Eagle94-A1

Regarding Natives being offended. Yes, some are. AND some aren't.  One of the best powwows I attended had an elder talking about dance to people and showing his regalia over the years.  He had 50+ years of regalia, with one item looking vaguely familiar an Ordeal sash: He started dancing as an Arrowman. We had a wonderful conversation about Scouting, and the OA over the years. Best part was for me when he showed up to Grand Entry with his Old Style regalia and is Ordeal sash, and singled me out to show how proud he was of being an Arrowman. Yes, he wore that outfit and sash the entire session.

5 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

The program belongs to the young adults who are involved.  We cannot go wrong by letting them take the lead on what form the Order of the Arrow needs to take in the future.

Respectfully, and vehemently, disagree. While the program SHOULD BELONG  (major emphasis) to the young adults who are involved, it doesn't. While chapter and lodge youth leaders have an impact, sadly I have seen some chapter and lodge advisors take over and rule with an iron fist. Worst example was when the Scout exec and lodge advisor wanted to amend the of the lodge's by-laws, which required a majority vote of lodge members to amend. When the overwhelming majority voted against his proposal, the LA point blank stated to all present and voting that "I don't care what you think, this amendment will go into effect." sparking protest and outrage.

As for professionals, I have seen a SE take OA money designated by the Lodge Executive Committee to improve camp for conclave being turned into the lodge's FOS contribution because the money was sitting there.

I do not know what happens at the section and regional levels, but look at the current  National OA Committee at the link posted above. Of the 36 members, only 4 are youth members of the OA. As I stated previously, that is better than the 3 youth members on a 60+ national OA committee. That committee made the decision to mandate the cheesy ceremonies for AOL and Cross Over that sparked outrage in my neck of the woods. We had one of the 3 members attend a lodge function since he is from our section. He was constantly being asked why the decision was made, and he refused to discuss to answer the question.

So no, the OA does not belong to the youth.

This is a problem that has been bugging me since before COVID. WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THE WEBELOS PROGRAM AND WDL TRAINING? ( caps for emphasis and extreme frustration)

Webelos is supposed to be the transition period from Cubs to Scouts, not once they get into the troop. BSA in the 1990s realized the 9 to 12 month Webelos program from the 1980s and earlier didn't work, and created am 18 to 24 month program.  When I did the old Cub Scout Leader Basic Training, which was a day long class to train for ALL (emphasis) pack positions, it reiterated the fact that Webelos is different than the other Cub Scout programs, parents are suppose to start letting go and allowing the Webelos to do more. Training had language to that end. Even with the old Cub Leader Specific Training, the WDL training had specific language to mark the differences. When New Scouts had issues with transition, it was usually a result of WDLs not doing the WDL Specific Training.

Lately I see almost NONE of the Webelos being ready for Scouts BSA, unless they have an old School WDL who went thru the older training. I've talked to, and had disccussons with folks on the topic, sometimes heatedly, because most of the stuff I was taught appears to no longer be part of WDL training. When I reviewed the syllabus, whole sections that should have been different, appeared to be cut and pasted from Wolf and Bear training materials to the point that the word "Webelos" was not mentioned in some sections.

I know COVID screwed things up. This problem has been ongoing. Locally I knew what packs emphasized training, and which didn't. And I am seeing even the pro training packs not preparing their Webelos like they used to. We had  Webelos visit this past week, and from what my Scouts are telling me, we may get 1 out of the group because the others appeared to have no idea what Scouting is about, or are interested in Scouting.

15 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

You jest, but that isn't all that bad...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_and_Clark_Expedition

I jest because  Corps of Discovery was  the Venturing Honor Society volunteers created because they could not join the OA. Order of the Golden Dragon was the Sea Scout equivalent.

5 minutes ago, qwazse said:

So, to avoid any and all sense of indigenous appropriation, should the name be changed to Order of the Flintlock?

How about Corps of Discovery? 🤣

12 hours ago, KublaiKen said:

@Mrjeff, if you Google "order of the arrow national committee," here is the very first thing that pops up:

https://oa-bsa.org/about/leadership/national-committee

On a positive note, I see that 4 youth members  are on the committee of 36 members. That is a big improvement from a few years back when it was 3 youth members on the committee of 60+ members.

However it is still too many adults, even if I personally know some of them, and in one case worked with one of them back in the day. I know decisions that National has made have ticked off the youth as well as long tenured Scouters. I have seen an entire lodge protest some of those decisions in the past.

As for OA being the "All Stars" sadly that is no longer the case, and has not been in quite some time. When OA changed election procedures back in the mid 1990s, a lot of old timers predicted what we are seeing now. "Sash and Dash" is rampant, and the OA has lost so much prestige as a result. NONE  of my currently eligible Scouts are interested. And the only reason why the last 2 OA members from my troop did it was because Dad was OA back in the day. Between the loss of camps, no inspirational ceremonies, and everyone who wants to be in can be voted in, OA is a pale shadow of itself.

