Eagle94-A1

14 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Yes, but he was a paid professional. I don’t know how much he can no.

As a former Pro, not much he can say no to. Stall and delay? Yes, I had to do that a lot to keep my district running. Saying "No," not really.

Only time I ever said 'no" was when the SE asked me to drive to the main camp and help shut it down before a hurricane struck. Told the SE that they are evacuating the area and I would not be able to get in. Still had me call the ranger to see if he needed help. Ranger had not only secured the camp, but was 5 hours away, outside the storm track.

52 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

Sounds like our lodge.  We had to cobble together an ordeal team for 150 candidates.  The lodge doesn't emphasize ceremonies.  Instead, it's all about parties during the large gatherings.  Who wants to be a ceremonialist when it means missing out on all the fun?  I tried for almost 2 years to get a team in my chapter, but as the older ones aged out, no one behind them made a serious effort to fill the ranks.

When National mandated the horrible Arrow of Light Ceremony, and the HA base commercial that they are calling a Cross Over Ceremony, they took away the ability for lodges and chapters to create meaningful ceremonies. Add to it the push to do away with Native American regalia/ A lot of old time ceremonialists like myself stated this would cause problems down the road as the ceremonies and ceremonialists who conduct them were the inspiring and encouraging symbolic force behind the OA.

24 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

I understand, but I  have had the privilege of working with two fine Council Executives.  They are fine individuals and it is/has been a pleasure working with them.  For these two guys I don't mind hoop jumping or swinging by h@[[ if they need anything.   They know that all they need to do is call and I'll be right there.  

I wish. I asked current SE, who was acting DE to help existing units with recruiting. Was told no. Later on at a RT he was running , he told us what we can buy and do to help recruiting. Yes, he wanted us to buy various supplies from council to do our recruiting. Thing is the schools would not allow us in to do round ups. We needed his help to get into the schools.

Council use to have a policy that no district would have a conflicting event if the council was hosting one. Well, he not only allowed a conflicting district event to occur, he provided little to no support for the council level event; volunteers had to do everything. Worse he did not listen to volunteers with ordering stuff.

One DE I worked with lasted 3 weeks.  Long story short, his neighbor brought him to the hospital's emergency room and called the council stating he would be unable to attend a staff meeting because of the hospital visit. DFS told the neighbor to tell the DE he needed to be at the meeting or he was fired. about 5-10 minutes after the phone call, she called back stating he quit.

One DE I went through PDL-1 with told us the nightmare her council put her through after 3 months on the job. She told us she had her resignation letter ready for when she returned. When I asked why stay as long as she did and doing PDL-1, she stated, "I've never been to Texas before, and I earned this two week paid vacation."

58 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

 I have respect and admiration for our professionals and will stand by these men and women all the way, and they all know that.

I have respect and admiration for the professionals that take care of the Scouts and Scouters. I will do whatever it takes to help them out.  But new professionals, I give benefit of the doubt to professionals until they show me otherwise. Sadly I have not had any respected and admired professionals in this area for sometime.

Since I have never seem NESA active in any council's I have been in, and the 1 NESA member I know has not received anything from NESA except a membership card, I do no think it is worth it.

Is it this bad everywhere? 

In my locale it is. When the 3 districts merged, only 1 chapter of the 3  was active. And by active i mean having meetings. at onetime, the chapter met where my troop meets. But when they picked up the gear to move it to the new chapter meeting place this summer, a lot of chapter stuff was left behind. Going through it, a lot of it was out of date and mildewed. But 4 sets of regalia, relatively new, intact, and historically accurate, was left behind. Supplies to make historically accurate regalia, some of which was still in boxes or bags untouched, was left behind. Other stuff, plaques, scrapbooks, etc were left behind. What is especially disheartening to me was the regalia making projects were started when I was chapter adviser and lodge AIA advisor.  We spent a lot of time, energy, blood, sweat, and tears doing research, raising money, getting permissions, etc. to make and use the regalia. 

40 minutes ago, PACAN said:

Are there other UMC units out there that can share what they are doing?  

My friends' units, a pack and 2 troops, that are chartered by an UMC church started their own Optimist Club with the sole purpose of chartering units.  They will have a FUA with the UMC church.

