Eagle94-A1

6 hours ago, skeptic said:

This old guy feels as if it does matter and we should stop accepting these types of things and putting some honesty back into our units and setting a better example.  Probably, and sadly, you are likely to be more correct than I am, and we seem to have lost sight of much of the best Character examples we have tried to exemplify over time.  But, maybe not??

At least in my area, parents are pressuring for Eagle. Units that do try and focus on adventure, fun, personal growth, etc instead of advancement do not get new Scouts as parents look elsewhere. Even my new troop is focusing on advancement.

5 hours ago, DuctTape said:

It does matter, but the train left the station long ago.

Yes it has.

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

It does.  And there is "chaos" and cheating all around.  Be responsible for what you do.  I have been asked many times to sign off something a Scout has not earned, or that I have not witnessed.  I politely refuse.

And be told by the rules lawyers you are "gate keeping," "adding to requirements," etc.

@InquisitiveScouter sadly the leadership at the top is encouraging this, and they do not care what the old boots on the ground want who want to maintain standards want. Heck there is now a majority of volunteers support for them and their decline of standards.

Sadly I do not think it matters. The focus has been on MBs and Eagle, no one focuses on fun, adventure, and personal growth. Besides,  a lot of places are giving MBs away.

4 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

QUESTION ... What is the change?  I see physical MB pamphlets can still be purchased.  Is it only to emphasize online MB first and then paper second?  Or is national stopping the distribution to scout shops and people need to go online to purchase?  I'm just curious.

More than likely, National is getting rid of existing physical inventory. The requirements may or may not be current, but that has been an issue since I was a Scout.

What I describe has been going on in my area for over 25 years. This is nothing new here. But it definitely shocked me when I first got here.

13 hours ago, Tron said:

Cub scouts meet roughly weekly 2-3 times a month in dens (which can be but might not always be divided by age due to leader or program limitations); once a month cub scouts meet as a pack where all dens participate together. This will get ripped apart by any competent defense/litigation attorney. 

Depends. In my neck of the woods, the entire pack meets every week. They will do a joint opening, then split into dens. Sometimes den meetings are done as a pack instead of individual dens.

22 minutes ago, yknot said:

I think that slide is here somewhere in one of the bankruptcy threads. I know I've seen it, and I'm pretty sure it was here. 

It is. I remember seeing it. 2/3s of the councils gone if memory serves.

2 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

I guess that all depends on where you are located.

The goal here is for each of our districts to add at least one new unit each quarter, with an emphasis on every current charter having both a pack and troop.

I wish.  My troop folded in December after years of begging council for help.  They said they needed to start new units instead of helping existing one. They didn't like the fact that I told them  that National predicted membership and units would decline for a few years after the lawsuit before stabilizing, and that it is easier to keep a  stable unit going than start a new on. 

And at my new troop's meeting tonite, we had visitors from the only other existing troop in town. They are joining us on a camp out this weekend.

2 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

If units, districts, and councils continue to just look at declining numbers and not look at why they are declining and work to mitigate those reasons, the decline will continue.

 Oh we know what is causing the problem, we are not recruiting. And Council is not helping us in this matter.

One CST's stats. Look like those councils with metro areas are doing well. Rural areas not so much.

If memory serves, there is a 5 year period that professionals are ineligible after leaving the profession. Do not know if any restriction on non professional staff, ie. office staff, rangers, etc.

I do know of one SB recipient who was nominated before being employed by the council, but by the time of the awards ceremony, they were the camp ranger.

On 2/28/2026 at 5:17 PM, Tron said:

Could it be that the number of eagle scouts has stayed consistent because the number of adults is consistent and thus the support inside the program that is needed to get a scout to eagle is still in place regardless of total number of scouts? 

