the org - Scoutmaster Corps, Troop Committee, and Charter Org.). Commented by Michael Surbaugh in an end-of-year video or memo to all Scouters Two or three PowerPoint Slides released to every Roundtable Commissioner to be shared at Roundtable. The slides would specify the change, the rationale behind the change, and place the change in context of Methods (which retains Leadership Development as a Method), answering "is it an Aim or a Method?"

Thank you, @RememberSchiff. Both of the references you cite clearly identify four, not three, Aims. But am I off the mark in feeling that these references only underscore my point? These references make it absolutely clear the change was intentional, and 1.0.3.0 identifies it as "significant"! So why make such a significant and intentional change without championing it across the organization? Again, either they mean something or they don't.

"Leadership" is now included among four Aims of Scouting (up from the previously clearly understood three), which are prominently displayed in boldface on the face-page, along with the BSA Mission Statement, in the 2019 Guide to Advancement. The eight Methods of Scouting, though they remain unchanged, are not so highlighted and practically buried on page 11 of the GTA. Perhaps someone on the blog, preferably a professional Scouter can speak to this? I saw where some of this was discussed elsewhere in the topic "Whats in a Name"; however, the root of this change was never discussed nor was any official BSA policy change ever highlighted. I have to say I'm stunned at the lack of communication regarding an addition to the Aims (as well as the apparent subordination of the Methods). I've been championing three Aims and eight Methods over my 15 years of scouter-ship and I actually feel foolish that I wasn't aware of this change. If Leadership is truly now one of our Aims, I think National could start by demonstrating better care and concern over our cherished values ... either they mean something, ladies & gentlemen, or they don't. I remember when AYSO - recreational youth soccer - added a sixth philosophy "player development" several years ago. That change was communicated far and wide, up and down the structure, because everybody in that organization respected and cherished the core principles. Far from being nit-picky, or trifling, everything in my professional and volunteer leadership training - which is considerable - says that capricious or slight-of-hand changes to core principles are significant red-flags in an organization. I hold the BSA so very dear, I hope someone accountable can stand up and explain the change to our Aims and its unacceptably poor communication. - - Craig

@qwazse & @Cburkhardt : regarding the GS Troop's decision to enter Scouts BSA rather than Venturing, I expect it's because BSA policy requires them to do so (at least until they achieve First Class) in order to eventually attain Eagle: https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/Implementation-Details-for-Scouts-BSA-Final.pdf It will be interesting whether they eventually become Venturers after they earn First Class.

I'm now the girl's Scoutmaster of a linked-troop. With the boy's troop (for which I was Scoutmaster the past 4 years) we share resources as well as the Troop Committee and meet on the same night. The SPL's of both troops have agreed to hold combined opening and closing ceremonies while the program and game are regularly separated. All this to say we (the Scouters) are making a good faith effort to abide by both 1) the letter of the BSA policy as well as 2) the implied spirit of guaranteeing the boys their scouting journey and the girls theirs. Our arrangement frequently requires identifying boy's troop and the girl's troop separately - and occasionally with a handful of scouts on hand it's easy to slip into "Boy Scouts" and "Girl ..." well, you get the idea. For us it requires constant vigilence over our language.

Very impressive, @MikeS72; thanks! I've googled dozens of Camporee Guides, but they've all been District- or Council-produced documents and only underscore the disparity among programs. Your link is to an apparently official BSA guide - dated 2009 so relatively recent. For me the most valuable blurb is "The camporee involves the type of equipment that can be carried in a pack by [scouts] and can be set up entirely by [scouts], allowing them to be completely self-sufficient for a self-reliant experience over a period of two or three days." Our district's Camporees have featured nothing like that, so this guide is valuable on that basis, alone. I'm less affected, however, with the document's program details - particularly types of competition and methods of scoring - on which the document only says "Camporee programs may include contests and demonstrations of outdoor Scouting skills as well as campfires, games, and field events." For that I'll keep trying, but this is very helpful. Thanks again.

Agreed. My troop prefers the single-serve PB cups (Jif or Skippy). I'll risk hijacking this "breakfast" thread by noting the single-serve PB cups, along with restaurant-type jellies and a tortilla (or the mini-rolls of ritz crackers) make for great PBJ lunch. Safety tip: When taking PB cups to altitude, be sure to pack them in a ziplock and consider puncturing the lids with a pin-prick. We didn't and found a mess upon arriving to basecamp in the Sierras.

