Eagle94-A1

Introduction of Candidates?  What Candidate?  This isn't the Order of the Arrow - its a Court of Honor to formally present to an Eagle Scout the awards he's already earned - he isn't a candidate - he's an Eagle Scout.

Some troop are old school. While you may have passed your BOR, until you received your rank at the COH, you were considers a "candidate." And not just for Eagle, but for all ranks. Awards were only handed out at COHs.

I was reading through old thread (so I apologive for diggin this up), but official BSA policy states that 3 is the maximum number. I wear Spanish and French, though I admit I wish I could add an Elvish patch, lol.

At the moment, wife could, stress could, wear French and Greek strips with her vintage Den mother uniform. Won't do it because she hates tan on the blue dress. She has French on her Venturing uniform. She didn't want me to order Greek as she didn't like how the tan strip looked on the green uniform when I got it for her.

Now if they had a Quenya strip, I bet she would go for it in a heartbeat!

It's been around a while. I've used a version for when we give out neckers at the end of the year, when the boys are promoted to the next level. I'll need to look it up.

THIS. IS. A . MAJOR. PROBLEM!

This new rule not only affects BSA, but many non-profits around the nations. In fact almost all of the non-profits were against this law. Yes most DEs earn under $35,000.

But even if the salary was raised to $47,500, there will still remain a variety of reasons for DEs to quit. Some of the things I encountered as a DE were :

18+ hour days

being on call 24/7 (yes, I had to deal with issues at 1AM and 3AM)

unrealistic goals in membership, manpower, and money

heavy pressure to meet those goals

long hours on the road

Extreme stress on the family

That last one is a biggie. I've seen more folks leave the profession, including me, because of the stress on the family. My wife, who dated and was engaged to me while I was a DE, gave me an ultimatum after 1.5 months of marriage: Her or the job.

Unfortunately they are not authorized to wear the Eagle knot.

This is what the Guide to Awards and Insignia says:

are worn above the left breast pocket

I'd say August 1985 was when Tigers became 1st Graders. Guide on BSA's website is a little off (surprise, surprise) as BSA since when I joined always changes things August 1 of a year with the exception of the new Cub Scout program (changed to coincide with when the Scouts move to the next level) and the new Scout requirements ( calendar year).

2001 was when Tigers wore the full blue uniform for the first time. That's a year I will never forget. It was round up season when the Twin Towers were hit.

Tiger tracks were around since the beginning. First it was solid colored tiger paws, then the cutout paws (which you needed to follow EXACTLY or the paw, and shirt, were totally messed up. Eventually BSA switched to the belt fob and called the beads "Tiger tracks" and the original Tiger Cub badges were stick ons for the belt fob. Then they moved to the pocket and Tiger Cub became a CS rank.

Actually Tigers came about in August 1981. I remember because I had to wait until 3rd grade to be a Cub Scout, and they introduced this Tiger thing for 2nd graders just as I was finally old enough to be a Cub Scout. Ticked me off to no end. Pre-1989 Tigers was 1 year, then Cubs 3 years for a total of 4. Then  Cub Scouts expanded into a 3.5 year Program and Tigers was a separate 1 year program. 1995 or 1996 was when Tigers were fully incorporated into Cub Scouts and it became a 4.5 year program.

I admit, I'm skeptical of Lions. I readily admit after 5 years (3 as a TCDL, 2 as a Wolf DL, 1 as a Bear DL) I was burnt out.

Did your scout store his recordings online?

No, you need to go to the NC Archives and Records to hear them and read the transcripts.

I understand Beavah and desertrat77's views, and agree with them to a degree. I've heard of over the top ECOHs, but have been fortunate in that the bulk are "traditional" in that they use the troop's standard ceremony.