As for ceremonies, while they should not be the focus of the OA, they were what inspired members. Between essentially doing away with AOL and Cross Over Ceremonies, to the gradual removal of regalia, we are losing our heart as an Order.

I too have kept the Vigil.

Dues covered registration, awards, and other supplies. Pack was old school in that Cross Over was not in conjunction with Blue and Gold. So those who had the Cross Over Ceremony in December or January actually registered with the troops they were joining, not the pack. Ceremony was just that, ceremonial.

When youngest Crossed Over, some Cubs were behind for a Dec/Jan. Cross Over due to baseball. Plus Cub Scout Day Camp, which helped a lot with advancement, was cancelled by council that year because they did not want to send anyone to NCS (we later learned the council was in the red, but that is a different story). A few folks went to an out of council CSDC, which was a heck of a lot better than our district's, including the ones I ran. (a lot more support from the council). So the decision was to push Cross Over to BnG that year. My youngest stopped going to den meetings, and instead went to troop meetings as a guest starting in December because he was A. finished everything and B. chomping at the bit to be a Scout with his brothers. The $60 fee ( $72 with BOYS' LIFE) covered registration, AOL awards and plaque.  That was before the major jump in price though

19 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

Walking.  

I am so sorry. If the situation is anything like mine, I know all the emotions you are going through, and what you are feeling.

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

Regarding how BSA could do better for the nation’s young women: make peace with GS/USA, openly invite them to jamborees, and get beyond this family scouting doublespeak.

Didn't the BSA try that once in the 1970s, and the GSUSA opposed it?

22 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

You say this method works for you, with the real drawback being waste.  You can procure one gallon water jugs with screw on lids.... reusable = no/less waste

Yes, there are many brands of water and/or flavored beverages, that have screw on lid. wash and reuse.

9 minutes ago, curious_scouter said:

I have 4 ASMs who are showing as "not trained".  They all took IOLS at an out of council summer camp, I have scans  of their signed training cards.  Assuming that'll clear that up.  But they all show as needing S24, but every one of them has completed the online SM/ASM position specific training.  Should I just not worry about what the report is saying?  Or should I try to get it updated?

My advice is to keep copies of all your training records, cards, etc, especially if done out of council.  If you can get access to the my.scouting records, print the reports that they completed, and any completion cards they have, and give them to either your district training chair, or  registrar. The council registrar can fix the issue.

I remember one screw up with records that had NO ONE in the district  as trained, including out PTC faculty member. Spent 3 months creating a spreadsheet with everyone's information to submit to the Registar so she could reenter the records. 2-3 year laters, system crashed again. I kept a copy of the original records collections, and resubmitted them. 

22 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Which is why our district has gone outlaw for the last 15 years.  Our patches don't have anything that National has registered, but they've big, colorful  there's always enough for all the scouts and we pay less.

In fact I we stopped holding District camporees because Council takes 15% off the top for 'services' . Not sure what these services actually are.  But it did lead to quite a few Godfather jokes. Instead  15 or 20 troops just happen to go camping at the same place on the same weekend.  What a coincidence!  

I am told one of our events has gone rogue. Council took 20% for using their online registration system for the event. And they did not provide a thing except the online registration; no DEs, not MBC lists, no promotion on the website, NOTHING. Rumour had it that the SE was going to shut it down next year, because the council created an event for the same weekend, and he wants folks going to that event. So far, no cancellation, and even if there is troops will be doing their own thing, and not attending the council event.

Forgot to add some folks are so disgusted with council, they want to leave. One CO was thinking of using an out of council PO box to register in another council. Others want to make an all black CSP for wear.

29 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

My issue with patches is when using a licensed vendor the patch must be approved by some patch nazi and that$@& never approves the design.  I'm going to find a patch maker who doesn't need approval from the Viermach. 

Thankfully this patch design was already approved by the council since it was the summer camp design for a number of years, anniversary patches, event patches, etc.

With the exception of the two new guys from another troop, everyone was here when we did our own summer camp in 2020, and they have the MBs we could offer already.

I wish we would so our own, despite all the work it is. I was trying to talk the troop into doing a 50 miler on the AT since  summer camps are over $400 this year. Not only did the committee chair say it is not a good idea, but the Scouts did as well.  All of them said it would be a waste of a summer because they would not be able to earn any MBs.

I really wish National would push adventure instead of advancement.

Unfortunately because BSA is a private organization with the right to select its members, they do not need to acknowledge a CO's investigation, let alone a criminal one, where the volunteer has been exonerated. They can still permanently remove an individual. My friend has never been reinstated in the BSA, despite a criminal investigation being done, and proving her story was the correct one.

Please tell me you did not receive a notice that you are now in the IVF?

