Eagle94-A1

Sadly they may never be able to get back. I know someone who was falsely accused, and was never reinstated after the investigation supported her story.

4 minutes ago, OaklandAndy said:

I didn't think I would have to say it but when the actions and decisions made by the organization are just plain wrong, they obviously you have to speak up.

So you do agree that those who believe that the current membership policies are wrong do have the right to speak up. Then why are you upset when they do so?

6 minutes ago, OaklandAndy said:

 It's not "eyes of the beholder" when the majority agrees.

Can you show me the results of the membership (emphasis) survey that had the majority support current membership policies, because I have been looking for years.  All I can find is the non-member results,  which did not include any BSA identifiable markers. Also why would BSA exclude a major segment of their membership from the polls? If I can find the screen capture of the poll, if you were in the Western Region, and chartered to an LDS Unit, you were not suppose to do the survey?

24 minutes ago, OaklandAndy said:

The way I see it, when you register (or re-register) as an adult leader, you are agreeing to uphold the decisions and responsibilities mandated by the organization, regardless of your personal feelings. If you can't do that, then you leave the organization (like so many already have) and carry on with your life. No different from any other private membership organization. 

Please remember, the folks who pushed for the membership changes internally by your logic should have removed themselves, or been removed by BSA long before the membership changes happened.

2 hours ago, yknot said:

That might have made sense the first year as people adjusted, but it has been six years and girls are nearly fully integrated into scouting. 

Change does takes time, sometimes decades. Especially those who have put in decades of blood, sweat, tears, time and treasure to the organizations. Trust me, I have seen what happens when they leave: no one fills the void.

Just  remember Venturing celebrated their 25th year last year, and people still call them venture scouts and venture crews, not Venturers and Venturing Crews.

8 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Scouting would not exist in some communities today were it not for some of these "old school" scout leaders. Change takes time and I'm not sure you can get there by extinguishing dissent.

One of the many reasons why my district and council are in trouble  "old school Scouters" that left when membership changes occurred, and there was  no one with the knowledge, skills, abilities, time, and treasure to take their place. They leaving left giants gaps that years later still have not been filled.  Someone with 10, 20, 40, 60+ years experience in the program is extremely hard to replace.

You got others who still disagree with the membership changes, and will tell you why they disagree with them. They remain involved for "their boys," and are slowly coming around.

I think I will keep my old uniform. Pants, hat, socks, and basic insignia ( world crest, ring, and WRONG (emphasis) council patch is $120. Can't get a shirt on the uniform builder.

3 hours ago, Roadkill Patrol said:

Camp commissioners could not get them to change either and the only fix was to bring in a portable foot-pump handwashing station for us to use, or travel 3 campsites away to use the nearest empty campsite facility.  We had twice the number of people that had to use the facilities.

If the camp commissioners and other staff are not doing their job, go to another camp.

Only time I've seen a US flag replaced with another country's flag is Puerto Rico. BSA even had literature with pictures of Scouts wearing PR flags instead of US flags.

2 hours ago, DannyG said:

Is this what you mean?

Yep.

And it has been clarified.  As regards the clarification...

@DannyG. May want to check out the updated G2SS. They changed how Webelos camp, including with troop.

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

There is theory and reality in the OP question.

Question for the former pros here....Did you receive any Customer Service training in your job?   and  Did you receive any "how to "manage" a volunteer workforce" training?

Seems like obvious necessary training for a DE to me since your workforce can make or break you.   If the DE has a "I'm in charge" attitude then his volunteers will say "Yes you are", and you will fail quickly.   Servant Leadership is essential.

JMHO.

 

Back in the day, yes.  We were constantly told "you need to multiply ourselves" in regards to volunteer recruitment and customer service. This was at national training.

On the local level, the focus of in-house training was to recruit "yes men" on the district committee so they can do what you tell them.

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

When I first met our new SE, I asked him, "What is your biggest headache?"

