Eagle94-A1

Concur with @InquisitiveScouter. I had a large, 6 man Coleman tent. IT was a P.I.T.A.O.  to set up, especially by myself in the rain. Eventually we also went the two tent route, the hoodlums in one tent, the wife and I in another. That tent was used maybe 10 time in a 5 year period.

for the rice of e membership, it is over $600, so worth a membership.  How many in your family?  They also make a 6man version that is similar

ttps://www.rei.com/product/202982/rei-co-op-wonderland-6-tent

One thing to remember, the more poles and longer they are, the more people it will take to set up the X looks like it will take two to three folks to set up. In my expereince, it is usually just Dad setting up and Mom is herding kids.

I cannot sat about other districts, but in my old one, the abuse by he professional staff as mentioned above has drastically lowered the FOS funding.  combined with lack of  unit support and the selling of camps, they are lucky to get any FOS. Back in the day, we were in the $60 to $65K range, and now the goal is $3K.

19 hours ago, ShootingSports said:

What has happen to Volunteer run and Professionally advised? 

The volunteers who have the knowledge, skills, abilities, and previous event budgets ten to know more about the events and what is involved, than the pros. Yet the pros are overruling and micromanaging without one iota of what is needed. I've listed examples on other pages. But one not listed was Cub family camp.  we asked for 10 bows and 120 arrows. Got 3 bows and about 50 arrows, some of which were not usable. Had to go to Walmart and buy extra bows, and all the arrows in stock to run the event. Oh and this event had over 600 people registered.

2 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

I have a hunch that, at least in some areas, it's becoming increasingly difficult to find sufficient volunteer support to sustain programs from start to finish. Hence, the greater reliance on the professional corp.

In my neck of the woods, folks are tired of the abuse by pros, i.e. overruling, ignoring, yelling, screaming, and cursing. Also folks are tired of the mismanagement by the professionals. They sold a camp that supposedly cost more than it brought in. That was because they used stats from the year before covid, they shut it down for 6+ months, and covid year. However if you looked at the historic data, the camp was not only making enough  money to support itself, but also subsidize the other council camps.

As for pros running things, none of them have any Scouting experience in my area. They couldn't organize a PWD if their lives depended on it. If the volunteers do not run it, it does not happen.

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Having returned to Scouting as a Lion Den Leader after a 15-year hiatus, one big difference I've noticed is that the Council runs a lot of multi-district events that used to be ran by the districts themselves.

Part of that is membership is drastically down nationwide. In my area 7 counties were merged together into a new district. 25 years ago one county had more than double the membership than all 7 counties combined have today.

1 hour ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

If the OA were disbanded, Venturing would enjoy new life.

If the part about limiting all programs to 18 and under  in the Churchill Plan is "revisited" and implemented, Sea Scouts, Exploring, and Venturing will die.

Yes there wqs outrage over the move when it was leaked. Yes the National Sea Scout Commodore, the top volunteer for that program was shocked when he read it in the leak. Yes National said that was not going to happen , but they would"revisit" the  issue when if needed.

And when has national ever listened to their volunteers? I can count on one hand when they have. the Tiger and BB Gun policy that was rescinded when it was publicized 3 to 4 months after it went into effect, but no one, INCLUDING NCS trained shooting sports directors who went thru training after the policy went into effect. All hell broke loose on social media.  The other policy reverse was when it came out that folks would not be considered "trained" unless they did the current training as previous training would not considered. To paraphrase one longtime volunteer,  we have folks who have forgotten more about Scouting than the training writers ever learned and the volunteers still know more about Scouting than ythe writers.

2 hours ago, KublaiKen said:

As I mentioned, the campsites closest to us are starting to require two-night reservations. This is a bad idea.

Some places are like that.

I talked to one unit and they said this is how they will be handling it. they will now offer two overnighters:  one Friday/Saturday overnighter with one leader in charge, and a Saturday/Sunday overnighter with a different leader in charge. Families will have their choice of one or two overnighters.

31 minutes ago, ShootingSports said:

 Don't want competition with our own camps

I believe the competition with council camps is the reason.

As for the other objections, I have not encountered them in 10 years of working with a pack. Cub camping is family camping. In the packs I worked with and been in, families and dens worked together. Costs  are not significantly increased, and having things stretched out over two nights is actually more relqxed than stressful. Some of the camp outs my pack went on had a 2+ hour drive one way.

As for NCAP, that is for district and council activities, not unit level. An d folks have asked to see the data, and it is not being shared,

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

Regarding BSA’s track record of surveys with forgone conclusions, a recent conversation with a pro who is active in O/A leads me to believe that we may add this questionnaire to that list.

[sarcasm on] You don't say! [sarcasm off].

Service hour requirement for Life states " While a Star Scout, [emphasis] participate in six hours of service through one or more service projects approved by your Scoutmaster. At least 3 hours of this service must be conservation related."

37 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Again, Native American Heritage Preservation is not in our mission set... and never was.

