Eagle94-A1

8 hours ago, jcousino said:

love to see who completed the Short term camping forms.

The Scout exec could have come or CC (lol).

 

NCAC approval was done by volunteer who is certified. Never seen pros certify events except summer camp when regional inspectors are invovled and no local ones.

8 hours ago, jcousino said:

i have always been told the BOR was for the troop committee to judge the heath and life in the troop through the scout's perspective.

Not to judge the scouts worthiness for the rank

BOR  cannot retest, what is signed is done its not up for debate.

Asking about how things were earned  goes back to the idea of troop process and health. 

The scoutmaster has already signed off on spirit and hours in position so that done 

Asking about how things were in that position goes  back to the idea of troop process and health.

Not sure what's left, sorry but at time adults on a BOR get on little power trip.

If there is problem with a SM then the committee needs to fix the issue or ask the CO to replace the SM

They really are the last with say so on scout Spirit.

j

 

 

From the Guide to Advancement page 52:

8.0.0.1 Purpose and Timeliness of Boards of Review After a Scout has completed the requirements for any rank (except Scout rank), he or she appears before a board of review. A board of review must be a personal and individual experience. Its purpose is to determine the quality of the Scout’s experience and decide whether the requirements for the rank have been fulfilled. (emphasis added) If so, the board not only approves the Scout’s advancement but also provides encouragement to continue the quest for the next rank. Because the board of review date becomes the effective advancement date, boards should be scheduled promptly as Scouts are ready or set up on a regular basis that assures Scouts are not delayed in beginning time oriented requirements for the next rank. Note that Scouts must be registered through the time they are working on advancement requirements, but need not be registered thereafter or when their boards of review are conducted.

Well my council is at it again.  I really wish professional training had courses on gaining trust, working with ticked off volunteers, etc.

We had a district event this weekend. No DEs were there as they were sent to another district's event instead. Not a good move to build bridges, especially since they are selling the local camp, which has ticked off folks.

And to make matter worse, found out supplies that were requested were never ordered. So the event chair was running around Thursday and Friday, paying out of pocket for items. Happened to me once back in the day.

And the pros do not understand why no one likes the council.

Update

Talked on the phone with CC and had a discussion with the previous SM who is on the committee. Developed a plan and we began implementation at meeting.

Had a Thorns and Roses session about the troop. Everyone loves the activities we do: Whitewater rafting, backpacking, biking, etc. The meetings are what everyone is frustrated with as they are unorganized, or planned poorly. Poor communication within the ranks, and lots of arguing because no one pays attentions and or agrees. Part of that is we are the size a normal patrol, but folks want to have two 3 man patrols, ASPL and SPL.   They will be merging this weekend.

What got interesting was the interactions of the Scouts. Some were into improving the troop, including one that planned to look at other troops this weekend. He had some good ideas, and volunteered to help make some of the changes. BUT the SPL, who has made several comments about leaving, was not really involved. He would start to say something, stop, and look withdrawn. When trying to pull it out of him, he just would not comment.

As for getting more Scouts, we talked to the COR about trying to start a new pack. Sadly the temporary pastor was not interested having a pack, and when one was looking for a new home, was turned away. They eventually found one with another troop that was in a similar situation as we are in.

I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

As some may recall, I switched troops 4 years ago from a toxic troop to one that was not toxic, but slowly dying. Eventually the toxic issues with the old troop were resolved, and the troop is thriving. My current troop has been active, but on life support, and now we are dying. While we scaled back on activities during COVID, we did remain active doing outdoor meetings, day trips, and even our own summer camp. The problem is we do not have a Cub Scout pack to recruit from. Nearly everyone in the troop transferred from another troop into ours. When we tried to start a pack before COVID, we got 0 support from the council: no flyers for schools, no advertising, no meetings with parents, nothing. And that effort failed. As people age out, move, or leave, we have replacements. So we are dying.

I took over the troop this year, and I wanted to empower the Scouts to do more because we had some complaints about boring meetings.. I provided  training and tools for them to plan and organize meetings, and it was hit or miss with the SPLs. Most of the Scouts did not take things seriously. When my prime troublemaker moved, I thought things would improve. and folks would get focused on Scouting. But Interest among the  is still not there. I have heard more complaints about boring meetings. I share resources to improve them. Nothing. I had a conversation with the SPL about how he can do better, and he has a "no hope" attitude saying "no one listens to me." He does have a point, he was one of the troublemakers, but he was more of a follower. But he is not stepping up: missing meetings without telling folks, not having meeting plans, etc.