He answered, "When volunteers put on a uniform and think they know more than professionals.."

...And most of them DO know more than any of our professionals.

Sadly this is truth. I know people who have been asked to take down national announcements from district webpages.  When I had a DE, I told him stuff before the SE did a lot.

CLARIFICATION ON OP, when I said council was not going to make enough money, they want a "surplus" budgeted to go to council in addition to the "emergency fund" which if not used goes to council.

18 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

I do honestly wonder what the DE for our district does for 40 hours per week.  We really have no idea as we never see him and no value is brought by him.  We had one question about the new recharter process and concerns with UMC, got a really snotty response, so said see ya.

Once upon a time I knew exactly what a DE did, because I was one. And depending upon time of year, we did a lot more than 40 hours, not including on-call time.  One of my buddies did the calculations, if we were not exempt, we would be making less than the minimum wage of the time. 

However, I am clueless today. All I can think is driving places as the district sizes in my neck of the woods increased dramatically.  My district went from 2 counties, to 7 counties overnite.

Back in the day, the focus was MONEY, MEMBERSHIP MANPOWER, and the order of importance depended upon the SE, and to a lesser degree time of year. Today it seems money.

fundraising was suppose to support the program to keep costs down for the Scouts. Let's face it, camps need year round maintenance, not just in the summer. Folks need certifications to conduct events. Units need recruiting supplies. And yes part of the money paid for the pros, but we were doing things that would be difficult for volunteers to do, i.e. getting into the schools in the day to recruit,  making a 3 hour round trip to drop off supplies for a district event, getting to a district event before gates open to things set up, etc.

However I am seeing camps fall apart and getting sold, volunteers are having to pay to get certified to hold events, units have to make or buy their own recruiting materials, pro's won't  talk to the school system to get into the school, And you do not see pros district events, let alone setting up for it. As for getting supplies, they do not get you enough, requiring  you to buy extra locally (or if patches make a second order costing more money than if they got the original amount), do not get the supplies you requested (causing to to purchase locally at a high cost), or scheduling a conflicting event at the same location (creating chaos because of lack of communication with event organizers, and office staff who also know nothing about the event they put on the calendar).

Membership was also big. Getting into schools, doing the talks, helping organize public events that would attract folks, etc. Heck one of my friends turned his vehicle into a Mobil recruiting  advertisement complete with a filing system in the hatch with not only applications, but other supplies. I cannot remember the last time a SE got into a school to do recruiting.

Manpower, or recruiting adult volunteers not only for units, but the district, was important. I usually combined recruiting unit adults with recruiting Scouts. Recruiting adults for events was more challenging as I had to meet with them on their schedule. I also had to be prepared to answer questions, give advice, etc. And I also had to help at events they were in charge of. 

Today, as I mentioned above, the professionals seem to cause more problems than help. I and other have asked for help with events, with at best little to no help, at worst being ignored, yelled, or cursed out. As I mentioned, at best a lot of good volunteers no longer want to help run district events and focus on their units instead. Worse they quit altogether. Worst, especially those in the business community and are FOS contributors, they quit giving to FOS, and talk to their buddies about the abuse they got who also quit giving. When I calculate what FOS then is worth today, and figure out how much our goals are today, it is frightening. The goal for my area today is 8.8% of what I was raising. membership dropping is part of it. But the bulk of that is a result of business no longer giving. Word does indeed get around.

2 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

Councils are intended to support Units.  A unit exists to work with a Chartered Organization to operate unit programming for young people.  A council exists to grow, improve and preserve Scouting at the unit level through its professional and volunteer staff.  It also exists to provide program opportunities that a unit cannot conduct by itself (like summer camp and certain activities).  Councils exist to protect the overall organization and members (especially youth) by assuring adherence to policies on things like advancement, life safety and YPT.  Essentially, councils exist to serve units, but units are responsible to be active partners in that process.  Units and their volunteers do not serve or “work for” the councils.

