Eagle94-A1

Is it this bad everywhere? 

In my locale it is. When the 3 districts merged, only 1 chapter of the 3  was active. And by active i mean having meetings. at onetime, the chapter met where my troop meets. But when they picked up the gear to move it to the new chapter meeting place this summer, a lot of chapter stuff was left behind. Going through it, a lot of it was out of date and mildewed. But 4 sets of regalia, relatively new, intact, and historically accurate, was left behind. Supplies to make historically accurate regalia, some of which was still in boxes or bags untouched, was left behind. Other stuff, plaques, scrapbooks, etc were left behind. What is especially disheartening to me was the regalia making projects were started when I was chapter adviser and lodge AIA advisor.  We spent a lot of time, energy, blood, sweat, and tears doing research, raising money, getting permissions, etc. to make and use the regalia. 

40 minutes ago, PACAN said:

Are there other UMC units out there that can share what they are doing?  

My friends' units, a pack and 2 troops, that are chartered by an UMC church started their own Optimist Club with the sole purpose of chartering units.  They will have a FUA with the UMC church.

7 hours ago, KublaiKen said:

Our Troop is pretty well off for a Troop, I think, and I suspect that if our Council got our bank account we would not see it back if we later found a CO.

I would NOT trust the council. I was told that the OA chapter's account that was for the camp being sold now has a $0 balance, and the OA chapter adviser and assoc. adviser have no idea where the funds went. Found out when they went to move the funds from the camp account, to the campership account. Shenanigans like this have happened before, and it caused bills not to be paid.

15 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Four-Digit Custom Unit Numeral - Green | BSA® (scoutshop.org)

I really like the more subdued tan ones for Scouts BSA. 

Personally I wish it would go back to red for all programs, including Sea Scouts. Save folks some money when crossing over, and cut down on inventory/ supply costs. But  i know they have a lot of inventory, especially Sea Scout.

On 11/12/2022 at 11:30 PM, mrjohns2 said:

 Wry cool,  it none in in compliance with the standards. Make a troop patch for a hat or neckerchief or temporary patch. 

May not be in compliance, but a heckuvalot cheaper and easier than buying veteran bars every 5 years. As for using location instead of CO's name, way things are going it is a safer bet even if not compliant. I know of one unit that has had 3 COs in the past 18 months! 

Well, they already documented a few cases of fraud. Plus there was numerous cases where there are serious questions. Sadly this hurts the real victims. Personally would like to see the fake claims get monetarily penalized with the monies going to victims.

Looking around, these look cool

22 hours ago, curious_scouter said:

Fair question.  I submitted my ASM application in February, my council still has not processed it.  We've been skating by because I'm still considered a "Den Leader" which does make me a registered leader over the age of 21. 

Could be a lot worse. Over a 4 year period my wife submitted 5 applications for ADL or DL, including one that was hand delivered by me with all supporting documentation. She was never registered. We would find out when recharter came that she was not on the charter, and resubmitted everything again.

We found out 3 months into the charter year,when she was a WDL, that she was not registered when we submitted her for the Lifesaving Award. She rescued someone who had a heart attack and collapsed in the lake and was floating away. Thsi was while she was leading her den on a trip at a local park.

Eventually she got registered as an MBC, after I emailed her application. She was registered for a few months, then the national's system dropped all the MBCs in my council, and she said the heck with it.

1 hour ago, Mrjeff said:

I really think it's comical when someone talks about firing a Scouter.  I know of an employee suggested that a District Commissioner be fired....

When I was a DE, my SE wanted me  to "fire" the entire district committee and get new members. Reason being the council could not move forward (read they would not kowtow to council) with the entrenched volunteers. I had been a DE less than 8 months and still learning the community and building relationships when they wanted me to do this. I told him "who would I replace them with since they run the district and our success is their success?"

Sadly I have seen Scouter "fired." They questioned council so much, the SE placed them in the IVF as a result.