7 hours ago, KublaiKen said:

Our Troop is pretty well off for a Troop, I think, and I suspect that if our Council got our bank account we would not see it back if we later found a CO.

I would NOT trust the council. I was told that the OA chapter's account that was for the camp being sold now has a $0 balance, and the OA chapter adviser and assoc. adviser have no idea where the funds went. Found out when they went to move the funds from the camp account, to the campership account. Shenanigans like this have happened before, and it caused bills not to be paid.

15 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Four-Digit Custom Unit Numeral - Green | BSA® (scoutshop.org)

I really like the more subdued tan ones for Scouts BSA. 

Personally I wish it would go back to red for all programs, including Sea Scouts. Save folks some money when crossing over, and cut down on inventory/ supply costs. But  i know they have a lot of inventory, especially Sea Scout.

On 11/12/2022 at 11:30 PM, mrjohns2 said:

 Wry cool,  it none in in compliance with the standards. Make a troop patch for a hat or neckerchief or temporary patch. 

May not be in compliance, but a heckuvalot cheaper and easier than buying veteran bars every 5 years. As for using location instead of CO's name, way things are going it is a safer bet even if not compliant. I know of one unit that has had 3 COs in the past 18 months! 

Well, they already documented a few cases of fraud. Plus there was numerous cases where there are serious questions. Sadly this hurts the real victims. Personally would like to see the fake claims get monetarily penalized with the monies going to victims.

Looking around, these look cool

22 hours ago, curious_scouter said:

Fair question.  I submitted my ASM application in February, my council still has not processed it.  We've been skating by because I'm still considered a "Den Leader" which does make me a registered leader over the age of 21. 

Could be a lot worse. Over a 4 year period my wife submitted 5 applications for ADL or DL, including one that was hand delivered by me with all supporting documentation. She was never registered. We would find out when recharter came that she was not on the charter, and resubmitted everything again.

We found out 3 months into the charter year,when she was a WDL, that she was not registered when we submitted her for the Lifesaving Award. She rescued someone who had a heart attack and collapsed in the lake and was floating away. Thsi was while she was leading her den on a trip at a local park.

Eventually she got registered as an MBC, after I emailed her application. She was registered for a few months, then the national's system dropped all the MBCs in my council, and she said the heck with it.

1 hour ago, Mrjeff said:

I really think it's comical when someone talks about firing a Scouter.  I know of an employee suggested that a District Commissioner be fired....

When I was a DE, my SE wanted me  to "fire" the entire district committee and get new members. Reason being the council could not move forward (read they would not kowtow to council) with the entrenched volunteers. I had been a DE less than 8 months and still learning the community and building relationships when they wanted me to do this. I told him "who would I replace them with since they run the district and our success is their success?"

Sadly I have seen Scouter "fired." They questioned council so much, the SE placed them in the IVF as a result.

Most of the time, the pros make the Scouters' lives so miserable, we quit on our own. I cannot tell you how many district level folks, myself included, have given up doing stuff for the district because of mistreatment. I am focused on my troop, especially since every time I ask for help, council ignores me.

Wish professionals understood this. Sadly I have seen too many pros treat Scouters as employees, and rather poorly at that, and they walk away.

On 11/6/2022 at 12:25 AM, mashmaster said:

Well that is just idiotic since they are different.  As pointed out they have different members but probably a change made by those in "Tan" that don't understand Sea Scouts.

Gott love Mud Scouts.

8 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

Precisely who does set a SE's salary and benefits, if you know. I would truly love to hear some insight into the process-who has influence and especially the forces that control/regulate those salaries.

National has some pay scales for the various types of councils that local council executive boards approve.

49 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Agreed.  I'm writing from the point that I am comfortable now with units that shut down.  

Understood.

Apparently my council is willing to let units shut down as they provide no help when asked. 

Reproduction uniforms are expensive. May I suggest a customized unit number from https://www.sageventure.com/ ?  Here are some examples 

11 hours ago, fred8033 said:

If another troop is doing well, you can be serving your scouts well by getting them into a larger, healthier troop.  It's not an easy or automatic transition, but it's often the best choice.