But I admit I like having a separate ECOH. One reason is that folks from out of town and others can plan to attend. I know I invited my uncle and cousin to my ECOH, and was extremely surprised that my old SPL was able to get leave to attend my ECOH. I sent him an invite just pro forma as I didn't believe he would be able to make it. So glad he did, especially since my uncle and cousin didn't show. Yep old SPL had to roast me and do their parts as well. BEST.DARN. SURPRISE. EVER.

Also, one of my Eagles specifically planned his ECOH around my vacation plans. Yes this guy waited about 8 months so that I could attend.

As you can see, lots of differences.

One troop does 1 ECOH a year. It's done in conjunction with their CO's Scout Sunday and you easily get 5 to 12 Eagles at the event. It is literally standing room only as everyone, Eagles, Family Members, and congregation attend. The troop and CO pay for the food, drinks, etc. Council pays for the presentation kit. If you want your own ECOH, you are on your own.

Another unit I know about also does 1 ECOH a year. They let the group of Eagles decide what they want to do prior to or after the ECOH. My buddy's Eagle class decided to "fly with the Eagles" and they got a helicopter tour of the city.

One troop did absolutely nothing. I felt bad for the Eagle and his family because the family didn't know, or couldn't afford, to have food, drinks, etc.  Also the troop didn't have any ceremony; just gave him the Eagle Charge and presented the medal to him. It lasted about 5-10 minutes.

My troop growing up did individual ECOHs. Troop provided drinks and some refreshments. I bought the cake and programs.  The troop also provided the presentation kit, your nameplate on the troop's Eagle Scout plaque, and made an Eagle Scout table top for use at COHs. I admit I used that table top to reserve my seat a time or two.

Current troop has not had an Eagle in years. Hoping to have one this time next year as on Scout is pushing it. He has 5 months minimum left for Life. One of their COHs was at the local Scout camp.

One of my favorite Eagle projects was one scout organizing an oral history project of our veterans, especially WWII and Korean War vets. There's one vet I'd love to record an oral history, but a lot of what he did is still classified. He was rather upset that I discovered some info on him, but laughed when I said the report said he was CIA, when in fact he was DIA.

Did anyone else notice that the instructions for the Unit Leader Award of Merit states:

The unit committee chair completes the Unit Leader Award of Merit Nomination Form on behalf of the unit committee. For

Boy Scout troops, Varsity Scout teams, Venturing crews, and Sea Scout ships, the nomination must include endorsement

by the senior patrol leader, team captain, crew president, or ship’s boatswain, respectively.(emphasis added)

But there is no place for the youth to sign the form; they onlhy write a letter?

Why British and not Dutch, Belgian, etc? If memory serves, British Scouts served on the home front or enlisted. Scouts on the continent, especially the Dutch were the ones who served in the Resistance.

See Jan van Hoof as an example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_van_Hoof

Yes, I'm hating the MB mill aspect that is now summer camp. First 2 years was out of council, and camp was good. Went to the local council camp, and it is so scheduled, it is ridiculous. Only free time activities are at night, and you gotta sign up for them in advance if you want to do it. Otherwise it's on a space available/first come first served basis. One of my scouts retook Swimming so he could get wet in the middle of the day. I wish he would have retaken Lifesaving as well, but oh well.

But what got me was the instruction. On the waterfront 1 or 2 boats at a time, and everything was completed in 2 days. Kids got the MB, but had issues on a canoe trip the troop did a month later. One scout dropped Communications MB after the first day, but according to the advancement report, me met all but 2 requirements! Found that out this past Sunday.

I told my son his second year "No Paperpushing MBs, have fun." And while he didn't earn a single MB at camp, he had fun and learned a lot. He eventually completed 2 of the 4 he took his second year.

Update

Depending upon how you look at it, the meeting was a disaster (adult led folks) or a great learning experience (youth led folks). In a nutshell, Folks responsible for reviewing skills for camporee were not prepared. They had to add lib it. PLs  and SPL were sent copies of the camporee guide, and only 1 had his copy. Few of the Scouts knew what is goign on with camporee in 4 weeks. ON A POSITVE NOTE: adults didn't step in to help. mentor yes, but the adult stepped back and chatted. One step forward.