I think we can start with some guidance & standards. I don't disagree and several previous posts in this thread underscore your point. Some Camporees (such as our District's) are 100% adult-run. Appears @cocomax is as well: While @qwazse recalls 100% scout-lead: Not to mention @Jameson76 point that points for subjective criteria such as "scout spirit" or enthusiasm and such are inviting trouble. Bottom Line: Has anyone seen "Best Practices" for Camporees published by any Area, or National? Seems like all of us on this thread, including me, are winging it.

I wonder if any Districts are holding separate boys' and girls' Camporees? Some Districts won't yet have critical mass of girl patrols, I get that, but for those Districts that do have ample girl patrols has anyone heard of separate Camporees? Venturing has been coed for years (and btw if shenanigans are the worry such would occur in Venturing, not in Scouts BSA, so that's not the issue), but I gather in Scouts BSA the thinking is the boys need their scouting experience and the girls need theirs. Consequently Scouts BSA isn't organized like Little League - with girls & boys intermingled - but rather like recreational soccer, where identical games are run on side-by-side fields with only boys v boys or girls v girls games. So should the goal eventually be separate Camporees? Such would not only eliminate the Camporee bias, but would help ensure the boys get their scouting experience and the girls get theirs.

Yeah, this nonsense was called-out in our District Comm meetings after last year's Camporee. We (adults) are taking steps at this year's Camporee in two weeks to separate adults who are "just trailing" and get them well away from the patrols in general and the competitions in particular. We'll see.

According to the "Interplanetary Chief Astronaut", in 1961 such a suit cost $18,000. But then it did have "two pair of pants". [sketch below from "The Ed Sullivan Show", portions of which featured in "The Right Stuff", book & movie]

You've put your finger on a larger issue than boys vs. girls ... re: my comments at bottom. Bingo. Four years ago I'd just taken a troop that hadn't been to Camporee in over a decade. The PLC agreed to send one patrol as a "test", and our next-to-youngest patrol was registered. Our scouts took to heart the Campmaster's instruction to "enjoy the experience" and my ASM and I left them alone. Agreed, they weren't one-month-fresh, but they certainly were among the least prepared. This as opposed to other troops' patrols, which annually take the whole thing so seriously they hold "camporee-prep" campouts and the like. Result? Yep, our naive-but-eager scouts took top-honors, as opposed to the others which had been preparing for weeks. Was there an adult agenda? Yes: energy & enthusiasm (which to ParkMan's point could easily account for the girls' success). Is such an agenda proper? Personally I hope we can soon get passed all these "agendas" and get to what defines quality in scouting. Candidly I can't easily define such "quality" - Is it trail-to-first-class scout skills? Or energy & enthusiasm? Regardless, how should performance be fairly assessed & graded? I believe this is the crux of the matter.

Ooooh, thanks SO much for reminding me. HUGE SAFETY TIP: Nestle unfortunately packages the Nido whole milk so it's nearly identical to their baby-powder. DON'T CONFUSE THE TWO !!

Nice tip about the Knorr sides, @mrkstvns ; thanks. Yes, our troop has hit on the backpacker's shepherd's pie as well. Our scouts call it "cow-in-the-cloud". The one tip I'll pass-on is this: "Nido" whole-milk powder. You can typically find a large canister of the stuff at Smart-&-Final, which is just fine as you'll use it again and again. Unfortunately the usual-suspect grocery stores (Ralphs, Vons) carry only the non-fat powdered milk, which is unusable for our purposes. But the Nido whole-milk powder is perfect for adding to morning Oatmeal or to evening dessert (just-add-milk pudding). For those of you who like milk with your morning coffee, this stuff'll do ya, too.

So this past weekend both of our troops (boys & girls) held their March overnighter at a nearby US Forest Service campground. The two SPL's asked my cohort SM & me for advice on where to emplace the patrols of both troops. Seeing an opportunity to work-in some European history and Norse mythology - as well as avoid the awkward "male patrols" & "female patrols" monikers - I suggested they might "place the Paladin patrols in these campsites and the Valkyrie patrols in those campsites". After some quick explanation, the boys' SPL seemed agreeable with the comparison to Charlemagne's warriors and the girls' SPL approved of the association with the selectors of who may die valiantly in battle in anticipation of Valhalla. Perfect. Saturday night they ran a combined closing campfire, with the Paladin patrols on one side and Valkyrie patrols on the other. During the pre-ceremony banter, one young lady struck a decisive pose, pointed to several individual boys, and said: "Lessee, now. YOU may die ... and YOU may die ... and YOU may die ..."