After the meeting with the SPL, one of the Scouts in a conversation about how the meeting went,  tells me that the SPL and his brother announced they are thinking of transferring to another troop. A third Scout then states he will be looking at other troops during camporee. This shocks me because during their SMCs about a month ago, neither one said anything about not being happy with the troop. Ditto during the BOR, as the CC was shocked when I told him this news. I do not know how long this has been the mood, but I would hope my newest ASM, who just aged out, would have told me there was a problem if he knew.

We lost one Scout after summer camp for several reasons, but the prime reason was that the guardian said  the adults need to be in charge, and not the Scouts. Her did not think his Scout needed to listen to the PL and SPL. This guy was an ASM in the troop 30 years ago and has son who is Eagle. Another adult in the troop, who is WB trained, said the adults need to do the planning and organizing, and let the Scouts execute. My old troop was eventually did this, have the adults tell the scouts what is to be done, and the Scouts execute the adults' plans. They seem to be growing. Another troop like that somehow is able to thrive without a Cub Scout pack. And another troop, which has the SM appointing all the leadership PORs,  is doing well, but with the loss of their pack that may change.

So that is the backstory. I know I left out a lot of details, and can expand as needed, What I I need are ideas to reinvigorate my troop. I want the Scouts to take charge,but I am grasping at straws at the moment. I'm trying to recruit folks, but no one is interested.

21 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

  I would suggest finding a board member and voicing your concerns.   Just talk to them, you won't be tried for Boy Scout Treason and you may find the answers to your questions.

17 hours ago, Christi13 said:

There has been one time where I voiced a question and was informed by the Council President that I was stepping outside of my perview and if I did it again that I would be removed from my positions. 

20 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

you won't be tried for Boy Scout Treason?

Yes, you will... in absentia, with no formal charges, defense, or appeal.  You will be blacklisted and excluded from participation at district and council level.

This has happened to me and others in this forum, for asking questions about decisions, governance, and finances.

@Mrjeffis probably right about board members, but when word reaches the professional staff, you could (repeat, could) have backlash.  Just tread carefully.

I have personally seen individuals questioning council pros on finance issues be placed in the IVF. The SE played a major role.

I knew  retread professional who left one toxic council, and went to another when he was eligible to return.. First council found out and tried to get him fired and placed in the IVF because the SE was that vindictive. Thankfully the new boss prevented that from happening.

8 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

A few responses to recent posts.  As background, I’ve been on two council boards (a small council and one of the largest in the country, on which I served as Council President) and was directly involved in dealing with needed property closures and sales – but we did it the right way.  Everything was public and transparent more than a year in advance and all adult and youth members were given multiple rounds of opportunities to give input to the decisions – and changes reflecting that input were made.  Not everyone is going to be happy in these and other contested situations, but when Scouters have their say and observe that what they are saying is being appropriately reacted to, chances for healthy future organizational relationships are far more likely.

If this really happened, then you are indeed fortunate. In several councils I have been in, that has not been the case. A lot of behind closed door decisions and deals.

9 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

If your council is considering a property closure or sale in response to the bankruptcy or inability to continue funding its operation, you should be comforted by knowing that no individual professional or volunteer can sell something in our system. 

But the SE can manipulate the nominating committee to recommending "yes men" so they rubber stamp the SE's decisions. I was told how to do that on the district level when I was a DE by one DFS and SE.

11 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

Rather, interested Scouters have the chance to impact on such decisions with logical and businesslike argumentation.  We own and operate our properties for the benefit of the young people of today, and not to continue operations that are no longer serving those needs.  There is simply no justification to limping-along with a shabby and under-utilized property that is highly-mortgaged due to lack of operating cash.  Ultimately these camps are all subject to the market.  Operating a 300-acre summer camp that is 200 miles away from a council’s population base for two weeks each year (serving 200-300 Scouts) is an actual example of what I am talking about. 

Where to begin on this one. 