I am hoping an praying that Camporee will build these guys up. With the exception of campsite inspection and gateways, the entire camporee is patrol oriented. All events are awarding 1st - 3rd for the patrols, no troop level awards except camp inspection and gateway. Top 3 patrols will be recognized. Had one complaint about the top troop not getting recognized, but  told them the patrol is the foundation of Scouting.

My concern is the practice camporee date being on the calendar since January, and the new date for camporee being on the calendar since May, very few of the Scouts knew when the events were. The two mixed aged patrols only have 1/2 their members attending the practice camporee this weekend, and there is talk about merging them into one patrol for the practice, as well as for the actual camporee. I would say a step back, but in honesty it's par for the course, at the moment.

Good news is that the SPL is stepping up and leading. This has a trickle down effect and the PLs are doing a little more. So it's another step forward.

Baby steps.

The demand for up-to-date everything including BSA Spa and Resort facilities have priced many out of the market.  It's a lot easier and cheaper to run a commissary than a mess hall, permanent shelters vs. rain flies, tents with floors, flush toilets, running water at each site, WIFI, and the list goes on......

While I agree with you, some of these things are mandated by the various states and feds. And yes, some are mandated by BSA.

@SpecEdScouter

Having a camp means having a guaranteed place for events like camporee, training, day camps, etc.  There is a local facility that's a lot closer than the camp in my district, 5 minutes away compared to 25 minutes. The 5 minute camp is more primitive and has less faciltiies, so it's great for a lot of things. BUT we are subject to the owners. Currently they shut it down while the main facility, not the camp, undergoes renovations and construction. The camp is being used for storage.

@@SpEdScouter,

Why do we need summer camp? YES WE DO!

Do they need to be MB factories? No they do not.

What are some aspects about summer camp?

1. FUN

2. Place to apply Scouting for a week away from it all. One week at camp is worth a year of meetings.

3. Bonding with fellow Scouts in patrol and troop. This is a big one for new Scouts as you can read about in Phrogger's post and based upon my personal experience and observations.

4. Challenges Scouts need. As I mentioned, summer camp does not have to be a MB factory. But some camps do provide challenges that Scouts need via BSA Lifeguard, COPE, and other older scout programs. Also HA activities, i.e. backpacking, kayakaing, etc are ways for older challenge themselves. I vividly remember my canoe trip in the Canadian wilderness.

5. I don't have enough time to keep going on.

When I was in the UK, one of the Finns I worked with laughed her butt off at me wearing long sleeve shirt, sweatshirt, and field jacket when it was 50-56 degrees F (10-13 degrees F) and and she was wearing shorts and a tank top. She was from Lapland in the Arctic Circle, and the temps were a nice summer day for her.

I had my revenge though   It got above 61degrees F (16 degrees C), and she was complaining and sweating up a storm. I told her it was a nice winter day where I came from.

I just saw this:

https://voiceofscouting.org/chief-scout-executive-asks-us-serve-entire-family

Looks like the top man is looking at us going coed. Going to get interesting, especially with LDS units.

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! Sorry to hear it's under challenging circumstances though.

Hoping for some encouragement. My son crossed over to Boy Scouts at the end of last year. His den leader decided to cross all the boys early and finish Webelos I and II in one year. I did not agree to this but had no choice about it. I feel we were cheated out of a summer of Cub Scouts and a transition year. But I digress. We joined the same Boy Scout troop that his friends did.

 

Based upon my experience, you may have been cheated. Different packs do different things, so some packs begin the Webelos to Scout transition earlier than others. My old Webelos den was ready to cross over after a year, but they didn't meet the 6 months since turning 10 or 6 months since completing 4th grade requirement so they stuck it out. But they interacted with troops. On the opposite side of things, we had a pack that didn't really begin the transition process until 3 months before Crossover, not only did they have a rude awakening, they also caused major issues with their patrol as they were still in Cub Scout mode.