So if a council is not doing there part and supporting units, are units still responsible for supporting the council?

2 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

The single best thing a council does is to work to support units to operate in a quality manner, and it does this via its district executives and volunteer district committees and commissioners. 

What happens if they alienate their district volunteers, causing them to focus on their units, or quit altogether? It has gotten to the point where units are looking for ways to switch to another council.  

2 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

Putting on events like camporees is really a secondary function of districts and the quality of these activities is always dependent on the quality of the volunteers involved.  District camporees are normally cancelled only when the organizers have done such a poor job that the event is destined to be a fiasco for program and financial reasons – and there is no advantage in allowing a fiasco

The factors you raise indicate there are probably programming, scheduling, planning and financial mistakes being made.

The official reason for canceling there is lack of MBCs  All MBCs, were dropped by my council, even if registered in a unit. Irony of that reason is Council in a newsletter stated they were aware of the problem, and that  MBCs with units are still MBCs while the council is trying to fix the records. And last time I talked to event organizers, only 2 MB classes still needed MBCs, and I could teach one of them in addition to the one I volunteered for. And the event has gone on for over 30 years, so it is not a quality issue.

2 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

 Consider volunteering to help to help organize your next district camporee to assure a steady organizing and execution process.  Finally, accept that these events are often less-than-perfect.

I was actually suppose to staff this event. And I have helped run events in the past. At least for the past 10+ years, when council intervenes, there are major problems.  I have had events where supplies I requested months in advance were not ordered, and had to be purchases locally, at a much higher price, the day before and of the event. I have had patch orders which used previous event stats to calculate, downsized to the point where enough patches were not ordered, and a second order needed to be made due to complaints. That cost them more money than the original order would have AND alienated volunteers. Worse, I have seen a camporee chief get yelled and cursed out at by a pro. A lot of folks are tired of the abuse.

11 hours ago, ShootingSports said:

 I try to tell myself, all scouting happens only at the unit level (and all units are run by volunteers)

That is why many volunteers in my area are no longer volunteering on district and council levels.

1 hour ago, ShootingSports said:

Organization run by volunteers or professionals? .........Failure at "council" is failure of volunteers........ just my 2 cents. 

I was focusing on units, not district and council committees. Shall we add this to the topic,  or start a new thread? Serious question.

Not in a good mood. I found out that my council cancelled a district event for the second time, with 8 days notice. Apparently they were not going to make enough money on the event, so they cancelled it, leaving units and volunteers who planned to attend and staff the event high and dry. As I mentioned, this is the second time they cancelled an event on short noticed. The first event was cancelled because it was "competing" with another, similar event. Yet the first event was an annual event for over 30 years, and the "competing" event only started before COVID, and didn't happen again until this year. The new event could not handle the extra participants from the first event when they tried to do that event instead.As for summer camp, there are so many issues, most units go out of council. Folks for years have given feedback to the powers that be for years, and it has fallen on deaf ears. So the council is not providing the programming opportunities they promised, which hurts units. I've already mentioned the recruiting challenges in other posts that council will not help units with.

But here is the kicker, the council complains when units do not want to do FOS presentations. They complain when troops do not want to go to the council's summer camp. And they are now complaining folks do not want to do their weekend activities.

So the question is, Do units support the council, or council supports the units?

13 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Try this... see NNJC entry

https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=Cub Scout Adventures and Requirements

or here, I converted it to a pdf for you...

CS Adv & Req.pdf 735.63 kB · 3 downloads

THANK YOU!

29 minutes ago, DannyG said:

We have several college-aged scouts registered as Unit College Scouter Reserve instead of ASM. Less commitment. It keeps them on the charter so they can attend 1 or 2 events per year they are available. But they spend most of their time at college.

Yes, but they have to give up their under 18 friends in Scouting per GTSS YP rules, which many refuse to do in this area.