Most of the time, the pros make the Scouters' lives so miserable, we quit on our own. I cannot tell you how many district level folks, myself included, have given up doing stuff for the district because of mistreatment. I am focused on my troop, especially since every time I ask for help, council ignores me.

Wish professionals understood this. Sadly I have seen too many pros treat Scouters as employees, and rather poorly at that, and they walk away.

On 11/6/2022 at 12:25 AM, mashmaster said:

Well that is just idiotic since they are different.  As pointed out they have different members but probably a change made by those in "Tan" that don't understand Sea Scouts.

Gott love Mud Scouts.

8 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

Precisely who does set a SE's salary and benefits, if you know. I would truly love to hear some insight into the process-who has influence and especially the forces that control/regulate those salaries.

National has some pay scales for the various types of councils that local council executive boards approve.

49 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Agreed.  I'm writing from the point that I am comfortable now with units that shut down.  

Understood.

Apparently my council is willing to let units shut down as they provide no help when asked. 

Reproduction uniforms are expensive. May I suggest a customized unit number from https://www.sageventure.com/ ?  Here are some examples 

11 hours ago, fred8033 said:

If another troop is doing well, you can be serving your scouts well by getting them into a larger, healthier troop.  It's not an easy or automatic transition, but it's often the best choice.

And sometimes it is not. Three of my Scouts came from the largest, healthiest troop. They are more adult led, and one person described them as "junior military." What they got going for them is the relationship with the pack. It is very strong. I lost one Scout this summer, and that was choice #1 because they are large and healthy. But it was not the right fit. They moved to another troop that is in a similar situation as us now. Prior to 2022, they had a feeder pack. Now they do not. But My Scout had a better fit there, and I hope they last.

11 hours ago, fred8033 said:

We (adults) can get so caught up on if we are doing it right that we get distracted from whether the scouts find the troop fun and meaningful place to be.  That means program.  ... Yes we want scout-led, effective PLCs, teaching leadership, etc, but program drives the health of the unit.

I think that is what has kept our troop alive. We have an active outdoor program, but our meetings are BORING. New PL is taking charge though.

On 11/4/2022 at 5:13 PM, scoutldr said:

Is not the cost of the patch part of the registration fee for the event?

On 11/5/2022 at 10:46 AM, SiouxRanger said:

I know of many events where patches to cover budgeted attendance were not ordered, with attendance reaching twice budgeted attendance.

Sorry for the delay in response, Just got back.

Yes , patches were budgeted and considered part of the fee. However Council has a habit of not ordering things, or ignoring quantities requested. And we do tend to order extra event patches because we A) use them as thank you gifts for sponsors and non-Scouting event staff,  B) just in case we have more folks attend than planned, and C) the local OA chapter buys the excess at cost, and sells them to raise funds for camp and camperships.

Best example is when I ordered a ton of supplies via my DE, when I had one. Long story short, only thing  the DE ordered was 1/2 the number of patches requested, Only Scouts who paid on time, and 5 non-Scouting adults who sponsored and/or worked. Late payment folks (which would have been covered if the request was filled fully), and no Scouters got patches. As for supplies, I ran around with my head chopped off getting supplies the days before and of the event, and paying significantly more in the process.

On a different note, supposedly our SE and newest DE made a brief appearance at camp. No idea what the new DE looks like. As for the SE, if I saw him, I did not recognize him. And this weekend's event was a council level family camp out, yet we had no professional support. Last weekend, there was another district's event, yet council declared it an all hands event. So no pros were at our event, including our own DE.

I really think my council is in serious financial trouble. Why you ask? Because after this weekend, no events will have patches.  As for the event this weekend, they are only handing out 1/3 of the patch. Long story short, The patch for the last week and this week's events had 2 segments that were identical, with the  2 additional segments for last week's event and this week's event. Council did not order enough of the 2 primary segments, and may not have enough of the segment for this weekend. And this is not the first time the council has done this. One year they had so many attend, and want their patches, the council had to place a second order, which cost them more money than if they ordered the requested amount. But this year they are adamant on no more patches.