1. Sometimes the powers that be are so set on selling a camp, they do not care what folks want, or willing to do.  There was a groups of Scouters locally willing to buy a camp, and take over operations, that way it could still be used by Scouts. They were willing the pay the original asking price.  Council wants all the money they could get since the camp had a bidding war between 2 developers.

2. The same camp being sold at one point was THE most used camp in the council with folks from nearby councils utilizing it as well since it was with 1 hours of major metro hours, and their camp was 2-3 hours away. The camp had so much usage, the other camps were being subsidized by its usage. Only reason usage  dropped was A. bridge to camp washed out and council took over 9 months to fix it B. COVID, and C. they decided to not hire a ranger when the old ranger retired.

3. Existing council camps have issues, not only meeting NCAP standards but also programming standards. Summer camp has a history or poor staff and lack of adequate supplies.

10 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Shaking hands with the SE ?

Ironically, I do not blame the current camp situation in my council on the SE.  Camp sales were planned prior to his arrival.  Now his previous predecessors....

According to this https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/511-421(16)_WEB.pdf  CORs "Represent your organization on the council and district levels."

According to this: https://troopleader.scouting.org/chartered-organization-representative/

"The chartered organization representative may become a member of the district committee and is a voting member of the council."

Sounds like they are on the council board to me.

Anyone else remember when Scouts sat on BORs for the T-2-1 ranks?

11 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

For what anecdotal value it is worth (zero), our Pack has 3 Lions, 4 Tigers, 1 Wolf, 1 Bear, 0 Webelos 4 and 4 Webelos 5.

When I was the Pack committee chair person, we had about 65 registered and 45 attended each Pack meeting.  Pack registration is now lower than pre-covid.

This is the only Pack that feeds our Troop, so maybe 4 crossovers into a Troop of 16 registered and 12 to 14 active.  We usually get half to 2/3rds to cross over, and half of those stay one year.  We have seen worse, but we have seen much better.

And so it goes.

Be thankful you still have a pack. When we stopped being able to recruit in local schools 10+ years ago, my troop's pack dies. We are down to 8 Scouts, with 1 aging out next year. All of our Scouts save 1 either transferred from other troops, or had a brother in the troop. Major concerns if we are going to survive. and council is not helping.

My council has NEVER (emphasis) had an approved Cub Scout camp ground list. Closest thing we have would be the the Order of the Arrow's Where to Go Camping guide. That is what many packs in my area use. Good luck

I am wondering what the membership projection for court was.

1 minute ago, jcousino said:

i always wonder how they count. 

if a Webelos crosses over mid year is they count 1/2 and 1/2 , 0 and 1 or more likely as 1 and 1 (cub -scout).

never could find the bodies to match the numbers (I think scouts had a problem with that way back)

just my 2.3 cents 

john

They pick a specific date for the report. Whatever their registration is on that date is, that is what they are recorded as. For example, the  year my  youngest crossed over. if they did the report in February 28th, he was listed as a Cub Scout. If they did the report on March 31st, he was a Scout. 

Considering National has allowed someone in my neck of the woods to become an "Eagle" when there was clear proof that it was not earned because "you do not penalize the Scout for the actions of the adults" or words to that effect, I would go with it.

This is an extremely controversial MB with folks on both sides upset with it. Those on the extreme right say it goes to far, and those on the extreme left say it does not go far enough.

11 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I guess it is rare, but our council made night specific flyers, gave us yard signs, contacted 3 schools to arrange talks, and did the 3 talks. The district had one membership committee member attend our round up nights to help. They then drove our paper apps to the office and helped us fill out forms for those that need financial assistance. About 5 Cubs received financial assistance from the council. 
 

It is a good idea not to expect much, but some councils help a lot. 

Ah the good old days.

In my neck of the woods that has not been happening in over 10 years. We are not allowed in the schools., and council has been no help trying to get into the schools. Last time recruiting was the topic of RT, the pro was talking about how they would sell us recruiting materials so we could do our own recruiting. No mention of the fact that we cannot even get into the schools.

4 hours ago, jcousino said:

"Why is the world would any LC want to sponsor units? "

My belief is that most LC do not want to. But with the current legal risk climate and BSA national history ,they will have to or have little or no choice or no scout units .