 

Boy Scouts is such a different program than Cub Scouts.  Yes it is completely different, to the point that many adults have a  hard time adjusting. I've found that most youth adjust easily IF they are prepared in advance. In the past few years (we were in Cubs 3 years) the Cub Scouts we were involved with made efforts to include STEM activities and things such as model rockets and planes, 3-d printing, amateur radio, etc. We also did the outdoor activities and service projects, and summer day camps were pirate themed or astronaut themed. We even had an Apollo 13 ground controller come talk to the group. He also loved the Pinewood Derby. STEM is a relatively new thing in Scouting, so new that there are some who think it actually hurts the program. Many units are not into it. But in Boy Scouts they only seem to plan traditional scouting activities, not all of which my son enjoys or is able to participate in. 20 mile hikes, kayak trips (which my son isn't allowed to participate in since he didn't go to summer camp and take the swim test), mountain biking, or rock climbing (neither of which my son has the physical strength to do or interest in). Trips are supposed to be decided upon by the youth. A variety of factors are involved in that, including the needs of the older youth.  At meetings they work on their physical fitness requirements (situps, pushups yay) and tie ropes. I didn't send him to summer camp because he's so young (and didn't want to go anyway), but we went to the family campout together and it was miserable. One of the things I push new Scouts to do is GO TO SUMMER CAMP! ( caps for emphasis, not shouting.) Some of the reasons for that is 1) Social acceptance into the troop, 2) the tremendous jump in skills and knowledge they get, and 3) Its FUN!  By social acceptance, I've found that summer camp is where the scouts in the patrol and troop really get to know one another because they are living with each other for a week. They share common experiences and bond.  I missed my first summer camp, and my old CS den mates who went were accepted more into the troop. Because I didn't go, I was still more of an outsider. By Jump in skills, I know that my buddies who went to summer camp that first summer camp back WAY ahead of me in basic outdoors skills and had a jump on me advancement wise as a result. Grant you result may vary from camp to camp, as well as year to year. But the First Year Camper Director we had back in the day made  sure you learned. No planned activities, the boys didn't even include my son in their card games or football tossing since he was the youngest one there (he's 10). Part of it is his age, but I bet a big chunck of that is that the other scouts still do not really know him sinc ehe didn't go to camp. He briefly got excited when they held troop leadership elections, and he wanted to do the drums for the opening ceremony, but he wasn't selected for anything, so that tiny bit of encoragement evaporated. Surely there's some minor leadership post they could assign so new boys feel more involved. Even if it's just "you're in charge of turning out the lights after the meeting" or something. At this stage of the game, he needs really needs to focus on learning the basic Scout - Tenderfoot- Second Class- First Class skills as well as learning the dynamics within his patrol and being responsible for patrol level duties, i.e. grubmaster, cheer master, etc. And if your troop uses Mixed aged patrols instead of New Scout Patrols, he may even be an assistant so he can learn.

 

My son is completely out of his element and has been begging me to quit since day 1, even though he enjoyed Cub Scouts. I'm not sure what to do. I think that maybe in 3 years with a little growth and maturity he may enjoy it, but how hard should I push him to stay? Will it get better? Should I shop for a new troop or wait a while? I understand that traditional scout activities are the heart of the program, and the boy-led leadership philosophy is good in theory, but we just aren't finding anything to like about it yet.

 

First and foremost BOY LED LEADERSHIP DOES WORK IF USED PROPERLY; IT IS NOT "GOOD IN THEORY!" One of the biggest complaints I have is brand new adults coming in trying to apply Cub Scouts ideas to Boy Scouts. I admit I'm just as guilty of jumping in as the rest of us old fogeys. While it is a challenge to get there, I'm facing that with my troop, IT WORKS BEST LONG TERM! As for the rest I got a few questions for ya.