And sometimes it is not. Three of my Scouts came from the largest, healthiest troop. They are more adult led, and one person described them as "junior military." What they got going for them is the relationship with the pack. It is very strong. I lost one Scout this summer, and that was choice #1 because they are large and healthy. But it was not the right fit. They moved to another troop that is in a similar situation as us now. Prior to 2022, they had a feeder pack. Now they do not. But My Scout had a better fit there, and I hope they last.

11 hours ago, fred8033 said:

We (adults) can get so caught up on if we are doing it right that we get distracted from whether the scouts find the troop fun and meaningful place to be.  That means program.  ... Yes we want scout-led, effective PLCs, teaching leadership, etc, but program drives the health of the unit.

I think that is what has kept our troop alive. We have an active outdoor program, but our meetings are BORING. New PL is taking charge though.

On 11/4/2022 at 5:13 PM, scoutldr said:

Is not the cost of the patch part of the registration fee for the event?

On 11/5/2022 at 10:46 AM, SiouxRanger said:

I know of many events where patches to cover budgeted attendance were not ordered, with attendance reaching twice budgeted attendance.

Sorry for the delay in response, Just got back.

Yes , patches were budgeted and considered part of the fee. However Council has a habit of not ordering things, or ignoring quantities requested. And we do tend to order extra event patches because we A) use them as thank you gifts for sponsors and non-Scouting event staff,  B) just in case we have more folks attend than planned, and C) the local OA chapter buys the excess at cost, and sells them to raise funds for camp and camperships.

Best example is when I ordered a ton of supplies via my DE, when I had one. Long story short, only thing  the DE ordered was 1/2 the number of patches requested, Only Scouts who paid on time, and 5 non-Scouting adults who sponsored and/or worked. Late payment folks (which would have been covered if the request was filled fully), and no Scouters got patches. As for supplies, I ran around with my head chopped off getting supplies the days before and of the event, and paying significantly more in the process.

On a different note, supposedly our SE and newest DE made a brief appearance at camp. No idea what the new DE looks like. As for the SE, if I saw him, I did not recognize him. And this weekend's event was a council level family camp out, yet we had no professional support. Last weekend, there was another district's event, yet council declared it an all hands event. So no pros were at our event, including our own DE.

I really think my council is in serious financial trouble. Why you ask? Because after this weekend, no events will have patches.  As for the event this weekend, they are only handing out 1/3 of the patch. Long story short, The patch for the last week and this week's events had 2 segments that were identical, with the  2 additional segments for last week's event and this week's event. Council did not order enough of the 2 primary segments, and may not have enough of the segment for this weekend. And this is not the first time the council has done this. One year they had so many attend, and want their patches, the council had to place a second order, which cost them more money than if they ordered the requested amount. But this year they are adamant on no more patches.

If you cannot afford patches, even when budgeted, I think the council is in serious financial trouble.

23 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I find that the individual counselors do a much better job of guiding Scouts as they fulfill the requirements.

Your average 15-year old teaching a bunch of Scouts at summer camp??? Not so much...  A whole heck of a lot of pencil-whipping going on.

But hey, that's what parents are paying for, right?  Wink, wink, nudge, nudge...

 

Sadly this is 110% correct. And I would go on to add some ADULT SCOUTERS  (emphasis) believe MBs should be handed out like Halloween candy at summer camp. I remember fielding a lot of complaints one year when NO ONE passed my Lifesaving MB class because A) the class was to large (25+ Scouts), B) The disruptive Scouts I had could not be kicked out of the class per the Program Director, and C) because of said size and disruptions, not all of the skills were taught and reviewed.  I think many a SM just handed that MB to their scouts, despite them not earning it.

12 hours ago, yknot said:

GTA makes a point of saying there should be no retesting -- that if a Scoutmaster has cleared a scout for a BOR then in his or her eyes, the youth has proven themselves ready... I think it's odd that the BOR's reaction was punitive toward the scout rather than introspective about themselves. A BOR is essentially confirming rank completion in a scout who has been presented by the scoutmaster. 

page 52 of the Guide to Advancement states:  "[BOR's] purpose is to determine the quality of the Scout’s experience and decide whether the requirements for the rank have been fulfilled. If so, the board not only approves the Scout’s advancement but also provides encouragement to continue the quest for the next rank. (emphasis added)"