My cracked crystal ball look At 2023 for scouting

• Less  local scout units less income , (less FOS ,activates ,ect )
• Less scout numbers less national /local donations income 

Been happening in my neck of the woods for over 10 years.

4 hours ago, jcousino said:

• Closing and merging into mega council size (much the same why GS has gone few unit large service area)

If memory serves, National put in their court documents that they want to go from 280 councils to about 90. And mergers have begun.

4 hours ago, jcousino said:

• Selling of now surplus properties (camps) building etc.

Sad but true. And this further alienates the volunteers, continuing the downward spiral.

4 hours ago, jcousino said:

• Loss of large numbers of adult from merging of council kingdoms (OA, wood badge , ect) 

Don't know about that. But at least in my woods, large numbers of experienced adults have left over treatment by pros. In too many instances, their knowledge, skills, abilities, and experience is irreplaceable.

4 hours ago, jcousino said:

• More loss of  adult non scout professional (Tradesmen that work at camp for free) because of a lack of local connection, 
• Loss of a lot of gift in kind from above

One of the great things about having a great summer camp program is developing connections to the camp. Reflecting upon my OA experience back in the day, one reason for it was the connection to camp. In my  12 years as a Scout and Scouter in the troop I grew up in,  we went to a non-council summer camp twice. We provided staff to that camp. We were strong supporters of the camp. My local camp has had so many problems over the years, very few folks want to take a chance with it. Why go there when better camps are either closer, or similar distance? No one is interested in volunteering at the camp.

Now the local non-summercamp camp was different. Council stopped taking care of it years ago, despite one of the largest council events happening there yearly. The Local OA chapter and Scouters volunteered untold manhours, and unaccounted for gifts in kind to take care of it. I remember an instance where a major volunteer organized workday resulted in so many folks coming out to help, that not only every project on the ranger's list was completed, many longterm goals were completed. But now that it is sold, no one cares about the surviving camp.

4 hours ago, jcousino said:

• loss of use regular folks because of the distance involved with mega councils 
• Further loss of income due the evolving recession

The most sadly a loss to the youth of what scouting should be and could be influencing their lives 

I hope its very cracked and non of the above occurs

john

 

Sadly yo are right. especially at the Cub Scout level.

4 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

The LC that made the video had a link to the agreement form. It said it is mandatory to do FOS, popcorn, flowers and any other fundraiser at the council level.

This would kill some units. I know of council fundraisers that work extremely well in some areas of the council, but poorly in others because of demographics,  geography, and sponsors. I remember "camp cards" that one council was selling, and not a single vendor on the card was located within the district. No body wanted to spend $20 to $30 on a card they could not use.

4 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

Camping is allowed at other council camps though. including for summer camp.

Every council is different, and changes occur within councils with each SE. What may be allowed today, may not be tomorrow.

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

An unenforceable edict??

My SE had already stated that a council board member would be appointed COR, and they would be doing their due diligence, INCLUDING SELECTING THE UNITS' LEADERS. (Bold, cap, and underlining for MAJOR emphasis). I see this as do it our way, or you will no longer be involved in Scouting at the unit level in our council. And considering the history my council has, I can see a lot of volunteers removed from their positions because they no longer support the council.

A lot of folks are quite upset with our council. They do not see the value in council operations. Paperwork gets messed up, delayed, or goes MIA. That includes advancement reports, registration, and completed Eagle applications.

Council also does not support the camps, volunteers do and then the council complains when things get done by the volunteers. Also not enough supplies purchased for summer camp so folks are "sharing" kits to complete MBs. Worse is equipment falling apart when used, including lifesaving equipment.

Council does not help in recruiting to the point we have lost 5 units in the past 10 years. Even when they did assist in recruiting, they would not listen when volunteers who live in and know an area  say the area cannot support two packs, but they create the 2nd pack anyway. This ends up killing both packs, and eventually a troop, within 3 years of the new pack forming.

As for programming, they do not provide any support for events when asked, then complain when an event goes over budget. Stuff that was requested the council order in advance to save money was never ordered. So folks are scrambling last minute to get the needed supplies, and paying more than budgeted because of the supplies are needed NOW. Or they create a second event overlapping an event planned a year in advance that interferes with the original event, without telling anyone until 2 weeks prior. Then when original event organizers  say it is not feasible, are rudely overruled. Which entails more supplies being needed to separate the two events, further going over budget.