Good friend of mine was placed in the IVF due to a "scout's" accusation. He said  she made a pass at him. She said he was being a peeping time after hours when the ladies had access to the showers. The police investigation found evidence to support her story, yet she was removed permanently from Scouting. As for the "scout," he was given Eagle. Sadly the "eagle" had a history of getting into trouble and lying to stay out of it.

A year previously he accused folks of stuff when he was caught  after curfew. If it wasn't for his accomplices telling the truth when it came to reporting what happened, three good Scouters would have been placed in the IVF because of his lies. 

On 11/25/2022 at 8:10 AM, ALongWalk said:

My district has had some truly bad DE’s over the years but we have had some really good ones as well. Our current DE is probably the best I have ever worked with. He has been able to walk that thin line between unit/program priorities and Council priorities.  A great DE makes a world of difference for district operations.

Hopefully he can stick around and not get messed with.

My neck of the woods has not had a good DE stay over a year in 11 years. Since he left, we have not had  a dedicated DE, and they all sucked. Since the district merger in 2021,  we are on DE #4. One had Scouting experience as a youth and volunteer. One was fresh out of college with no experience. Third one was a Cub Scout and needed a job. Met him once for about 10 minutes. Current one I know nothing about. He was not at district camporee, nor RT, so I have not met him yet. Don't even know his name, but he has been employed since September.

51 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

One certenly does not "mess in your own nest"  because it is a career for many.  The BSA couldn't afford to pay me for what I contribute, but that's OK because like most I don't do it for the money.

It is a career for fewer than you think.  I do not know what the turnover rate is nationally.  But when I was a DE, we had 10 DEs, an FiD, and FD quit in a 20 month period. That was when we had 9 districts

14 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Yes, but he was a paid professional. I don’t know how much he can no.

As a former Pro, not much he can say no to. Stall and delay? Yes, I had to do that a lot to keep my district running. Saying "No," not really.

Only time I ever said 'no" was when the SE asked me to drive to the main camp and help shut it down before a hurricane struck. Told the SE that they are evacuating the area and I would not be able to get in. Still had me call the ranger to see if he needed help. Ranger had not only secured the camp, but was 5 hours away, outside the storm track.

52 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

Sounds like our lodge.  We had to cobble together an ordeal team for 150 candidates.  The lodge doesn't emphasize ceremonies.  Instead, it's all about parties during the large gatherings.  Who wants to be a ceremonialist when it means missing out on all the fun?  I tried for almost 2 years to get a team in my chapter, but as the older ones aged out, no one behind them made a serious effort to fill the ranks.

When National mandated the horrible Arrow of Light Ceremony, and the HA base commercial that they are calling a Cross Over Ceremony, they took away the ability for lodges and chapters to create meaningful ceremonies. Add to it the push to do away with Native American regalia/ A lot of old time ceremonialists like myself stated this would cause problems down the road as the ceremonies and ceremonialists who conduct them were the inspiring and encouraging symbolic force behind the OA.

24 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

I understand, but I  have had the privilege of working with two fine Council Executives.  They are fine individuals and it is/has been a pleasure working with them.  For these two guys I don't mind hoop jumping or swinging by h@[[ if they need anything.   They know that all they need to do is call and I'll be right there.  

I wish. I asked current SE, who was acting DE to help existing units with recruiting. Was told no. Later on at a RT he was running , he told us what we can buy and do to help recruiting. Yes, he wanted us to buy various supplies from council to do our recruiting. Thing is the schools would not allow us in to do round ups. We needed his help to get into the schools.

Council use to have a policy that no district would have a conflicting event if the council was hosting one. Well, he not only allowed a conflicting district event to occur, he provided little to no support for the council level event; volunteers had to do everything. Worse he did not listen to volunteers with ordering stuff.

One DE I worked with lasted 3 weeks.  Long story short, his neighbor brought him to the hospital's emergency room and called the council stating he would be unable to attend a staff meeting because of the hospital visit. DFS told the neighbor to tell the DE he needed to be at the meeting or he was fired. about 5-10 minutes after the phone call, she called back stating he quit.

One DE I went through PDL-1 with told us the nightmare her council put her through after 3 months on the job. She told us she had her resignation letter ready for when she returned. When I asked why stay as long as she did and doing PDL-1, she stated, "I've never been to Texas before, and I earned this two week paid vacation."

58 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

 I have respect and admiration for our professionals and will stand by these men and women all the way, and they all know that.

I have respect and admiration for the professionals that take care of the Scouts and Scouters. I will do whatever it takes to help them out.  But new professionals, I give benefit of the doubt to professionals until they show me otherwise. Sadly I have not had any respected and admired professionals in this area for sometime.

Since I have never seem NESA active in any council's I have been in, and the 1 NESA member I know has not received anything from NESA except a membership card, I do no think it is worth it.