While never a mission of the OA, it has occurred. I've posted in other threads how local Arrowmen did help preserve Native American Heritage.  Especially in the early days of the OA when it was illegal to practice aspects of Native culture.

Regalia was not mine to give away, even though the chapter left it behind when they moved, And yes I know a dancer who would have loved some of the items they had. The supplies went to the lodge instead. do not know what will happen to it.

Now the photo album that was in storage, I have that. I donated the album and all the photos in it way back when. Good memories of a better time,

58 minutes ago, nolesrule said:

I can't tell you the number of times I've heard the word "cringy" used by scouts in reference to the Native American aspects of the OA.

I have used that term myself lately, for both "Hollywood Indian" ceremonies and  Scout uniformed ceremonies.

But maybe I am spoiled. My lodge growing up had a relationship with the local nation, and had members on our LEC. One of the guys I worked with and did ceremonies with had an uncle on the tribal council. We worked with them to improve our regalia and make it more authentic.

Lately it seems as if folks could care less about truly mastering ceremonies. We practiced and memorized ceremonies back in the day. We worked on both chapter and personal regalia. sadly I have seen ceremonies thrown together with folks who have never rehearsed together before the event. I have seen folks read from scripts at podiums. I have seen Ordeal ceremonies where only 2 people read the script. And I have seen adults ad lib a Call Out not even in uniform.

Really sad thing is that the chapter heavily invested in researching authentic regalia and  spent money to by supplies needed to make the authentic regalia. But 10+ years after purchase, the itemsare still in sealed bags waiting to be made.

3 hours ago, malraux said:

The call out and the ordeal happening together really do make it seem like the oa is primarily about lots of mediocre quality cosplay. Making it through all of that to the service and leadership society can be tough. 

depends upon the lodge and/or chapter. I have seen some extremely hi quality regalia used.

19 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I thought about this. This exact point is the painful point, isn't it? 

I don't think anyone ever thought about whether you could trust the scout leaders when I was a scout. If my parents had concerns, I never picked up on it. But my parents didn't have an abuse scandal to think about.

Sadly my mom did. In the 1970s a major CSA scandal hit my hometown that had national implications. it was the 1970s sex abuse case in New Orleans.  When my family moved to the suburbs, it was one of the reasons why my older brothers did not continue in Scouting. My mom was reluctant to let me join, despite the positive experiences my brothers had while in, but let me join when my uncle and cousin advocated for me to join based up on their experiences.

18 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

We tried to help that with a family campout with 2nd year Webelos and the troop, but I guess that is over.

that is my it needs to be a separate Cub Activity now

Not every Scout comes from Cubs.

2 hours ago, Tron said:

This is a great change. 

First of all why would anyone potentially want someone who is not position trained as a SM/ASM/or other outdoor leader at a campout? 
 

Parent of a potential scout who is still getting to know the adults and doesn;t trust us yet with their child's first camp out?

16 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Based on the survey questions ... I highly doubt no changes are coming.  My rough guess is they are considering 3 paths:

Path A ... Simply give up on NA references & usage ... just move on.

THIS IS WHAT I AM EXPECTING. (EMPHASIS)

16 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Path B ... Engage with NA community to strengthen the bond.  That will likely mean eliminating some NA aspects of the program and possibly bringing in others.

This is currently in place, and has been for a time, but is not working.

16 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Path C ... minimal changes (for example, eliminating council non approved NA programs, but leaving in National programs untouched)

Doubtful.

As someone on FB stated, the decision has been made, and the survey is a figleaf

12 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Most of the east coast has very small or nonexistent reservations.  How would an OA lodge in Pennsylvania have a relationship with a tribe?  Head West and there are many more options.  Florida has some options as well. 

There are a lot of State Recognized tribes, and some do have relationships. I know at one time the Houma of Louisiana had members on Chilantakoba Lodge's executive board.

There is no consensus in the Native community on this topic. Some are anti BSA, others are pro. it is all over the place.0

Correct. Heck we cannot align with ourselves. Look at some of the discussions on Facebook, or even here. BP even had a problem with BSA when he was alive. Too many professionals was one of his problems.

IMHO, because BSA was once the largest, wealthiest NSO, they would do whatever they want. For example, Prior to August 1, 1989, BSA members had to earn the World Crest. Between that fact, and the charter concept, lots of rules in BSA are not elsewhere. For example, alcohol is perfectly acceptable in many NSOs, but not here. And that rule came from one of the largest CO partners at the time, the Mormon Church.

12 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Why is American scouting different?

BSA uses Charter organizations to support the program. They have a say in how the program works. Another reason is the heavy influence of the Young Men's Christian Association, aka YMCA, The Y, in the early years.

15 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

You forgot...  they want their cut.  

A few of the reasons why folks in my neck of the woods do not use them are 1) Council has a habit of losing paperwork, even hand-delivered paperwork, 2, they never received word if the fundraiser was approved or not, and 3) one SE did indeed demand 10%-15% of the profits for it to be approved. This is the same SE who yelled and cursed out district level volunteers, causing them to quit. As you can imagine, that did not go over well.

Wish I could help more.