Or it could be that standards for advancement have been lowered? Once upon a time, the standard was "master the skills" and "the badge represents what a Scout CAN DO (sic) not what he has done."  Those come from old handbooks and advancement guides. Now the standard is "A badge recognizes what a Scout has done toward
achieving the primary goal of personal growth. "

Sadly I have been to a camp, where they gave away MBs. Best example were the Scouts given Canoeing MB, but could not paddle in a straight line on a troop  trip to save their life. I had a Scout's family member tell me they bought the MBs by going to that camp. Or how about  all the MBUs popping up where you sit in class and get a MB? Sadly my own kids, after they aged out, told me some of the stuff they didn't do for MBs they "earned" from MBUs.

And don't forget the online MBUs. What FL council awarded over 18000 MBs during COVID from online MBUs?

Yes, any thing with a counterweight is banned. Catapults are under heavy restrictions as it was classified as a shooting sport, and has to follow those regs. And those regs have become event tighter.  Page 14 states it requires a NRA Range Safety Officer to e present

Page 77 - 79 gives details.

Yeah, the lawsuit caused a lot of Scouting endowments to be raided. 

Does anyone have the stats on OA membership over the past few years? The section below concerns me. Has the OA fallen so much, that temporary units can now have elections? depending upon when the election is held, folks may not know anyone to judge them worthy or not.

On 2/13/2026 at 3:23 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

We're expanding election opportunities beyond traditional units to include council-recognized Scouting America groups like staff for summer camp and NYLT, council high adventure contingents, and jamboree troops.

EDITED. Found OA annual reports here  https://oa-scouting.org/resources/publications/impact-report

In the 2014 report, we had 171,211 Arrowmen registered. In the 2024 annual report, we had 98,473 registered Arrowmen. That is a 43% drop in 10 years!

On 2/11/2026 at 6:00 PM, Tron said:

 I know that Jan 1st a bunch of changes went into affect and it's blowing up what was already a barely hanging on for relevance program that OA became. 

Do not remind me of the changes.. Yes, some lodges were doing things wrong. Other lodges were doing it properly. I don't think if the local Native nation has both youth and elders involved with the OA, doing ceremonies, dancing, singing, etc is a problem. Heck one lodge had a tribal councilman as a member, and his cousin was a ceremonialist. Another lodge had a powwow drum started at an OA event.

On 2/11/2026 at 3:47 PM, skeptic said:

 It pretty much lost any real credibility, in my view, when it stopped putting limits on how many could be elected in a unit, and ceremonies were done with youth reading from a piece of paper and often with little or no obvious prep.  

...  Our local lodge now is challenged to even find a place to do stuff, as they sold all our camps.  The SE told me they do a good job helping around the office; hmmmmm.  

I was active when the change was made. I and a few others said the OA will slowly die as a result of letting everyone in. I gave them 20-25 years. I think the 100th Anniversary gave it a little more life, and of course the patch collectors.

OK, I admit, I have read names off of scrolls and the back of shield for AOL and Call Outs. Especially if the pack didn't have anything with their names on it.

But completely agree with reading  from paper for the main ceremonies. I would rather the "contemplative pause" or even ad libbing the lines, especially if the ceremonialist knew the meaning and purpose of the lines.

On 2/11/2026 at 6:44 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

3.  Not sure what you mean here, "The only adult, 21+,  was voted on and not nominated."  Adults are nominated by the Troop committee...  was this your process??

Instead of using an adult nomination form, they put the SM on the ballot with the youth, and had the Youth vote on him.

I think OA, and national by extension, is getting desperate for money. Between this and "interesting" elections, to increase membership, I have my wories.

I have been inactive for quite some time. Once the kids became Cubs, I had to pick and choose what to focus on, and OA went out the window. My chapter essentially folded circa 2017, as that was the last time elections were held. Tried to get  them to come, no response.

Well the SM got a neighboring chapter to come in for an election. Yep our chapter is dead, and the hope is the chapter can get restarted. But here is the funny thing.

1. The chapter advisor ran the entire election process. Youth basically said their names and whether they were Brotherhood or Vigil.

2. As long as you were First Class, the camping no longer mattered.

3. The only adult, 21+,  was voted on and not nominated.

4. Everyone seemed to get elected, including folks who had just joined the troop, and no one really knows them. While I am glad they got elected, This shocked me.