26 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

I found it here: https://www.facebook.com/download/420104303799034/NEW Cub Scout Adventures and Requirements.xlsx?av=1265951650&eav=AfaVFqGFLPp1FlqxAiHQ-ZJe6oZ07HLbNXHvHpRLg9x7RxYlOvjCXPBtE74HIFKhcaw&paipv=0&hash=Acrb32VljgE1dz4_rP4&__cft__[0]=AZX52xvwZPEfzRoPqxqO_pOeUXRORQQEombH2Fo3b_QbKrlk8KHnL-ZNU0v_M58nJHwgNShDuOY0SfRjDTR2TclnksN7J0OhV4pGQejDBnFARXTHR6Th7XtB4whjBHecuRQ49kx8qIUTzCSgeSif3YMLksx9xjUNGbqsp7U_s44HFQ&__tn__=H-R

Apparently I don't have permission

3 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Time for a REI x BSA collab? 😄

REI will not partner with BSA because of our shooting sports program. There are also other differences, but the shooting sports is a big one. None of their partners have anything to do with shooting sports. Why you no longer see ALPS Mountaineering sold by REI. 

As a former National Supply employee, I can tell you first hand that most folks working for them have little to no experience in the program. I was part of a pilot program because I had the experience they needed.  EVERY. SINGLE. DECISION. WAS. QUESTIONED. BY . THE. BOSS! (Major emphasis). We had merchandise we did not need, and not enough merchandise that was needed. I routinely told them stuff that was coming down the line would be a waste of time and money, and was right.

Sadly the same thing happens today. I have heard a lot of complaints about the women's uniforms not fitting. All yo need to do is look at the designer, and her bio with no outdoor experience. Marketing folks who have no idea about the product. And I can go on.

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

Nationally we dropped from 923,399 in January 2023 to 893,117 in January 2024, a -3.28 % loss.

I bet the loss is greater than that. I just checked my Charter last night, and one of my Scouts who aged out last year is still listed, despite us dropping him and not paying for him. He has already stated he will not stay on as an ASM because he refuses to give up his friends, and he is in college.

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

Were all of the rides, slides, walls, attractions ever fully opened?  Even in the big pre-covid ones in 2013 and 2017 weren't some areas not fully opened due to staffing challenges?

Wasn't that because they placed restrictions on who could work, and then later rescinded those restriction, to late for many prior Staffers who were rejected to make arrangements to staff?

Forgot to add, these are some of the reasons that unit serving folks are not happy with councils, and see no reason to support them.

Also when a council asks for 20%-50% of a unit fundraiser in order to approve it, and they are doing nothing to help you, folks get resentful.

1 hour ago, SNEScouter said:

You seem to think that financial support of the council does not support "Scouting."  That's concerning.

BSA has lots of rules and guidelines about how units are to finance their operations, etc., and who can solicit funds from outside sources.  (Spoiler - the unit cannot solicit).  They're not perfect but they're the rules and simply circumventing them or flouting them isn't the answer IMHO.

With respect, some councils do an excellent job supporting Scouting, and others do not.

When folks ask for help from the council with recruiting new Scouts, and the council gives none, that is not supporting Scouting.

When folks provide a budget, list of supplies, vendors, and costs with enough time to get them, only for council to ignore everything, causing the event organizing to run around last minute to get supplies locally for a higher price, and then blames them for going overbudget, that is not supporting Scouting.

When folks secure a donor for an event, covers the cost of the event so prices can drop the price allowing as many Scouts to attend as possible, and they still want the original budgeted price so they can make more money,  that is not supporting Scouting.

When a group of volunteers who are experts in architecture and construction come to you with plans to build a needed facility comes to the council with building plans up to code specification, environmental studies, etc and a list of vendors to build it AND folks pledged to pay for the building, And council you dismiss it out of hand, that is not supporting. Scouting.

You can guess what type of council mine has been