If you cannot afford patches, even when budgeted, I think the council is in serious financial trouble.

23 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I find that the individual counselors do a much better job of guiding Scouts as they fulfill the requirements.

Your average 15-year old teaching a bunch of Scouts at summer camp??? Not so much...  A whole heck of a lot of pencil-whipping going on.

But hey, that's what parents are paying for, right?  Wink, wink, nudge, nudge...

 

Sadly this is 110% correct. And I would go on to add some ADULT SCOUTERS  (emphasis) believe MBs should be handed out like Halloween candy at summer camp. I remember fielding a lot of complaints one year when NO ONE passed my Lifesaving MB class because A) the class was to large (25+ Scouts), B) The disruptive Scouts I had could not be kicked out of the class per the Program Director, and C) because of said size and disruptions, not all of the skills were taught and reviewed.  I think many a SM just handed that MB to their scouts, despite them not earning it.

12 hours ago, yknot said:

GTA makes a point of saying there should be no retesting -- that if a Scoutmaster has cleared a scout for a BOR then in his or her eyes, the youth has proven themselves ready... I think it's odd that the BOR's reaction was punitive toward the scout rather than introspective about themselves. A BOR is essentially confirming rank completion in a scout who has been presented by the scoutmaster. 

page 52 of the Guide to Advancement states:  "[BOR's] purpose is to determine the quality of the Scout’s experience and decide whether the requirements for the rank have been fulfilled. If so, the board not only approves the Scout’s advancement but also provides encouragement to continue the quest for the next rank. (emphasis added)"

Later on Page 52 it states that it is possible to fail a BOR. While a BOR must be granted whenever the Scout requests it,  "In a case where there is concern that the requirements for a rank as written have not been fulfilled, it is appropriate to advise the Scout that he or she might not pass the board and to make suggestions about what might be done to improve the chances for success."  Page 54 states 'If a board does not approve, the candidate must be so informed and told what can be done to improve.  If it is thought that a Scout, before his or her 18th birthday, can benefit from an opportunity to properly complete the requirements, the board may adjourn and reconvene at a later date. If the candidate agrees to this, then if possible, the same members should reassemble. If the candidate does not agree, then the board must make its decision at that point. In any case, a follow-up letter must be promptly sent to a Scout who is turned down. A copy of the letter should also be sent to the council’s designated appeals coordinator, council advancement chair, and advancement staff advisor. The letter must include actions advised that may lead to advancement, and also an explanation of appeal procedures."

If a Scout is not responsive to questions, how can the BOR confirm the requirements were actually fulfilled, per the GTA cited above? In over 35 years of sitting on BORs, only once was a Scout not able to answer fully the questions asked by the BOR. Even then, that one Eagle apologized profusely for not being able to recall things and mentioned how he suffered a traumatic brain injury (TBI) in a car accident that has affected his memory. Knowing the story of the accident, he was nicknamed the "Miracle Eagle," because his injuries were so bad, he should have died in the accident. he had 2+ years of hospitalization, physical and occupational rehab, and ongoing neuro care due to the TBI.

9 hours ago, jcousino said:

 Let the vol. run and plan the event just be their if needed , helps when you come to me asking for money if i have talked with you at events. 

When I was a DE, we had to go to every district event for that very reason. Heck I remember flying in from Dallas after two weeks of training, washing clothes while packing a backpack, and going to camp to help teach the district ITOLS class the very day I got home. Another DE, on medically endorsed light duties after a surgery, had to commute back and forth from his house to a camporee, about 1:15 drive one way.

3 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Nice sentiment, but when was the last district or council event that a professional was the "Face Of The Event?"

In my experience, never.  (My impression is "Let the volunteers take the heat.")

That IS the way it is. It is always the volunteers fault, XYZ happened.  Everyone has examples of that one.