Is this now the norm, or a freak anomaly?

17 hours ago, Tron said:

I'll jump on the pity party. 64% of my town lives at or below the poverty line.  $237 is not a lot of money. 

Glad you got a good job, cause i sure don't.

On 2/6/2026 at 9:24 PM, Tron said:

$237 isn't a lot of money in the grand scheme of things but what are the scouts getting back for that? The fee's are not bad if the scouts are getting value back; I just don't see the value back when visiting these high fee councils.  

I do not know where you live, but in my neck of the woods $237 IS a lot of money for folks, especially with multiple kids. I am in a rural area with high poverty rate.

As for value, (sarcasm on) what's a professional? Are those the paid folks who are supposed to help units with recruiting? I have heard of these mythical creatures, and thought they were extinct since it has been so long since I have seen one.(sarcasm off)

If I wasn't trying to laugh, I would be crying.

16 hours ago, Tron said:

Whatever happens going forward membership cannot overlap with recharter; membership with national and council "service fees" have to be clearly defined so as to prevent bad units from scalping parents. 

Oh, but council can add weird fees.  A friend of mine's council has a $77 Council fee added to the individual, and a $75/Scout fee added to the unit recharter. $85+77+75 = $237 per Scout per year in that council.

Don't forget awards and activity supplies have skyrocketed too.

On 2/3/2026 at 10:32 AM, MikeS72 said:

While we have not seen specifics on how this may be implemented, we have been told that the 'rolling registrations' will be going away and we will be going back to everyone expiring/renewing at the same time.

WOW, who could have predicted rolling registration would be a "Charley Foxtrot?"  🤔

Another reason on adult attitudes was WHEN (emphasis) they were in Scouting. I know a former Scouter who was an Eagle in the 1972-1979 "Improved Scouting Program" era. That was when it was possible to be an Eagle without a single night of camping. He could not understand why camping was important.

As much as I like the idea, the cow is out the barn regarding advancement.

I remember watching some national online meeting during COVID, I think it was 2021 National Meeting, where National was praising a FL council for having online MBUs and awarding over 20,000 MBs during the pandemic.

As for adults bringing back integrity, you already have adults trying to cut corners on training. I had adults trying to get me to sign off on their training, but would not staff a class, or when it was allowed, test out of the class.

Sorry if I am pessimistic. 

I know when we did how a troop meeting is done with the old SM Fundamentals (SMF) Training, we were told we were to act like Scouts, and work as patrols during our meeting. Maybe because of my age at the time, but I didn't have problems. And I didn't notice any of my patrol mates having problems either.

If memory serves, the model PLC used the actual SMF troop PLs with the rest of us watching. But I may be getting confused with BA22 and JLTC.

But I agree 100%, training needs to focus more on interaction with Scouts through mentoring and counseling. That was a skill set, counseling PLs while being SPL or JASM, with both BA 22 and JLTC, was very applicable as an adult.

3 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

.My son's coach this year is actually an Eagle Scout. He speaks fondly of his time in Scouting but hasn't enrolled his own son in Cubs. I guess that begs the question - why isn't Scouting able to sustain the program with former Scouts returning as adult volunteers?

Today's Scouting is not the same program as it use to be.

The Cub Scout Program was completely revamped in 2015, with a revision of those requirements  in December 2016 . My then Webelos 2 said they "watered down requirements" because they made things easier to earn. Thankfully the pack decided to ignore the 2016 changes until June 2017 because the "immediate" changes were major enough to cause advancement delays, as well as force the pack to change their programming.  And they have changed the program a few more times since 2017, with the latest being Webelos cannot begin transitioning to Scouts as that happens in 5th grade now.

As for Scouts, the emphasis is on advancement, not fun, adventure, and growth.