Very interesting topic. Thank you @shortridge . My $.02: Biggest problem with youth skills instruction. For me, it's First Class Nature; specifically 5a): 5a. Identify or show evidence of at least 10 kinds of native plants found in your local area or campsite location I interpret "kinds" as "species" within the plant kingdom. I'm terrible at it. I find guidebooks difficult. What I need/want to do is get a local botanist to really train a few of us adults in the field so that we can in turn train our senior scouts. After that it's purely monitoring/mentoring as the scouts can take it from there. I'm comfortable monitoring/mentoring all other First Class skills (Navigation, Knots, First Aid, etc.), but First Class Nature 5a is really tough for me. Biggest problem with adult leader training. For me - and I personally believe on this issue Scouting's membership will either turn around or continue to slide - it is: Supporting the Patrol Method I'm exasperated at adults who couldn't care less about promoting the outdoor small-group dynamics and who think we're failing if we're not focused on reincarnating individual "Daniel Boones". Similarly for other adults the only metric on which they're concerned is counting each scout's merit badges and rank advancements. Even after exhaustive guidance, these adults remain completely oblivious to Baden-Powell's admonition: "The patrol system is not one method in which Scouting for boys can be carried on. It is the only method." I'm enjoying reading the other scouters' thoughts on this thread.

Here's a useful and to-the-point video on the "Turk's Head Woggle":

No, no, I think you read it correctly. I'm being loose on the definition of "his own patrol". While some troops I've seen are rather strict in their construction of patrols (duration, age-group, etc.), others I've seen are so loose as to cobble them together almost ad-hoc for every outing. My own troop is somewhere in the middle, with established patrols supplemented by temporary "crews" for high-adventure summertime activities. Accordingly in this instance I imagine the SM cobbling together an ad hoc "patrol", including himself, for the benefit of the scout. Admittedly mine is a loose interpretation.

I may be whistling past the graveyard, here, but I'm hopeful the introduction of girls into Scouts BSA will spark a turnaround in Venturing. As Cub Scouts have sub-segments of Webelos, Tigers, etc., it's always struck me as odd that Boy Scouts (now Scouts BSA) ran from ~5th through ~12th grades without sub-segments of its own. Even G2SS discourages tent-sharing among scouts > 2-grade-levels apart. Alas, before girls were able to join as scouts, promoting a follow-on co-ed Venture crew - where late-teen boy scouts, but not the girls, could continue to pursue Eagle - always seemed awkward. Now, however, I can both visualize a smooth transition as well as foresee a much-needed follow-on program to keep my late-teens engaged. I just hope it isn't too little, too late.

Oops. My mistake. I was going off of here-say and I should know better. Here's an apparently official GSUSA document that includes shooting sports (p.139). My apologies: https://www.girlscouts.org/content/dam/girlscouts-gsusa/forms-and-documents/cookie/Resources/GSUSA_Safety-Activity-Checkpoints_2018.pdf

Moreover, her comments were charitable. GS/USA restricts range activities to archery only. Shooting of guns is not allowed. My earlier post, in italics immediately above, was incorrect. Here's their version of Guide to Safe Scouting: https://www.girlscouts.org/content/dam/girlscouts-gsusa/forms-and-documents/cookie/Resources/GSUSA_Safety-Activity-Checkpoints_2018.pdf Ref. p. 139

I agree - it's the MB Counselor's call. I take a different view. For the purposes of this campout, if I read the OP's scenario correctly, the group for which the scout prepared meals WAS his patrol (even if it included adults). Agreed. Gotta love any SM who's looking to set scouts up for success as opposed to nit-picking requirements in search of technicalities to use as road-blocks.

Of course there is! Here's my quote (with emphasis): For most parents that will be enough to assuage their need for involvement. If you feel you can go farther, you can train for the Scoutmaster Corps. BTW, I'll fix my quote to read "the PLC with support from the Scoutmaster Corps will take it from here."