AND in the rare cases that volunteers are not involved, it is always the DE's fault, never the council's upper management. I saw a professional lose their job over a fundraising dinner that the upper management organized and NEVER told him that he was responsible for until 2 months before the event. No advertising was done prior to him taking over, and the keynote speaker passed away between when it was first planned, and when the pro was given responsibility for it. YET the SE did not tell him about the death, and all the advertisements had the deceased's name as the keynote. It was a disaster, and he lost his job over it.

3 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I know many folks who have turned to making their contributions to the Movement by making gifts in kind, instead of cash, and one person who changed their entire estate plan to the tune of about a million, and another of $750,000.

In my neck of the woods, most gifts in kind were towards the local camp, which is now being sold. Equipment that was donated for the express purpose of helping maintain that camp was taken to the main camp, despite the camp being open for over a year after the equipment was removed. No one was told about this, and it was discovered when folks when to clean up the camp for an event, and the equipment they relied on was gone. They even took some personal equipment that folks left at the camp so they didn't have to bring it back and forth. They got their stuff back only when they threatened to file a police report.

As for donations of any kind, I do not know anyone at the unit level who is contributing to FOS. Many units no longer buy supplies from the local council, instead going to two nearby, and closer, out of council stores.

Quote

Councils do not see the folks whose contributions are changed from Boy Scouts to other charities.  The councils never knew of the potential bequests, and never hear that the BSA has been dropped as a beneficiary.

Immeasurable Phantom Losses.

Understatement. I know two large contributors who have stopped supporting Scouting altogether, and I would not doubt changed their wills. Another donor is only making contributions to a specific event. His goal is to cut registration so that as many Scouts can go to it as possible.

3 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

I would not be surprised at all to see annual YPT come about as a part of the restructuring plan once the bankruptcy if finalized.

We were told effective 2023 that will be the new norm.

@jcousino, Lots of forms has the SE's signature on it. BSA Lifeguard is one example of a form that they sign off on.

8 hours ago, jcousino said:

love to see who completed the Short term camping forms.

The Scout exec could have come or CC (lol).

 

NCAC approval was done by volunteer who is certified. Never seen pros certify events except summer camp when regional inspectors are invovled and no local ones.

8 hours ago, jcousino said:

i have always been told the BOR was for the troop committee to judge the heath and life in the troop through the scout's perspective.

Not to judge the scouts worthiness for the rank

BOR  cannot retest, what is signed is done its not up for debate.

Asking about how things were earned  goes back to the idea of troop process and health. 

The scoutmaster has already signed off on spirit and hours in position so that done 

Asking about how things were in that position goes  back to the idea of troop process and health.

Not sure what's left, sorry but at time adults on a BOR get on little power trip.

If there is problem with a SM then the committee needs to fix the issue or ask the CO to replace the SM

They really are the last with say so on scout Spirit.

j

 

 

From the Guide to Advancement page 52:

8.0.0.1 Purpose and Timeliness of Boards of Review After a Scout has completed the requirements for any rank (except Scout rank), he or she appears before a board of review. A board of review must be a personal and individual experience. Its purpose is to determine the quality of the Scout’s experience and decide whether the requirements for the rank have been fulfilled. (emphasis added) If so, the board not only approves the Scout’s advancement but also provides encouragement to continue the quest for the next rank. Because the board of review date becomes the effective advancement date, boards should be scheduled promptly as Scouts are ready or set up on a regular basis that assures Scouts are not delayed in beginning time oriented requirements for the next rank. Note that Scouts must be registered through the time they are working on advancement requirements, but need not be registered thereafter or when their boards of review are conducted.

Well my council is at it again.  I really wish professional training had courses on gaining trust, working with ticked off volunteers, etc.

We had a district event this weekend. No DEs were there as they were sent to another district's event instead. Not a good move to build bridges, especially since they are selling the local camp, which has ticked off folks.