10 hours ago, Tron said:

The all merit badge issue is in my opinion a matter of money. The scouts that I have personally seen get them all basically bought their way through it by having the cash to go-go-go. I

I have seen a few, but met only 1 who actually retained the knowledge. Grant you he earned his last MB a few days before turning 18.

 

don't believe a scout should have to master a skill to get a merit badge; however, at the same time I don't believe some of these scouts have retained any knowledge of the harder merit badges which defeats a huge part of the purpose of the merit badge process. 

That is the difference in standards today. Prior to the 2000s, the standard was "Master the skills," and "the badge represents what a Scout CAN DO (sic), not what he has done." Today the focus is on doing the requirements for "personal growth."

The merit badge mills (MBU, etc ... )are less of a concern for me. They're such a mixed bag. Some scouts are coming in with pre-requisites and meeting the base standard, some are exceeding the standard, some are just being tossed a merit badge (which plainly sucks and hurts the scouts and program). I think the difficulty here is that there is a base standard, a minimum; we often get lost in the haze of debate over a scout who over achieves and people believing that should re-baseline the merit badge requirements. Merit badges are not on a bell curve, you do the standard you get the badge. I sat in at a MBU last year and I had a handful of parents and scouts lose their mind on me because they came in with literal reams of pre-work and while great, demonstrating above average achievement, it was a lot of work that was not required. I had to tell a scout and his parents that the standard was X and they did X+10. I had to tell them that the other scouts who just did exactly the requirement for the pre-requisites would get the exact same merit badge. They lost their minds, to them because little billy did more, so should everyone else. 

MBUs are becoming the norm, not the exception, and that is the very concerning for me.  I am seeing more and more folks just get MBs for sitting in a class. And my questions regarding your experience: 1. Why were parents involved, and 2. do you think the kids actually did the extra work, or their parents threw that in?

The requirements to become a MBC are horrible in every way. The standards are arbitrary and subjective. There are very few if any audits of skill going on. There are fiefdoms for certain merit badges. My personal hate is being told I was not qualified to be an MBC for a merit badge and I came back with "I have over 40 years experience and certified training in this, wtf do you mean I am not qualified to be an MBC for this?". When national rolled out the Citizenship in Society MB and all the hoops you had to jump through to be an MBC for that, where the heck are those hoops for any other MB? How can people get signed off to be an MBC without doing the 15min free online training? Too wrap this up I just had to talk a troop leader off the ledge who was going to lose his $%^& on our councils "MB Dean" when the MB Dean told the troop leader that he wasn't qualified to MBC Citizenship in the Nation; the troop leader is teacher who literally teaches a course called "Citizenship in America" at a local high school. The whole process is broken. 

Don't get me started on MBCs and the process.  Either my council dropped, or National IT dropped, every single MBC in my council. To say it was a Charlie Foctrot would be an understatement. Folks who had been MBCs for ages were no longer qualified becuase National mandated some type of certification to teach. I'm sorry but you don't need American Canoe Associate or BSA accreditation to teach Canoeing MB if you got over 40 years experience, 2 Fifty Milers by canoe, etc etc.

But as you noted there is no auditing process. Because of all the problems with BSA's IT systems, I know many troops ignore scoutbook, and have their own list of MBCs. After the last time the MBs I teach were dropped, I said heck with it. Only time it matters is if I teach at a district/council event. They double check., 

10 hours ago, Tron said:

LFL is not considered part of the unit based numbers, and unit based numbers are where national counts membership. LFL is like a bonus thing or something (I don't quite get it). 

Learning for Life is not a bonus. LFL is a subsidiary that most councils, at least the ones I have been in and work for, don't want to have, because once established, they need that program to grow as well. I got into major trouble for tryng to convert "In School Scouting" units to LFL groups.

10 hours ago, Tron said:

There are a bunch of lapses because parents are trying to cheat the system for some reason. The whole lapsed period versus expired thing is a nightmare and in this digital age national should just get rid of both and just terminate membership when they expire. 

I don't think they are trying to cheat the system. I think they are tyring to synchronize their Scout's membership renewal with the unit's recharter.