Then there is how council treats its volunteers. When volunteers question decisions, propose alternatives, etc, they are at best quietly removed form their position. At worse, they are yelled and cursed out at and either fired on the spot or quit on their own.. I cannot tell you how many folks in my area have quit because of their treatment by council staff.

So I see this as a major danger sign.

Stupid question regarding

Quote

"settlement extends legal protections to local Boy Scouts councils and churches that were responsible for abuse and that did not file for bankruptcy.  Victims should be able to sue those organizations instead of being forced to seek payment from the Boy Scouts' bankruptcy settlement fund, which will not pay their claims in full, Dumas said."

 My understanding is that post-1976 insurance covers both councils and COs in addition to National. So why wouldn't the councils and COs be covered?

59 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

When the National Jamboree was held near Washington, DC at Fort A. P. Hill, the BSA would make a substantial profit.  The profit at the Summit located National Jamborees has been modest. 

If memory serves, the 2019 World Scout Jamboree was a net  loss for BSA.

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

To amplify @Eagle1993’s observation, we were swarmed with crossovers in February, and very few were lions.

Will not see the first Lions become Scouts until next year. Lions started in 2018.

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

With a one-and-done scheme of advancement, this is, in fact, what you see now.  Scout skills are dying out.  

Sad but true. I am even seeing this in my troop, and we attempt to be Scout led. And the councils do not seem to help. Many just sign off on MBs at their events.

16 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

I remember when the world crest was given after attending an international event.

Yes, that changed August 1, 1989. I remember the date because I was on a bus in Canada in the middle of an international trip and was told you no longer had to earn the WC. A lot of folks were upset.

On 9/17/2022 at 7:05 AM, BetterWithCheddar said:

 I just question its appropriateness on a Cub Scout uniform (again, I'm approaching this from the perspective of a cost-conscious parent who is new to Scouting). 

Purpose of the WC is to show the world brotherhood of Scouting. it is the one patch that every Scout wears regardless of where they live.

19 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Regarding neckerchiefs, when did they change from the cub scout yellow for all cubs, then a blue webelos? Having a different neckerchief for bobcat, wolf, etc... seems excessive. 

Sometime in the mid to late 1970s. I know I was switching neckers as a Cub Scout in the 1980s, but my older brothers did not in the late 1960s/early 1970s.

39 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

How many children start Scouting as a Lion and end up an 18 year old in the program (and hopefully Eagle).  I doubt that it is a very large percentage.

None yet. Lions came out in 2018. So the first group is only Webelos I's. Got another 8-9 years to see the retention.

Now I would like to see the retention rates for that.

Closest we can get is Tigers to 18. That data should be available since Tigers was dropped from 2nd Grade to 1st Grade some time in the mid to late 1990s.

32 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I've heard about that research, but not seen it.  

When has national EVER shown their research?

First, this should have been taken care of in 2019. All of the camps I have worked at or been to over the years, the records are available after Friday night's campfire, and you can get your questions about issues asked then. Having worked summer camps, I know mistakes happen, and usually are worked out before troops leave. Camps vary across the nation. Some have computerized records, some do not. Trying to find records 3 years later may not be feasible.

Second, your scout may need to find a MBC and find out what they want to do. Sadly they may need to redo it as there is no record of it being completed. And Swimming is one of those with a lot skills involved.

Lastly this really concerns me. 

On 9/16/2022 at 3:09 PM, ShadyRhoads said:

I myself had a run in with him as he wanted to know where my buddy was (buddy system) and how did I get through the rope that was in place to enter waterfront. Lol I was like I unhooked the rope and walked in duh!!!!

As @qwazse has stated, the Aquatics Director and their staff #1 "priority is forestalling death." There is a reason why the area is roped off, buddy tags and buddies are used etc. At most of the camps I have been to, that is an automatic ban from aquatics for the week because everyone is informed of the rules during the camp tour. At one camp I have worked at, what you did would get you sent home. Sadly they did experience a drowning, and they do not ever want to deal with that situation ever again.

I doubt there will be records. Needs to talk tot a Swimming MBC.