 

1) Did you visit other troops, go camping with them etc? 

 

2) WHAT DOES YOUR SON WANT TO DO?

 

Everyone has an opinion on visiting troops, i.e. some only want you to visit the CO's troop, and other want you to visit several troops to get one that meets the Scout's needs. While all troops have the same ideals, goals, etc, every troop applies them differently.  Your son may want to visit other troops and get a feel for them. I know my son visited camped with one troop, and didn't like the experience. So we went looking. We found one that did a lot of mentoring with the younger Scouts, only to find that the troop folded and became part of Trails Life. 3rd troop, while having challenges, was the one he liked and is now in.

How about seeing if his old pack needs a den chief.  Best of both worlds than.  He can continue doing cub scout activities as a leader and maybe help plan some which would help him out with moving into a boy lead troop.  Good luck!

I do not recommend this. I've seen young Scouts become DCs and it has not worked out as they want too much to play and do the CS activities. I strongly suggest finding another troop.

@@SpEdScouter ,

It can be a combination of factors. I know the council I grew up in sold the original camp because of urban encroachment and the camp was too small because property owners who use to let the Scouts tramp about sold the property and the new owners said no more. What I fin ironic is that the camp was created in the 1920s, and the closest town started expanding after the 1950s. The new neighbors began complaining about the noise, traffic, etc of having a camp as their next door neighbor. Thankfully the council purchased property that was 3+ times the size of the original camp.

But I admit, I'm concerned, especially about the local camp in my district. The property around the camp is being sold off. In the past 10 years, 3 MacMansions have arisen, and a popular hiking trail that we had access to was closed off by the new property owners. And not everyone has heard that yet as it is that recent! My understanding is that a trust owns the property, so it cannot  be sold. But one SE so neglected the camp, that the only reason it was able to survive was because of individual units and OA chapters investing in it and doing repairs and maintenance. Over a 10 year period, the OA chapter alone spent $10-$12,000 alone on supplies to maintain the camp. And that doesn't include all the man-hours involved, or what local units did. Under the new NCAP program, I don't know what will happen.

 This would slow the rush to Eagle and is not what the BSA wants. One can lecture and hold discussions with dozens of scouts at once. Hard to supervise dozens of cooks at once.

And that is part of the problem, people at national having little or no experience as a youth in the program coming up with rules. Also there is a lot of pressure from parents, as well as leaders too. I had a leader at camp tell me one of my scouts was wasting his time because he was taking swimming MB a second time because he wanted to swim during the middle of the day, and the only way to do that was to take Swimming MB again, or Lifesaving MB again. OK I admit I wished he would have taken Lifesaving a second time, butonly because I wanted to be an active victim on him

@@thrifty

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!

I've been lurking on these forums recently while looking for a better understanding of all things "scout."  I've found a lot of your opinions on various topics informative.  I'm definitely jealous of how well-run your troops seem to be.  I think some of my questions are relating to this topic, I hope I'm not hijacking the thread.  How old are the boys in your leadership positions?

 

Current troop is not well organized, but has so much potential 15 y.o. First Class SPL, 15 year old Star PL, 13yo Tenderfoot PL who needs to do a 5 mile hike and can go fro Second Class and First Class, and a 12 y.o. Tenderfoot PL

 

I keep reading various comments about adults interfering with boy lead groups and the boys should be running the troop, etc...  Our troop is boy lead but I have concerns about this.  Our SPL recently turned 16.  He's one of the oldest boys in the troop after several aged out in the past 2 years.  Our PL's are 12 or 13 and the APL's have just turned 12.  The SPL is very mature for his age and deserves the position but could use some more experience.  I'm not trying to undermine the contributions these younger boys can make to the troop and they do work with the newest scouts but shouldn't there be more adult involvement when you are working with kids this age?  I keep my opinions to myself but I just don't get it.