Later on Page 52 it states that it is possible to fail a BOR. While a BOR must be granted whenever the Scout requests it,  "In a case where there is concern that the requirements for a rank as written have not been fulfilled, it is appropriate to advise the Scout that he or she might not pass the board and to make suggestions about what might be done to improve the chances for success."  Page 54 states 'If a board does not approve, the candidate must be so informed and told what can be done to improve.  If it is thought that a Scout, before his or her 18th birthday, can benefit from an opportunity to properly complete the requirements, the board may adjourn and reconvene at a later date. If the candidate agrees to this, then if possible, the same members should reassemble. If the candidate does not agree, then the board must make its decision at that point. In any case, a follow-up letter must be promptly sent to a Scout who is turned down. A copy of the letter should also be sent to the council’s designated appeals coordinator, council advancement chair, and advancement staff advisor. The letter must include actions advised that may lead to advancement, and also an explanation of appeal procedures."

If a Scout is not responsive to questions, how can the BOR confirm the requirements were actually fulfilled, per the GTA cited above? In over 35 years of sitting on BORs, only once was a Scout not able to answer fully the questions asked by the BOR. Even then, that one Eagle apologized profusely for not being able to recall things and mentioned how he suffered a traumatic brain injury (TBI) in a car accident that has affected his memory. Knowing the story of the accident, he was nicknamed the "Miracle Eagle," because his injuries were so bad, he should have died in the accident. he had 2+ years of hospitalization, physical and occupational rehab, and ongoing neuro care due to the TBI.

9 hours ago, jcousino said:

 Let the vol. run and plan the event just be their if needed , helps when you come to me asking for money if i have talked with you at events. 

When I was a DE, we had to go to every district event for that very reason. Heck I remember flying in from Dallas after two weeks of training, washing clothes while packing a backpack, and going to camp to help teach the district ITOLS class the very day I got home. Another DE, on medically endorsed light duties after a surgery, had to commute back and forth from his house to a camporee, about 1:15 drive one way.

3 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Nice sentiment, but when was the last district or council event that a professional was the "Face Of The Event?"

In my experience, never.  (My impression is "Let the volunteers take the heat.")

That IS the way it is. It is always the volunteers fault, XYZ happened.  Everyone has examples of that one.

AND in the rare cases that volunteers are not involved, it is always the DE's fault, never the council's upper management. I saw a professional lose their job over a fundraising dinner that the upper management organized and NEVER told him that he was responsible for until 2 months before the event. No advertising was done prior to him taking over, and the keynote speaker passed away between when it was first planned, and when the pro was given responsibility for it. YET the SE did not tell him about the death, and all the advertisements had the deceased's name as the keynote. It was a disaster, and he lost his job over it.

3 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I know many folks who have turned to making their contributions to the Movement by making gifts in kind, instead of cash, and one person who changed their entire estate plan to the tune of about a million, and another of $750,000.

In my neck of the woods, most gifts in kind were towards the local camp, which is now being sold. Equipment that was donated for the express purpose of helping maintain that camp was taken to the main camp, despite the camp being open for over a year after the equipment was removed. No one was told about this, and it was discovered when folks when to clean up the camp for an event, and the equipment they relied on was gone. They even took some personal equipment that folks left at the camp so they didn't have to bring it back and forth. They got their stuff back only when they threatened to file a police report.

As for donations of any kind, I do not know anyone at the unit level who is contributing to FOS. Many units no longer buy supplies from the local council, instead going to two nearby, and closer, out of council stores.

Quote

Councils do not see the folks whose contributions are changed from Boy Scouts to other charities.  The councils never knew of the potential bequests, and never hear that the BSA has been dropped as a beneficiary.

Immeasurable Phantom Losses.

Understatement. I know two large contributors who have stopped supporting Scouting altogether, and I would not doubt changed their wills. Another donor is only making contributions to a specific event. His goal is to cut registration so that as many Scouts can go to it as possible.

3 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

I would not be surprised at all to see annual YPT come about as a part of the restructuring plan once the bankruptcy if finalized.

We were told effective 2023 that will be the new norm.

@jcousino, Lots of forms has the SE's signature on it. BSA Lifeguard is one example of a form that they sign off on.