And to make matter worse, found out supplies that were requested were never ordered. So the event chair was running around Thursday and Friday, paying out of pocket for items. Happened to me once back in the day.

And the pros do not understand why no one likes the council.

Update

Talked on the phone with CC and had a discussion with the previous SM who is on the committee. Developed a plan and we began implementation at meeting.

Had a Thorns and Roses session about the troop. Everyone loves the activities we do: Whitewater rafting, backpacking, biking, etc. The meetings are what everyone is frustrated with as they are unorganized, or planned poorly. Poor communication within the ranks, and lots of arguing because no one pays attentions and or agrees. Part of that is we are the size a normal patrol, but folks want to have two 3 man patrols, ASPL and SPL.   They will be merging this weekend.

What got interesting was the interactions of the Scouts. Some were into improving the troop, including one that planned to look at other troops this weekend. He had some good ideas, and volunteered to help make some of the changes. BUT the SPL, who has made several comments about leaving, was not really involved. He would start to say something, stop, and look withdrawn. When trying to pull it out of him, he just would not comment.

As for getting more Scouts, we talked to the COR about trying to start a new pack. Sadly the temporary pastor was not interested having a pack, and when one was looking for a new home, was turned away. They eventually found one with another troop that was in a similar situation as we are in.

I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

As some may recall, I switched troops 4 years ago from a toxic troop to one that was not toxic, but slowly dying. Eventually the toxic issues with the old troop were resolved, and the troop is thriving. My current troop has been active, but on life support, and now we are dying. While we scaled back on activities during COVID, we did remain active doing outdoor meetings, day trips, and even our own summer camp. The problem is we do not have a Cub Scout pack to recruit from. Nearly everyone in the troop transferred from another troop into ours. When we tried to start a pack before COVID, we got 0 support from the council: no flyers for schools, no advertising, no meetings with parents, nothing. And that effort failed. As people age out, move, or leave, we have replacements. So we are dying.

I took over the troop this year, and I wanted to empower the Scouts to do more because we had some complaints about boring meetings.. I provided  training and tools for them to plan and organize meetings, and it was hit or miss with the SPLs. Most of the Scouts did not take things seriously. When my prime troublemaker moved, I thought things would improve. and folks would get focused on Scouting. But Interest among the  is still not there. I have heard more complaints about boring meetings. I share resources to improve them. Nothing. I had a conversation with the SPL about how he can do better, and he has a "no hope" attitude saying "no one listens to me." He does have a point, he was one of the troublemakers, but he was more of a follower. But he is not stepping up: missing meetings without telling folks, not having meeting plans, etc.

After the meeting with the SPL, one of the Scouts in a conversation about how the meeting went,  tells me that the SPL and his brother announced they are thinking of transferring to another troop. A third Scout then states he will be looking at other troops during camporee. This shocks me because during their SMCs about a month ago, neither one said anything about not being happy with the troop. Ditto during the BOR, as the CC was shocked when I told him this news. I do not know how long this has been the mood, but I would hope my newest ASM, who just aged out, would have told me there was a problem if he knew.

We lost one Scout after summer camp for several reasons, but the prime reason was that the guardian said  the adults need to be in charge, and not the Scouts. Her did not think his Scout needed to listen to the PL and SPL. This guy was an ASM in the troop 30 years ago and has son who is Eagle. Another adult in the troop, who is WB trained, said the adults need to do the planning and organizing, and let the Scouts execute. My old troop was eventually did this, have the adults tell the scouts what is to be done, and the Scouts execute the adults' plans. They seem to be growing. Another troop like that somehow is able to thrive without a Cub Scout pack. And another troop, which has the SM appointing all the leadership PORs,  is doing well, but with the loss of their pack that may change.

So that is the backstory. I know I left out a lot of details, and can expand as needed, What I I need are ideas to reinvigorate my troop. I want the Scouts to take charge,but I am grasping at straws at the moment. I'm trying to recruit folks, but no one is interested.