 

NO (emphasis), more adult involvement is not needed UNLESS A) Health and Safety, i.e Scout gets caught in a riptide, or B) It's skills the Scouts, don't know, i.e. we had no Scouts save 1 with any backpackign expereince. So he and dad taught backpacking skills. My question is this : How can the scouts get leadership expereince if we do not give them the opportunity to lead? Our job as adults is to guide and mentor. I usually use the Socratic Method of asking questions about their performance, how they did, how they can improve etc.  Wise man who came out of retirement to save the BSA said ti best when refering to the Scouts and leadership: "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!"

 

A few examples - A PL sent out an email asking for his patrol to meet up to go shopping for groceries prior to camping.  It was 3:30 in the afternoon on a weekday.  How are any of the others going to get to the store if their parents are at work?  No arrangements such as sharing a ride were suggested.  The boys at 2016 summer camp voted to have 2017 camp at the same place.  SM paid the deposit while there.  Shouldn't that have required at least some discussion with parents or committee?  Most of the boys don't even know how much it cost.  It was an expensive camp and I know some parents were not happy about this choice made without them. 

 

Regarding the shopping, that a time for the SPL if possible, or an adult Scouter to sit down, ask questions, and get them to realize they need to think things through. Regarding summer camp, the Scouts are the ones who are suppose to decide where they go. Sure they can get some input and ideas from the adults. BUT THE SCOUTS DECIDE! ( emphasis) As for not knowing how much it costs, why don't they. A scout is suppose to pay his own way. Ok I'm guilty on that, but oldest know what I'm paying. And I'm in the process of trying to get the PLC to get some findraisers going. With middel son become a Boy Scout in Decmeber, I'm in trouble

 

 

Our son consistently says that they don't do anything during their weekly meetings.  I recently witnessed a PLC for the first time and most of the boys sat there just staring at the table, waiting to go home.  The SM did a good job of "forcing" some of them to contribute but why wouldn't more adult input be desired? 

 

Who is leading the meetings adults or Scouts? What are the topiucs they are working on and does it interest the Scouts, or something the adults want them to do? The reason why adult input is not desired UNLESS asked, is that it is EXTREMELY EASY TO TAKE OVER ( emphasis again). Scouts must have ownership, they must come up with the ideas, make the decisions, execute the plans they make etc. if adults do ti for them A) they do not learn B) they do not own the program, become bored and dissilusioned and quit. Or in a current case, are staying in to earn Eagle so they can get their driver's license.

 

Long-winded post for a newbie.  No, it wasn't. Good questions

That's sort of like asking: if your boys want a youth-led movement, then why don't they get their leaders to adjust accordingly?

Isn't it?

 

From the few troops I've meet since my daughter left GSUSA, I've seen movement in that direction.

True. But a lot of the demand for the BSA to go fully coed is coming from parents. If the girls, and especially their parents, demanded change, it would come. It may be slow, but it will come. And you admit there is movement in that direction.

Me personally, I have mixed emotions. On one hand I know how important it for males to be by themselves and be guys. And I admit I am concerned about how the program will change. Let's face it there have been changes in the program since female SMs and ASMs have been allowed. And yes, I admit I did have a negative experience in my coed Sea Scout ship back in the day. The male Sea Scouts were forced to do things for the female members, and they did not carry their own weight.

But on the other hand, I know everything else in our society is going coed. I have also met female Venturers who pulled their own weight, and even carried their brother's weight.

If we use history as a basis, then things will change. When BSA allowed female SMs and ASMs, BSA had to change how training was conducted because most, by no means all but most, women Scouters did have the outdoor skills needed for Scouting. Further none of the ladies had the experience of the Patrol Method, the foundation of Scouting. Even with today's training there is little to no training on that.

My question is this: if the girls want an active outdoor program, then by don't they get GSUSA to change their program?